“Goodbye Again” with Candace Cahill

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 69 and we're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun. In this episode we interview Candace Cahill and she is a first mother who is from Alaska and she in this episode has a great conversation with Lanette that exposes a lot of the really raw emotions of being a first parent and I really enjoyed listening to her perspective and point of

0:30view and I think toward the end of the episode she points this out and I think it's something that we've really tried to do in this sphere but we love highlighting different aspects of the adoption constellation and I'm glad that we get to add Candace's voice to this episode and to our perspectives. Yeah this is a really raw and emotional discussion and conversation and Candace is so vulnerable and open sharing some really challenging things which I really appreciate her

1:04sharing with us, letting us learn with her and from her. You will feel so enriched and that you'll be able to come away with a deeper understanding and I think some really great thoughts on how we can make things better. Yeah so here's our conversation with Candace Cahill.

1:37We are here on the podcast with Candace. Candace thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. To start off can you tell us a bit about who you are? Yes so my name is Candace Cahill. I currently live in Denali, Alaska, so very remote Alaska. I'm originally from Minnesota and I work as a National Park Ranger in the summer months. In the winter I'm an artist and I do everything from writing, music, silversmithing. It's really my passion,

2:10it's art and the National Park just allows me to do my art in the winter. So yeah. Oh that's neat. It's beautiful up in Alaska. We've been planning a trip and I hope we can make it to Denali. It looks so amazing. It is amazing. Oh and I should also say I am married. I've been married for over 25 years now and no other children. Yeah all right so can we go ahead and jump in? I'm going to start with you. All right so can we go ahead and jump in and just hear your adoption story,

2:42whatever you'd like to share. Absolutely. So I got pregnant when I was 20 and ended up giving birth at 21. I was with my boyfriend at the time so I kind of went into it just assuming I would be a mom. Whether he was there or not but he was there so I was like oh great you know. I've had plenty of people in my family, both close family and extended family who had gotten

3:14pregnant when they were younger than me even you know 16, 17, 18 and they kept their children and the boyfriends all left so I was like oh you know whether he's with me or not I'll be fine. What ended up happening is about almost five months long my boyfriend was like you know we should go to counseling and try to figure out all this you know and but the way that he presented it was was like we're going to go to get parenting counseling to learn how to do this together

3:45you know. Not that we were going to get married or anything but we were just going to figure it. That's that was what I understood but when we got there it was actually an adoption agency and I felt tricked and but at the same time the the person that we ended up seeing was wonderful and she was her immediately I felt comfortable with her she was kind she was compassionate and really ended up filling a mother role for me which I didn't really have right. So I ended

4:17up continuing to see her even though we ended up my boyfriend I ended up breaking up I continued to see her because what she presented was we're going to do some counseling that will let you like decision making counseling. So we're going to go through some things about what parenting would look like and and and just get a sense right which was great right. So you know going through budgeting figuring out you know how would you get to work how you know where would I live I mean all of those things it was very helpful but at the same time part of the the process was

4:54learning the way that they presented it was we're going to go through your family history and take a look at at you know what your family has been like and you know so so it was things like looking at history of alcoholism drug abuse neglect violence all of those things in your family so that you can see what the patterns are right. So you know what kind of what typically to expect because what they're saying is that you know these are the patterns in your life you can see them we go back we went back to generations generations and you could see all of these patterns that have

5:27happened generation after generation in my family and and rather than presenting it like okay now we learn this and we can learn the skills to not repeat that was not how it was presented it was like I was destined to repeat these same things and and it what it ended up doing is just made me feel worse about myself I already had pretty low self-esteem as it was and and so it was valuable but it was also not a good thing in that sense but what ended up happening was I mean there were

6:01lots of things but essentially it came down to I didn't think I was going to be able to do it I didn't think that I was I would have what I needed I was poor I didn't have an education I didn't have any support you know none of those things and and because they didn't present it like I can learn but then on the heels of that said but we have so many families that would be perfect we have we have couples that are ideal in every way and they're ready there you know so and and then

6:32you can pick them right so I was forcibly I mean yes yeah yes yes but the fact that they would let me pick them made a huge difference because now I could look for somebody completely opposite from what I had right and it gave me the way that I describe it often is it gave me a sense of control and what I felt was an uncontrollable situation so I latched on to that and and and the family

7:03that I ended up picking both my ex-boyfriend and I chose together that was actually the very last time I ever saw him I haven't seen him since was the day we selected the parents and got to meet them one time after Michael that's our son Michael was placed with them and then would get updates once a year so that was another thing like that they would give me letters and pictures once a year to let me know that he was okay I couldn't I couldn't contact them in person I had to go

7:34through the agency but it was like okay the I've given them all the lists of things that I want and then they will keep me updated and I will know that he's okay right so that was really important that those updates were going to be coming and that was every year that was the thing that I looked forward to is being able to get those updates on his birthday but then they stopped and when he was eight and I you know actually they came late on when he was six and I went called the agency and was like you know you need to check in and they did so I got a couple of months late

8:07and then the next one also came late and when he was eight I went to the agency went there in person I'm like you guys need to figure this out and they're like oh no no no you signed away your rights long ago and this is not it's not a legal legally binding thing so we can't do anything and I was devastated because I had no recourse whatsoever so fast forward to two days before his 18th birthday we got a letter in the mail through the agency from the adoptive family and that was when we discovered that his adoptive mom had passed away when he was

8:4110 and that was a big reason why communication had ended she had been very ill for many years and but the connection was remade so we reunited and over the phone we talked over the phone did intermittent texting and in emails for a couple of years and then he asked to meet me in person so we went down to Minnesota and met him I had one beautiful day together and then again went back

9:12to kind of intermittent contact I gave him all the control for contact because I was advised that that was what you need to do and but then he passed away in his sleep before we had ever had a chance to meet again so I feel like in terms of my story when it comes to adoption and relinquishment is I had really blocked it all out after the adoption because I couldn't deal with the grief losing him a second time brought all of that back on top of the new grief so it's been almost 10

9:44years now since he passed away and I just now finally feel like I'm coming out of it yeah so hard wow can we go back a little bit absolutely so when you went to the adoption agency for the counseling you were not thinking adoption at all you were planning on parenting and they essentially talked you out of that and then that and pressure from the ex-boyfriend and pressure from his family all of those that there were there were a lot of coercive elements and manipulative things going on

10:14not just there elsewhere as well yeah okay did you feel like you had anyone who was supporting you and helping you feel like you could do this you could parent if that was what you chose no no there wasn't anybody no and I didn't I didn't seek anybody out either I didn't know I didn't know what I didn't know you know I thought how that saying is and and yeah yeah you have a pretty good relationship now with Michael's adoptive father and step yes yes okay I do we have a

10:47beautiful relationship and you know he he was when I was choosing his letter was what made me choose them the agency was gatekeepers so they were they gave me who they thought I should have so they gave me four files essentially and and but I read through them all but his letter was the only one that was handwritten and that made a difference to me as a writer as someone who who likes it's more personal it's more intimate and so he was a big reason why I chose them because he was very in

11:21touch with his emotions his ability to communicate to talk about them that it wasn't you know when we met in person you know we both cried or we all cried and he wasn't ashamed of it you know and his his the older son John who's also adopted came to that meeting Michael did not come because we figured it would be too hard but John came John was four and one of the most significant memories from that day is you know we were all talking and crying and you know one of the most awkward

11:52kinds of situations you can ever imagine but John was coloring on the floor and suddenly he he perked up and he said you know my dad cries all the time and their tears of joy is what he says and and I'm just like wow okay that's it was just very impactful for me so when when Michael died and we got the call from David you know he was immediately like yeah you need to be here you know because I was like I have to come and he's like yes you need to be here and when I got there

12:22Kim and everybody else in the family completely open arms for us and being there and and every person that we met that they introduced us to I was introduced as his mom as Michael's mom and I had never experienced that and it was a profound shift for me you know claiming that part of my identity too late a hard beautiful it's so many emotions as I hear you talk it's yeah

12:55yeah and and like with David and and the family you know writing my book you know when I told them that I was going to I wanted to write my story completely supportive in every single way gave I gave them the opportunity would you want me to change names or hide identity they're like absolutely not you know so just completely in in my corner the family they had a group of like 15 that came up to Alaska a few years ago and spent spent some time up here and and we've spent you know weekends at each other's homes and you know for us it's or at least for me David and the whole

13:32family contain everything that remains of Michael they have everything that that's left they're my connection and I and I'm pretty sure when I show up at their door and sit at their table they see Michael he looked just like me you know so it's it's our connection and Michael brought us together and it will keep us together yeah beautiful wow um I don't think we've talked about your book yet you mentioned it just a moment ago so I thought maybe we could have you talk about sure yeah um

14:03so the book is titled goodbye again and um and it's really just my my story of Michael in my life so it actually begins the first day essentially that we go to that the to the counselor um and to takes me through all the way through his life and and just dealing with how did I come to that decision how did I get there um it because it wasn't just you know in terms of the agency when

14:33I talk about some of the coercion and manipulation there yes that was there but it was also my choice I did make this choice how did I make that choice right how does someone choose to really push their rights over their child it's a really difficult thing to try to explain to people so the best way for me to do it was to write it as if the reader is in my shoes um so it goes to that it goes through dealing with you know the reading the the updates and looking at the pictures and then they're

15:05suddenly being gone and how do you know how do I now survive that um you know but each of these stages of having Michael in my life having him taken away bringing him back having him taken away you know that ebb and flow and how I survived it because it it hasn't been easy it's really the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole life um and then you know it's the the book itself is about child loss all types of child loss it's about motherhood how we define motherhood um how

15:40motherhood showed up in my life and and there are many people that I've talked to that I've read the books they say we connect to so many parts of that you know my relationship with my mother my relationship with Michael's mother you know all of those things right um but in the end it's probably the the biggest thing the book is really about is how two things can be true at one time that placing Michael for adoption was the hardest thing I ever did hardest decision I ever

16:11made um I have regrets about it but it was also a wise choice at the time because I don't know that I would have survived it I don't know that he would have survived it um you know Michael's death he he it's like tragic it's absolutely tragic um but what I've gained through my relationship with with his family is absolutely beautiful it's sublime um and I'm really really fortunate to have that adoption so complicated there's it's so much juxtaposition where it's insane how much

16:50exists in one space right beautiful and traumatic and hard and just all jumbled together I would love to hear what your thoughts are regarding that adoption is beautiful narrative yeah I that that's been like the hardest um thing for me uh because you know when I when I was going through campsting you know that was what they were saying adoption is this beautiful wonderful choice and you know

17:21everything is is going to be perfect the family will be perfect um and you know so so I and I absolutely bought into it I absolutely bought into it because you know coming from you know the poverty and the the abusive background that I came from because I had a lot of bad things in my my childhood um yeah that looked perfect it looked like the perfect solution right and but what when all was said and done the the grief I felt the sorrow I felt um I didn't feel acknowledged

17:57in that at all I didn't feel like I could talk about it to anybody um you know if if if somebody found out that that I had you know relinquished or placed you know I mean language and terminology is really important right and one of the ways they turn it into this beautiful and wonderful thing is I placed my baby for adoption right I didn't give him away didn't relinquish him I placed him right um and that's a very specific tool that's used to coerce people in my opinion

18:28but you know that if I said something the fact that somebody would say oh that's so brave and you're so strong and and so selfless and all these things I didn't feel any of those things right so there was this cognitive dissonance that was going on and I didn't know how to deal with that and I wasn't given the tools to so it was yeah that that was such a difficult thing um by the way basically it prevented me from talking about it because I didn't feel that it was

19:02beautiful right yeah that makes sense yeah did you get any kind of counseling after placement after Michael was born so so the agency offered um some counseling for the first year um I didn't really take them up on it um and then it all just vanished basically I wasn't offered after that wow no no and and I imagine had I gone to them and asked they might have but I didn't know to ask

19:32I didn't you know and again I was really focusing on disassociating from it I didn't I didn't want to deal with it the only time I let myself really um think about it and be enmeshed in it was when the updates came yeah yeah wow so how do you feel like others could be more supportive of these first parents and maybe even help before these kinds of situations arise yeah I think you know I think what's really really important is we need to be uh well we pretty much need to try to prevent

20:08them from becoming first parents you know we need to give them those resources um information and the support um you know there's current research being done and there's a book being written by Gretchen Sisson that's going to be talking about how the majority of first mothers come to it not really out of choice but because they feel backed into a corner because they don't have support they don't have finances um they have other children that they they already can't take care of I mean all of these things that but they're choosing a permanent solution to really a

20:40temporary problem yeah and yeah and I think that we you know we could be spending a lot more time effort and and financial resources to helping um young pregnant people earlier on in their situation and giving them the the resources and education the other thing too that was really lacking was and it because it wasn't really known back in my day um but what was lacking was the recognition that adoption that severance of the child from the mother is a lifelong trauma and it's and and even

21:17though infants are pre-verbal they are traumatized um and it lasts their whole life right um if I had known that there's no way there's absolutely no way um and that's where a lot of my regret and shame and guilt come from is what did I do um because I was told again it's beautiful and and they're a blank slate you know my son would be a blank slate you know get it get them to the new family as soon

21:47as you can so that they can imprint on them and all of that and and I believed it all you know and I think everybody did I mean I don't I actually don't think that like my counselor um or really the agency necessarily itself they weren't doing these things to be cruel they weren't they were they thought it was also the the wise choice the smart thing to do right because they didn't know yeah yeah because they did and they didn't have the education that they needed to understand

22:17that the lifelong impact that this will have so yeah so if we can if we can do more both about educating people about the lifelong impact of relinquishment on the children and on the first families um and that and just basically a lot of more support like financial support yeah I think those are both key thank you how do you think your experiences with Michael and with relinquishing him how do you think that led you to where you are today yeah I think that that single decision

22:51um at 21 years old has shaped everything that has come after um probably the biggest uh impact is I would have children I would both have Michael or have had Michael um but I probably would have had other children too um the choice to not have children any more children was a direct result of not wanting or not not being unable to try to explain to Michael why one child another child was

23:23good enough to keep and he wasn't I could never do that so yeah I think that's the biggest thing but everything else that has come after has been impacted by the fact that I am a first mother looking back I know it's impossible to really know this but how do you think having an open adoption from the start might have changed your experience when I look back um and I have journals I have a lot of things that I've used to really help me transport myself back to know what I was thinking and feeling at the time when I look back um you know getting the updates was paramount to how I

24:03felt now even though I was still dissociating and really not dealing with things very well had those updates continued I think I would be in a much better place I would have been a much better place all the way through his childhood just knowing that he was okay um you know having some communication between us would have been paramount because I still think that Michael you know his family were wonderful he had a wonderful family he grew up in this amazing community with with an amazing

24:37extended family I mean he pretty much did have everything that I wanted him to have um so had I known it would have been a lot better and I think that's I think I can say that confidently as well because we have this great relationship now yeah yeah I feel like your perspective is so unique and so valuable because you do have that relationship now where you didn't have before but and it's of course so hard to know what it would have been like if you could have had that

25:08while he was young as well and just throughout his life yeah absolutely yeah and I think you know one of the reasons one of many reasons but one of the big reasons that that I ended up choosing um that family with you know David and them is they specifically laid it out that they would be talking about adoption he would never not know he wasn't adopted they he would he would they would share things about me with him you know that it would even though we wouldn't be connected physically

25:38there would be an openness about his who he is and his identity and I think that um that's key and part of that that open it when I and I guess what I what I'm trying to say is when I talk about openness I'm not talking about specifically physical openness I'm talking about openness of mind and being willing to communicate and talk about it because I think that there's a lot of or my experience is in meeting people there are a lot of adoptive parents who are not comfortable

26:08even talking about adoption to their with their kids and and I think that's so important um I have yet to meet an adopted person an adult adopted person who hasn't at some point dealt with feelings of abandonment um and you know dreaming or thinking about the ghost kingdom you know what I mean when I say ghost kingdom yeah um so every single one even if they have had the most perfect beautiful wonderful family right they still have those and if they can't share that with their

26:39adopted parents they're they're going to miss out on so much the child's going to miss out but so are the parents um so the parents need to be comfortable and basically what that means they need to do their work they need to have gone into it having done their work because I've heard too many stories where like let's say a child asks about their birth family I just even have just a random question so and but the adoptive parent if they haven't done their work they may feel threatened by that they don't really have any reason to but they feel threatened by it just

27:12by the child thinking about them so their automatic response is oh but but we love you so much and and we chose you and you know all of those things but what that does is it makes a conversation about the adoptive parent not about the child and and so they see these things and then they don't aren't able to acknowledge what the child is feeling and experiencing and and even though I think those responses are they're well meaning they're not meant to be mean or anything but it results in the child learning that the topic is off limits you don't want to make your parent uncomfortable

27:47you don't want them to feel sad you don't want you know all of that and that's particularly true for adopted people because they've already been abandoned once and they're not going to take a chance that they'd be abandoned again because that's what it feels like to a kid and to adults too actually I know adults that feel the same way so yeah yeah yeah I agree 100 it's very well said so just one more question kind of on this thread of open adoption relationships and that openness since forming this relationship with David how has this kind of open adoption relationship

28:22affected your processing your healing or your trauma yeah I I really don't think that I would be anywhere near as far along in my recovery without him you know when after Michael died my husband Tom complete actually I'll talk about Tom probably a little later but but he's super like the most supportive person I could have ever asked for right but in the months after Michael passed I just felt so lost I just didn't I didn't know how

28:54to to find help and and you know like I was going online and I was trying like I found compassionate friends which is for parents who have lost children and and they had some good resources and and I could read some things but it wasn't quite right right because I'd get into these groups like online or things and people are like well tell us about him and I didn't know anything and I didn't know anything so so suddenly now I'm grief-stricken so then I went to like first moms

29:24groups and that helped a little bit but it still wasn't quite right well I ended up coming to a place where I was like you know what there's one person who knows exactly how I feel and that's David he has had a double loss as well he lost his wife and now he lost his child I just happened to lose the same person twice and we I sent sent an email to him you know it was probably I think I think two months after Michael died and just really was as vulnerable as I could be and just be like I am lost I'm flailing I don't know what to do and he wrote right back and he says I am

29:58exactly in the same place and that was really when things blossomed and we just back and forth emails back and forth back and forth and just really giving each other the opportunity to vent to express to be sad to not have to explain to anybody and we really just bloomed and blossomed after that but yeah I really believe that had David not been open to that communication I wouldn't be where I am right now for sure that vulnerability that's really yeah yeah and and his again the openness

30:34that he had so like that I want to share this this little story when we when I went and met Michael for the first time that one day that we had together it was Michael and I and his dad David and my husband Tom and we spent the whole day together and then we ended up going out to a restaurant and we're sitting at this little restaurant and and and people are walking by and saying hi right and and a person stopped and be like hi David how are you you know and Michael's there and they're talking and David immediately turns to me and he's oh this is Michael's mom

31:06like right away that very first meeting and I just about fell out of my chair because I'd never been so open and he just automatically was and that has been the case from day one and it has really made all the difference that's beautiful yeah yeah so there's a lot of unethical and questionable practices in adoption I feel like we've talked about a fair amount yeah what do you wish that potential adoptive parents would think about or know before considering adoption in light of those

31:41practices you know I think that the most important thing and it and it I'm hoping it's becoming more common but they need to realize that although adoption can be beautiful it begins with trauma it begins by severing a child from their their family right the they need to understand they need to get education about the long-term impacts of that you know studies have shown that adopted

32:13people are more likely to have suicidal thoughts more likely to attempt suicide higher incidents of mental health issues they're more highly represented in mental health facilities all of these things right and and I hope there are more studies coming out soon because I feel like that's just an area that's really been missed so they need to know that going into it and I think going into it then you can prepare you can you can you can if you know that your child or children is going to be dealing with issues of abandonment you can be prepared to look for the signs and be ready

32:48um and and that's so incredibly valuable but you can't get there if you don't have the education if you're not if you're not open to it or you're not given it um and I think that's super important Well said. What advice would you give to other first parents who are searching for their children or hoping to be searched for? Yeah you know it's so so hard I think that the searching I you know I you know I am fortunate I didn't have to search he found me right away he wanted to find me right away

33:22so I don't really have great insights into while they're searching what I can say though is the number one most important thing if they do reconnect is to let that adopted person lead the way let them make the decisions about how the relationship is going to develop how I mean all of it they they need to have that um control over it because they need we need to remember that they didn't have choice and even if we were coerced even if we were in a position as the as the first

33:54parent where we didn't feel like we had a choice we're still the adult we still yeah there's still responsibility that falls on our shoulders so we need to let the adoptee take complete control over all of it and be as open as we can and it's the that's the hardest thing to do in my opinion yeah well said what advice would you give to other first parents or others in the community who are processing trauma and loss therapy find a find a good therapist adoption competent

34:33therapist for first parents relinquishment competent because there's a difference between adoption and relinquishment okay so first parents need to have um adoption competent or relinquishment competent or trauma informed because it technically is very it's a trauma if they can't find someone or don't have the money to pay for for therapy which is because it's really expensive it's hard to find someone they need to join a first parent support group

35:04so basically find your tribe i know that the very first time that i got into a room with other first parents um it was the relief that i didn't have to explain anything they knew exactly where i was coming from there was no judgment there i can't i can't overemphasize how important it was to just be in a room with people that knew exactly what i had been through yeah yeah and and most of those you can find they're free you can find them online now you

35:37can find you know the in-person and online and yeah there's there's great great um groups out there right now for support thank you yeah great advice and then you've also talked about your husband a bit i would love to hear more about how he has supported you so so i first of all am super lucky to have such a great spouse um so tom and i've known each other since we were kids we knew each other you know in high school we were just friends back then we didn't get together as a couple until we were 27 but he knew me when i was pregnant and actually he's the only person

36:13who felt my tummy when i was about outside of family because i was pretty much alone um but he he saw me when i was eight months pregnant when he came over and visited um we hadn't seen each other in over a year he was shocked that i was pregnant um and but he came over and he sat with me and i basically filled him in on what was happening and and what i was going to do and and he held my hand and just let me cry and didn't judge me didn't demand anything

36:44didn't try to make it better didn't try to fix it um and then when we got together it was six years after michael was born you know he already knew the history which was helpful but i remember the first michael's first birthday when we were together i about two weeks ahead of time i said um michael's birthday is coming up and it's going to be hard it's always hard and i just need you to know that it's i'm not going to be very present essentially and he turned to me it's like oh

37:15what should we do to celebrate and i'm like i don't celebrate this this is not a celebratory thing he's like yes it is you gave birth you have a son it's his birthday and so he took me out to dinner and from that initial moment first of all he tried to form it in a way that i could find some beauty in it for myself that um to try to find my sense of being you know i may not be a parent but i'm still a mother right and he tried to try to point that out to me but since then every

37:50single birthday anniversary christmas mother's day all those tom about two weeks ahead of time it's like how you doing how's this year what would you like to do this year do you need time alone do you need a hot bubble bath do you want to go out to dinner you know and just giving me the opportunity to think about it ahead of time helped me prepare and gave me permission to prepare and so i think that's one of the number one things anybody who is supporting someone can do is be present you

38:23don't have to try to fix it and then just help the person find their own answers yeah but he taught tom has been amazing and when when michael died he was right by my side and and uh has just supported me so so much for anybody who reads the book you you will get a very good sense of tom and i've i've had a couple of people more than a couple i've had a bunch of people that they'll write me it's like tom can't be that good he can't be that nice can't you know and i'm like when it comes to michael he is he has just been a stellar um person sometimes he can be not a nice guy and we certainly

39:00still fight but when it comes to michael he is yeah he's been the best support person i could have ever asked for that is amazing great advice too i love that so be present yeah i'll just be there to help as you work through yeah yeah bounce off ideas is a great way yeah thank you for sharing that um do you have any other thoughts on ways that others can support first parents or others

39:30through traumas and struggles uh you know i think that there's what i've done is i think somewhat unconventional in that because well partly because i live in remote alaska i don't have access to um you know in-person therapy i don't you know a lot of those things and zoom therapist is fairly new right um so i really used a lot of more unconventional ways um and learning to do things on my own yeah i i wish i had better things to offer i think that was great advice

40:07all right what do you feel like some of the biggest challenges the adoption community faces are okay challenges so i think that it's actually hard to narrow down i for me but but there are yeah there's a lot of things that that are that come up for me um i think some of the biggest ones um i was trying to narrow it down because you gave me the question ahead of time i think ethics money and secrecy um so in talking about those things um when it comes to ethics and this is specifically

40:42when we're talking about first parents so i think there needs to be a requirement for comprehensive education regarding the impact of relinquishment on the relinquishing parents of the child i think i think there needs to be a nationwide laws to prevent flying pregnant parents to adoption friendly states um i think there needs to be implementation of a standard waiting period before parental rights can be terminated i i'm actually i'm horrified that in some states um

41:15people who have just given birth sign away the rights like 48 hours i it just no that should not be allowed and then there's a whole bunch more but those are kind of the real specific things there um when it in terms of of as they pertain to adopted people i think there needs to be legal recognition of their human rights and civil rights um for all adult adopted people i personally advocate for opening all government documents as they pertain to you know to adopt these historical

41:47genetic legal identity all of that um including an unaltered birth certificate so one of the things that happens in adoption in the u.s in order for the adoption to happen they lose their identity the person you know they they that original birth certificate is sealed up and tucked away never to be seen again and a new altered and what some people just say false birth certificate is issued um that's you know that's taking away somebody's identity and i don't think that should be happening

42:19um i think in general of course money is a huge problem adoption's a multi-billion dollar industry in the u.s um i think we could make it a requirement that any information about fees paid or to be paid should be available to all parties ahead of time including the birth family you know um i think that needs again uh transparency there needs to be transparent yeah absolutely i think another big one is educating adoption professionals we need to implement balanced

42:52trauma-informed educational resources um for people that are working um in adoption and it needs to happen at the college level like in social work programs in psychology programs but it also means that it can be also implemented through continuing education for people that are already out in the field um and then probably the number one most important thing we need to listen to adopted people um their lived experiences should be guiding everything that we're doing to create

43:22change and adoption yeah that was incredibly well said oh my goodness thank you you're welcome that was a great list i can tell that you were very informed and that you've been researching and and and i just so you know i am planning to use my story my memoir as a case study and how things did work well and how they didn't work well and how how we can how we can learn lessons um and and find ways to educate people about openness and adoption about ethics all of those

43:54things yeah really important wow that's incredible that was fantastic i don't even feel like asking me to follow up questions that was so good all right do you feel like you want to talk at all about how perceptions have shifted over time um so i know it's like for me i'll just address i think this briefly um is you know for many adopted people and i think first parents um and perhaps this is true for adoptive parents but i haven't talked to them about that specifically um you

44:26can certainly share if you have anything but the the terminology of coming out of the fog right i was definitely in the fog for a very very very long time and so in terms of my perception a lot of that changed specifically by listening to adult adopted people but it was even more than that so my first experience being in a support group with mixed with people from the all the constellation

44:57right so so birth parents adopted parents and adopted people um i sat in that room and they gave the adopted people first um voice because again they were the ones that never had a voice in all of this and i sat there and every single person that shared um i related to it and then when i came out of that meeting i was like oh my god i'm adopted i did not i i was

45:32adopted so i my mother divorced my my birth father when i was about two months old she remarried right away and her second husband forced my birth father to relinquish his rights and a new birth certificate was issued and i didn't find out until i was about 13 years old now when i found out i was happy because my stepfather or my dad who i knew of as my dad had sexually abused me so when

46:06i found out he wasn't actually my real father i was ecstatic and i didn't really care who the other guy was i was just glad that this guy wasn't right but it took until literally in my 40s for me to recognize that i had extreme feelings of abandonment i mean my father didn't protect me from this guy who sexually abused me my father left me he signed away his rights so i all of

46:37those feelings that i remember having as a kid came flooding back and i'm like oh my god i did that to my son it was horrible um but valuable because it really did help me come out of the fog i hope that made sense ah wow wow yeah that's heavy that's a lot it's a lot yeah yeah and and you know just yeah reeling from trying to figure out all these connections and how important it is

47:12again how important it is to have honesty and openness i mean if i had known all along i think it would have been different you know so yeah yeah but yeah my i feel like i have done a major shift in my perceptions from from even the time that michael and i were first reunited until now yeah well i really appreciate you sharing all of these thoughts and experiences do you have anything else you'd like to talk about i don't think so i really appreciate

47:45i really appreciate the opportunity to come and talk with you um i think that really your role as adoptive parent and what you're doing with this podcast is absolutely one of the most important things you're reaching people who i can't reach without you right you you have a connection and you're sharing information that's going to be so valuable to to really creating better lives for everybody yeah thank you that is absolutely our goal and just like you've talked about the

48:20importance of listening and transparency and just openness to learning more it's such a huge long process and i really appreciate you sharing and helping us that puzzle thank you thank you so much Wow what a great conversation with Candace. Candace we're so grateful for you in sharing your story with us and especially helping us see from a different perspective. I learned a lot as

48:50I listened to your conversation it was great. One of my big takeaways from this discussion was when Candace talked about how we should be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to do that, I think it's something we do need to be talking about. How can we help avoid situations where trauma through adoption is going to happen right? Like obviously we feel like we've been super blessed by adoption but i don't know what our kids are going to feel as they grow

49:21up but it's not like we're living in a world where we don't have to be happy about it but it's not like we're living in a world where it's not going to be happy about it. It's not going to be a they grew up, but if we can create a society where we're supporting each other better and making the need for adoption less frequent, I think that's a great goal. Yeah. I think something that really stood out to me as an adoptive parent, uh, was around her conversation about talking about adoption with adoptees, especially

49:58as they're younger. She highlighted that she knows of some where adoptive parents just don't make that part of the conversation or it's not a safe conversation for children to, to talk to their parents about. And for me, and I think for anyone who has adopted or is considering adoption, we need to be comfortable having really open conversations with our children about adoption and especially as a parent being okay when the feelings toward

50:31adoption aren't always positive because they won't always be. And we need to be okay having those conversations and being able to kind of check our ego at the door and help our kids have conversations that they need to have so that they feel whole and heard and can question things. Yeah, I love that creating that safety. I think she said psychological safety, which is one of my favorite terms anyway. But yeah, we want to create that safe space, that psychological safety where our kids feel like they can really open up and share what they're feeling.

51:03We want that to be a safe thing for all adoptees. Yeah. I have so many good takeaways that I'm working with from this episode and I'm just really grateful to Candace. Me too. I also did think it was so beautiful how she and Michael's adoptive father built this really beautiful relationship after tragedy and through so much grief. But I did really think that was so poignant that they both had this tether to one another where they were able to fill some of that void, obviously not

51:35like really fill it, but to help and to grieve together. I thought that was so beautiful. Yeah. And I think it just highlights the importance of connection in the adoptions world and the adoption space. I agree. Yeah. We need each other in this community. Yeah, we need each other. We can process trauma and understand perspectives when we have each other. I think that's beautiful. Thanks so much again to Candace for sharing her story with us.

52:07And thanks to each of you for listening to the Open Adoption Project. We'll be back in your feed in two weeks.

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