Caregiver Discussion of “Instant Family”

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 70 for the Nelsons. I'm Lanette and I'm Shaun. In today's episode we continue our discussion of adoption in the media and particularly we look at the movie Instant Family. In leading this discussion we have Alisha and Shane back on the podcast. They were in a previous episode talking about their experience as foster parents and now they're leading a discussion about the themes in the movie Instant Family and answering

0:31questions from listeners regarding what foster care looks like and what some of those realities and expectations are. During the episode you'll hear a couple audio clips from the movie. We recommend that you watch the movie and you'll understand a lot more but I think you'll get a pretty good sense for the scenes as you listen to them. Yeah so we think it's a really helpful episode. It's an interesting discussion for sure. Something I thought was kind of funny was that one of my very favorite people that we follow on Instagram is a foster

1:01parent named Laura and she's at foster dot parenting and she posted I think it was the day after we had our discussion where she just talked about how she personally really doesn't like this movie and doesn't feel like she connects well with it. Whereas I've also talked to many other foster parents who feel like it really just feels so true to life and true to their experiences. So of course there's going to be a lot of different experiences, a lot of different opinions on this movie. So this is only a snippet of some opinions but we hope

1:31it's really helpful for you and enjoyable to listen to. All right well we'll jump to that conversation now. We're gonna get started but we thought before we jumped in that we would do some brief introductions. Shayna and Alisha do you want to just introduce yourselves briefly? Yeah Alisha and I we're the Gallagers. We live in the Bay Area and we have been doing foster care since about 2020. I'm an engineer here

2:02in the Bay Area. But yeah that's that's the really short version. Alisha is going to talk a little bit more about our fostering situation. Yeah I'm Alisha. We have three kids with us right now. Two of them we had fostered with our first placement the first time and then they recently came back into care with their younger sister and we had a chance to welcome them back into our home. So I quit I recently quit my full-time marketing job so I could be a full-time

2:34foster parent and it gives me more time to take care of them and then do things like this to talk with all of you. So we're excited to talk about foster care and really about the movie Instant Family 2. It's one of our favorites. Thank you guys so much. Something I really love about when you two talk about foster care is that you're so compassionate toward the biological parents and the challenging situations that they're in. I love that you have said this amazing example of having it's not an open adoption I know but like these really

3:06trusting open relationships. I'm not sure what the best vernacular is for it but I really admire that and love it. Yeah thank you. Just for reference Shane and Alisha were featured in episode 44 of our podcast and it's a fantastic episode for anyone I think but especially anyone considering becoming a foster parent. Actually Shaun's sister when she listened to that episode called and right after and said I really want to foster now. That was an incredible episode just really struck this amazing balance for her being real and genuine but also

3:39really pulling at her heart and saying hey how can I help these kids too? She's like I got home and I told my husband we're gonna be foster parents and his first reaction was like what? Where is this coming from? But yeah what you shared with us in that episode was really impactful. In fact Lena and I have been looking into potentially fostering in the future as well largely because of some of the experiences that we've had in conversing with Shane and Alisha. Yes absolutely. Also just always something to

4:12keep in mind when we're talking about foster care. Reunification is the goal in foster care right? It doesn't always happen there's definitely situations where foster to adopt is the better option but reunification is the goal and so just remembering that frame of reference for our discussion because it is different from other areas of the adoption community. Yeah we talked a lot about adoption and while some foster situations do lead to adoption it's not it's not purpose and the overall goal and so that does differ a little bit

4:42from a lot of conversation we normally have on the podcast but there's a lot that carries over and that that we can benefit from as we learn. Yeah all right so we're going to really hand the reins over to Shane and Alisha but we're going to show four different clips from the movie throughout our discussion and talk about a few questions that have been submitted by our listeners and Shane and Alisha will just share some of their perspectives and experiences as well and feel free as we said please feel free to share and comment in the chat or raise

5:15your hand would love to have more of a dialogue. Okay so I'm not sure Shane and Alisha if you want to watch the clip first if you want to lead discussion first so we'll just turn it to you and we'll kind of follow your lead. Okay so sounds good I guess first off Tori and Ellie have you seen the instant family before? Have you watched the movie? Okay okay that's just good to know based on like how much detail we should go into but the backdrop is that Pete and Ellie

5:48want to start their family they want to adopt but then they get introduced to foster care and are introduced to a teenager Lizzie and then after that they learn that Lizzie has two siblings and so they go from thinking they would just foster do foster to adopt for one and then all of a sudden it's three of them and so this clip is that meeting for the first time so maybe we can just watch that and then discuss it. Hey how's it going? Good it's going really good.

6:23Pete and Ellie? Yeah yeah we know come on in. Good luck with that one she thinks she's better than everybody. Yeah the other two is around out back. We'll be in the shop. Hey. Hi. Hey Lizzie. How are you? Mr. and Mrs. Wagner. Oh Ellie and Pete you don't have to call us. Just call us Ellie and Pete. Sorry about them. Oh please. Oh it just seemed a little like

6:56brother and sister. I'm really gonna miss them. That is if you know. No. You made such a good impression on us when we met you. We wanted to kind of get to know you a little bit more. Meet your brother and sister. Yeah they're actually like right outside if you guys want to follow them. Yes. Okay. Juan, Lira. I want you guys to meet Pete and Ellie. Hi. Hey guys. Are we gonna go stay at your house now?

7:30Um. Well you know what we we met your sister and she's so awesome. Yeah she's really cool. And she was telling us about you guys. Wanna play a restaurant with me? Yeah I would love to. Where's your restaurant? Right over there. Great and what's your doll's name? Her name is Potato Chips. Oh I love potato chips. Potato chips are my favorite. Oh nice one. Can we be the Clippers? Oh I'm more of a Lakers fan. Oh well sorry. No no you don't have to say sorry. That's okay. We could be the Clippers all right. Okay. I'm gonna shoot you crash the boards okay. Oh no. Oh shoot. You did it on purpose. What? You did it because I like the Clippers. Buddy I think the Clippers are awesome.

8:10I love the Clippers. Yeah. Are you kidding me? You're so smart to get rid of Blake Griffin. I mean that was a great trade for them. We're obsessed with the Clippers. I can't get enough of them. They're amazing. Okay um can we play hide and seek? Are you sure? You lost a lot of blood. I love hide and seek. Okay but just us. No girls. Oh sure. It's not that progressive but no problem. Lira should we go play restaurants? Yeah. You're it. I'll hide. You count okay. Okay you sure you're okay? Yeah go go and count. Bye buddy. Count to 20.

8:40You better not embarrass me at the restaurant. Potato chips has been bad today. Bad girl. Bad bad bad. Don't talk back you little beaner. Oh I don't think that's a. You know what she picks up that stuff off the tv. Yeah. Oh don't give me the look. Oh listen call her bad names like that. Don't tell me how to treat my kid. You think you're better than me huh? You guys kind of got the gist of it that they show up the the kids have been living at a previous foster home and then they're meeting them for the first time and then Juan gets hit in the nose with a basketball. He starts bleeding. It's just a lot of tension that I actually think is accurate based on our experience so far that you know with us with our experience we weren't necessarily going into it.

9:38Thinking adoption the kids were in an emergency situation and came to live with us but there still is at the beginning when they show up a little bit of hesitancy and you know trying to figure out like are do you feel safe with me? What are things that I can do to help you feel comfortable? It's unfamiliar a little bit awkward and they're really careful to not over promise when they said are we going to come live with you now? They're they're backpedaling a little bit trying to set expectations.

10:08Because if it does get uncomfortable they don't want the kids to be heartbroken. They're trying to set that expectation at the beginning so it is it feels a little bit like you're babysitting for a little while until you really get those relationships established. Going to that the question of what do you call people in foster care and how do you figure that out? We haven't totally figured that out ourselves like there is a lot of that back and forth at the beginning. I know you know after our first placement we had a few short term placements and like respite where we were just you know helping another foster parent out for a weekend and we thought okay let's try just having them call us.

10:53Mrs. and Mr. Gallagher or Mr. and Mrs. Alisha, Mr. Shane and yeah I don't know it I think it's kind of up to everybody like the culture you want to have in your home. I don't know if I felt the preference one or another but then you know it definitely changes and morphs. Throughout the relationship I know a lot of or I know a lot of times and it's happened with the kids in our home that they actually called us mommy and daddy in public before they ever said that at home and I think it was maybe to give them more like normalcy like you know when they're around their friends or something they don't want to look at them.

11:44And so they might feel comfortable calling us mom and dad out in public but they're not going to do that at home which is kind of interesting. One follow up question and I imagine you've had some connections with other foster parents. So you shared a little bit about your personal experience about how you call people or what you call people. Any other things that you've heard of from other foster parents as far as like maybe pro tips or things to avoid. I think that the biggest piece of advice that we hear is to see what the child is comfortable with. You can introduce yourself by your first name if you're okay with them calling you by their first name. I know that in some communities it's a sign of respect to an adult to say Mr. or Miss. And so you kind of can ask them what their first name is.

12:37And so you kind of can ask them what they want to call you and really I think that's been the just letting the child lead it because you don't want to force mommy and daddy into their vocabulary. That's not something that they're ready with or ready for. And so letting the child lead that is been like the most consistent piece of advice that we've heard from other people. I have another question maybe not particularly related to the listener question about what we call people. But as you listen to or watch that clip, any maybe specific other thoughts or feelings resonate with what you see. And again, how could those potentially considering foster care or foster to adopt learn or relate from your experience.

13:31Yeah, Tori actually just sent me a question asking is this seen typical or not like going to the existing foster home to pick up the children or usually in a neutral location. I would say in our experience it's always been a neutral location. When it's a foster to adopt it might be a little bit different because it's not emergency removal. It's more like you're trying to set that up. You're trying to meet them where they are. If it's a good fit then move them instead of going to one place it not working out and then going back.

14:08So I think it would depend on what the goal is in the end. But other things that we have noticed in this, you know, when they are going to that environment, although we haven't experienced that with going to another foster home to engage with the kids, we have seen that in going to the biological families homes. Sometimes they, you know, the way that they are talking to the kids, you're a little bit uncomfortable with, but you can't really stop it. You, you're kind of there to observe and see if you're in a situation to, you know, safely divert away from talking negatively to the children, or you hear the children say negative things about themselves, language that they've picked up.

14:53And so it's a lot, it can be really overwhelming at the beginning because they're coming from a completely different situation than you. So I think you get a sense of that when you're watching Pete and Ellie, like, they're a little bit anxious, you kind of get that anxious energy, because I think it can be overwhelming to see and be in that environment for the first time. Really good. And then maybe one more question that I have in this maybe will come up several times but as we do these adoption in the media series. One of the maybe critical questions we ask is how, how true to life, is this representation, so how would you answer that as far as maybe some of the

15:36emotions or emotions held on both sides. Do you think this is accurate representation or is it over dramatic over dramatize as Hollywood. So, my, my feeling is that it, and I think you can kind of see this in the movie that there, there are parts in the movie that feel a little bit clunky and the conversation, the dialogue is a little bit weird. And then the interactions with the adults they're like trying to get information out there and so it's.

16:08I don't know like the like the support group scenes. We've never really had an experience like that. And kind of like the way they, you know they sprung it on them in the support group that like oh the kids are actually going to be going home like that would never happen, like in a public setting like that. But I think that they like nailed all the interactions with the kids like there's so many things in there that's like, wow, we've had that exact experience and things might be a little bit embellished but not that not that embellished actually.

16:43It can be, it can be that it like down to the little interactions of like well do we do we need to give them a kiss goodnight and, and then you know then saying well okay well we gave them one do we need to go give Lizzy a hug and she's like no I don't think you're good. It's like all that stuff, I feel like it's very, so very familiar very authentic. And, yeah. Yeah, that's great. So foster care, it can be super intimidating and this is a scene about the first initial meeting when everyone's talking about what foster care looks like and the social workers say some things that might kind of scare off some people.

17:27Yeah, any, I mean, as we are about to listen to this anything Shane or Alisha you feel like we should be thinking about, or maybe on our minds, as we listen to this clip. I would just look at the different parties that are in this scene and the way that they are reacting whether spoken or not. Okay, great. It is not going to be easy folks. These kids will test your will put a strain on your relationship and push buttons you didn't even know you had.

18:01I can tell by looking at you that all y'all are going to make it. I actually think this group has got the grit to face some unpleasant. You guys heading out. Okay, well thank you. Bye bye. That one's on me. It absolutely is and you know we've gone over this before. I think I had someone asked, did you experience a honeymoon period after foster kids came into your home, and then coming out of that honeymoon period. It's super hard on the movie wasn't like that for you, any advice for getting through that.

18:35I would say we absolutely did. The first time around. The first few days, it was a pretty short period but the first few days, everything just seemed fun and happy, and they were very well behaved. And then, I don't know if it was, you know what it, you know what it was, but then it just kind of devolved into a nightmare kind of like in the movie you know that the sleeping habits and the behavior and the screaming and misbehavior.

19:13Yeah, it was. It definitely wore off. And then it gets better. And then this with, you know, I think our situation is pretty unique that they went home for a year and now that they're back with us again. It definitely has not been as extreme but I think we definitely went through the same motions where the, the first few weeks, you know, it's fun that they were, they were excited to be back with, you know, Shane and Alisha and I think when it said in that oh

19:51they're going home right away. We definitely saw, you know, regression in their, in their behavior and everything but they also got through that stage a lot faster to them last time so yeah, there's definitely a honeymoon period. And really I think the, the best way that we've seen to get through those, those hard times is to be consistent as a parent have those routines and do what you say you're going to do, whether it's you promise a reward follow through on that, or if you say that

20:35you're going to do certain actions, follow through on that because I think, especially when the kids don't know you they have no reason to trust a stranger there in a house. I mean I think of the times that I would go over to a friend's house just for the night. And even that after a little while, you kind of just want to get back home because you know where your toys are you know what the routine is, even going over to grandma 's house would feel a little bit like that so imagine being traumatically separated and then put into a stranger's home, they don't really have any reason to believe you or trust you until you show that they can believe you and trust you so it takes time for them to see that

21:20you're consistent you'll do what you say you will do, and you'll connect with them. And then after a while they start to, I think have a more secure attachment because they believe you and they see that you love them through your actions. There's not enough comfort in the world that can really fill that hole for them, but that consistency will provide that structure so then they can trust you and feel safe. Another advice that I feel like I'll probably end up giving a dozen times throughout this is that you have to lower your expectations that these, these kids are not going to be well adjusted, like, you know your own kids that you've raised from birth,

22:08that you're going to be safe, and you know help the environment or your neighbors kids or your nieces and nephews like they're just they're just not they're going to, they're coming with trauma and that is going to come out in behavior and, and, and their actions and their fears and their, their triggers and it's, it just comes with it just comes with it and you just have to be ready to say, you have to be ready to lower your expectations on how fast they're going to adjust, and how well they're going to meet

22:52those expectations that you may have for other kids. And when Shane says that he gives that advice a lot he gives that advice to me a lot. I'll get frustrated about something because I will have thought we've seen progress in this and now, you know this thing has happened and now we're regressing. And so Shane will just look at me and say, you need to lower your expectations, all the way to the floor, like you'll just use that hand motion and just, just, you have to take the, the, the expressions of trauma as they come and just lower it all the way,

23:30just like obviously you can't do it all the time they do need structure but there are days when you just have to let go of a lot of that and you just you learn how to do that with practice there's not that silver bullet that will tell you when to lean on structure and when to go into compassion and you figure out a way to blend all of that together. So that challenge, it sounds like you are a great companionship in helping with that but what other support do you feel like you have maybe in support groups or in other education.

24:07Have you felt like you've had to deal with some of that challenge. Yeah, that's, that's the other thing to remember is that you're not alone, that the kids will have a caseworker that you can talk to, they will be advocating for them and getting them resources that they need like a therapist, or, you know, supplies

24:37or whatever resource they need. You as a foster parent will also have a caseworker who's advocating for you. They're going to help you with getting, you know respite workers so that you can have, you know, if you need a weekend away from it all, or you're just a night away from it. And they will also be advocating for the kids and in giving them the resources that they need.

25:10And, unfortunately, it does take advocating for yourself to utilize those things you there, they're busy and so you, you have to make noise to to access that. But those resources are there you just use and you make sure that you're asking for them from your caseworkers and, and then and then you'll start to realize you have a whole team of people to help.

25:41That's wonderful. Thank you. So in this clip. We have this huge group of people who are taking introductory classes to being a foster parent, and just laying right out flat this is going to be really hard it's going to test you it's going to test your marriage and patience. And from what you've shared that sounds. That sounds really accurate. I'm wondering if anybody else. Guest wise here in the zoom call has any follow up questions as far as challenges go for Shane and Alisha before we move on.

26:13I guess, is there anything. I don't I don't know what the right word is like hurtful that people have maybe said or done that like is not necessary like, I just feel like I really want to make sure I never say anything that's like hurtful in any way. Yeah, that one is hard because it foster care is not a well understood trauma, there's like a. I've been hearing terms like ambiguous or disenfranchised grief, where it's not widely understood by society and so it's not always easy to lend support to the kids,

26:50or to the specific training or lens support to the parents so they're really good question. I think that one. There's something that we hear a lot and we know that it's not intended harmfully, but we can see it being taken that way is when people say things like, you know, you're so lucky to have you. It, I understand where that sentiment is coming from because in a lot of ways. They, there is a lot of gratitude that they can be in a safe place now, but I think with older kids they probably if they're within earshot of hearing that

27:29might not feel like that they're like, what do you like, what about my situation of lucky exactly. So, I think that when offering support to to foster parents that like encouraging and validating what what they're doing and their efforts and just like being strong, you know, you can do this I'm sure this is hard, and then being consistent and showing up and just stepping in, offering solutions or help or food or clothes or toys like those actions will go a long way to establish that relationship so then you

28:07don't have to feel like you're walking on eggshells of like, if I say the wrong thing because if it's words only then you know it could be dicey but if you're showing with your actions that you are there for them then that goes a really long way. Wonderful question, Allison and thank you Alisha Shane did you have a thought to add to that. Yeah, I think I had the only, the only other thing that I was going to say was specifically for supporting foster parents.

28:41I, it is a really unique trauma also for foster parents that they're, you know they go from me. For us, for instance, like we went from having no kids to having three kids in our home. And sometimes what's been like more hurtful is when people don't ask or there's like no curiosity, and it would be like, am I invisible is like, like, this is a huge thing happening

29:11in my life, and you're not even curious. That's, that's one experience that we've had specifically about like supporting foster parents, and then the kids I think Alisha made a really good point about, you know, that they're not, they don't feel lucky and that that might just not be the right, it might not be. It might not be received the way that they that you're hoping it to be received.

29:41Thank you again for sharing that's. I don't know, I personally would like error I think on the side of not asking too many questions like not prying, but I think that's really refreshing to hear that there's probably some needed connection that needs to happen. And, and we could be supportive of that. Thank you. Yeah, asking the right questions. Yeah, effectively. We're going to transition now to talking about triggers and trauma. So again here is another clip specifically talking about trauma.

30:18Where's my potato chips. Oh, we're not having chips tonight munchkin sorry. I want my chips, Lita, Lizzy, Pete and I worked really hard on this dinner and there's lots of yummy food for you to eat. Lizzy no okay.

30:50But you will drink that milk. In any case, we have this. It's fine. Okay, fine. Okay. Let's try some of this meatloaf, okay? No! I want my chips! You're not having chips! I don't think she's getting on board with the plan, honey. No! I don't want this! You sure you don't wanna just give her some chips? No, we're not giving her chips. We're just gonna eat... Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Leta, stop wrecking! Oh, my... I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. No, no, it's okay. Don't cry. Relax.

31:20Watch your feet, okay? I didn't mean to. I'm so sorry. Hey, you give those to me. Give me those. Ow! Don't cry! I'll get it! Just stay there, okay? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! These are really, really good potatoes. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Oh! Ah! God! Oh, my God! Are you okay? God! What are you... Leta, stop! Stop! What are you doing? What? I'm trying to put it out! The ketchup? Put it out! Stop it! Oh! Leta!

31:52Wait, wait, wait. What's that noise? Why is she growling? That wasn't in the classes. I got nothing for that. She's got a knife. It's just a sponge-bottom knife. It's still a knife. Just put the knife down, honey. Look, just put down the weapon, okay? You guys want me to deal with this, or do you still got it? Yeah, do you want to let her jump in here now, please? Okay, okay. Fine, fine. Leta, go take a shower, and from there, go to your room, and you're gonna open the door. You're gonna tell them, yeah? Gracias.

32:24No, you gotta learn some Spanish. Why would you give a kid milk in a glass cup? I'm sorry. I didn't... Why did you do that? I hate her! All right, so we got a few questions from listeners that related to that clip. One of them was, how do you know if a foster situation is something you can handle, especially with addiction, abuse, and other things I haven't experienced personally? So in that scene, it's kind of wild. So, yeah, I thought, how do you know if you can handle something before you're there? Yeah, and it was just really entertaining

32:55to just listen to it, actually, because I think that any parent can relate to what that sounds like. You know, maybe last night at dinner was like that. Honestly, I think it's very relatable on any level. And then you add in that the parents are, and the kids are still kind of strangers to each other. And you probably heard the fight over the potato chips, which, if you remember from the earlier clip, the little girl named her doll potato chips

33:25and just mentions offhand, I really like potato chips. And then later it turns into this huge thing where she's not getting her potato chips. She likes them, she's not getting them, and has this huge tantrum. So I think it's a really, really well done example of at the beginning, you're just getting to know each other, and you don't know what's going to be a trigger and what's not going to be a trigger. Maybe another kid is going to be the doll, like you can't bring the doll somewhere,

33:56and that would be their trigger. This little girl, it was the potato chips. So I think there are a lot of things that can happen that you can't anticipate. And so I think it's good to remember that you are never left on your own. You always have a social worker that you can call. You can always advocate for if something doesn't feel normal to speak up and ask for help. And so sometimes that could be with a social worker, or other times that might be with the community

34:27that you're building of friends and family and other foster parents that can support you through it. I think there's a lot to be said about trusting that you can problem solve and do the best that you can. There's not always that one thing that's going to make it better. But if you can trust your future self to take it as it comes, just like you've done with other things in your life or with your current kids, like if you have kids already,

34:57then you can know when something is feeling right or when something's feeling uncomfortable and you need to speak up about it. Have you personally had experiences like what we just listened to? Yeah. I feel like there's been times when we definitely hit our limit and we're screaming, they're screaming, and it's just crazy.

35:28The thing with the potato chips, it's subtle later on in the movie. I think it's really easy to miss because I think at another dinner scene, they're eating spaghetti or something and they have potato chips on top of the spaghetti. So it's like they compromise. And I think it was in another question about feeling like you're co-parenting with the bio family and the government and stuff.

36:03Your role as a foster parent, and it's really hard to get this to really sink in, but you're there to provide them a safe place and to love them. And that might be very different than what you see your role as a parent to other kids, to the kids that are already in your home

36:33and you're like, we had a training just the other night and there was a lady who was talking about her teenage foster placement and that he just keeps running away. And I'm thinking with my kids, I wouldn't just let my teenager just keep leaving. You can't lock your door or something. You can't just go out. It's not safe.

37:05But there's rules. You're not allowed to physically restrain these kids, which is a good thing. We probably should do that with our own kids too. But you're not going to... Let's see. How should I say this? You have to let go and realize that they might make really bad decisions, bad decisions that you would not even give your other kids

37:36the chance to make. But your job is just to make sure that they have a safe place to come home and that they feel loved and welcomed. And so you have to keep your own kids safe. Especially with things like addiction and abuse and stuff, you want to be careful. The training that we got the other night was like, always make sure that you are in between them and the door so that if they get violent, you have a way out,

38:06which is just like a really dark thing to have to think about when you're parenting a child. And then for younger kids, especially with this stuff, they're still very innocent and they'll bring up things about their trauma. And I think you just have to meet them on their level. They're going to be talking very light about some really dark things. And you just want to keep them talking

38:37so that you can then report what's happening to their caseworker because that's all, you're a mandated reporter and this is all stuff that's going to go into their reunification plan and stuff like that. But it takes putting a barrier in your heart

39:07because you'll want to just react maybe really strongly when you hear your two-year-old say the F word or something or talk about something really traumatic. But you just have to say, okay, this is where we are. And again, lowering your expectations for how a child is supposed to act or what they're supposed to say.

39:37And hopefully, once you do that, at least you can take the pressure off of yourself of getting a certain outcome. I realize that there's still that stress of safety or feeling overwhelmed and stuff. And that's part of it, that you can't avoid that.

40:07But maybe you can take the pressure off of seeing some miraculous change if you realize maybe that's not what your role is. Great. Thank you for sharing that. Another question that we had from a listener, and feel free to answer this how you will, but they asked, how do you set boundaries and keep everyone safe? Or how do you have a relationship with people who have had a very different lived experience than you?

40:37How might you answer that? I really like this question. It's clearly coming from someone who's thinking deeply about what that would look like. And I think that the biggest thing that you have in common with these people that might feel very different from you is the kids. So with their biological family, they might have grown up very differently and are still living in very different circumstances than you are, not all the time, but sometimes that can be the case.

41:08And when your focus is on the kids and you're showing that you respect the kids and you respect them as the grandparents or the parents, that goes a long way. When the kids were reunified, so the kids that we were fostering, when they were reunified with their mom, we were the ones bringing them to the visits, dropping them off and then leaving.

41:38And it took a long, long time to build trust. And we didn't really have a lot of time to talk in those transfers. And so we just, I did my best to be on time to those visits and bring the kids in nice clothes, hair done, just showing that with all the little bits that we could do to show that we love the kids, we're taking care of them, we respect you, we're on time, we'll be flexible if kids are having a hard time leaving

42:08and letting those actions speak louder than anything that we could say. And then over time, she led us into her life so that we could continue to be a part of them, a part of their lives. So it's those, like focusing on the kids and letting those actions speak for themselves could make a difference. It's of course their choice if they're going to accept that or not. They might not want to have a relationship with you.

42:38But again, what Shane said I think is really important, letting go of any particular outcome. You might not ever be friends with them, they might not ever show gratitude, but that's not the point. The point is to be there for the kids. Thank you. And then another question, and this may lead into our next kind of topic, but when you make these bonds and the kids might have to leave your family and home,

43:08how do you grieve? And then I know that you've gone through this because you had a placement, they left, and then like you mentioned, they came back about a year later. And then kind of a follow-up question, how do you build these attachments knowing that you're probably going to get hurt? I feel like Alisha and I, neither one want to answer the question because I don't know if we're super good at it.

43:38It is really hard, I guess, reiterating what Alisha just said that, you know, that like really divorcing the outcome from what you're doing is really important. And like that you're not... Becoming a foster parent, the goal can be to foster to adopt,

44:12but recognizing and understanding that that is not a guarantee and that the goal of foster care is reunification. And you're not doing it for you. This is... It does have to be a 100% selfless act, not to pat my own back because there's...

44:43You still have a heart and you're still going to have to deal with it. And I would say the thing that we tried to do when the kids went home, because it was a lot, we were feeling it and... It was especially hard for Alisha because she was full-time mom and then the kids went home and now what am I doing with her? For me, I still got to go to my job for eight hours a day.

45:17I didn't have that same disruption when they went home. And so what we came up with then is we need to figure... We need to structure our lives in such a way that foster kids are coming in and out of our home, in and out of our lives, and we're not completely morphing our lives around foster care so that there's some sort of flow

45:48from before, during and after foster care. And we thought that what that would be was Alisha, you need to have a part-time job or a full-time job during it so that before, during and after, she could still have that in her life. We obviously haven't kept with that plan because she quit her job when the kids came back. But I still think that's good advice.

46:18We haven't figured out exactly how to do that. But I actually... We're having a realization on the spot that I think that might be evidence that we're getting more comfortable with ambiguity, that in one moment, knowing that I have a job and something to structure my time with or without kids was really helpful. And then when three kids came back into our lives, and it became evidence that for us to have quality of life,

46:48I would much rather be spending time at home than spending my free time trying to squeeze a job in. That became the right answer. And try and trusting that if and when they go home again, that something else will be the right answer, and we'll figure it out when we get there. So letting go of... Really letting go of a lot of things so that we can enjoy our lives, enjoy time with the kids. So there's been a lot of embracing ambiguity

47:20that has been really helpful for us. Awesome. Thank you guys so much. That's a really hard thing. So in the movie, I feel like the most emotional part is when the family finds out that the kids are going to be going back with their mom, and they're all getting ready for that. And then the morning that she's supposed to come and pick them up, the social workers pull up and say, you know, you're not going to be able to go home with your mom. And it's just this heartbreaking scene for Lizzie, the oldest,

47:53because she worked really hard trying to help her mom be able to get them back home. And so we're going to watch or listen to one last scene, and that's what happens right after. She finds out she runs away and just really upset. And so we'll get to where Pete and Ellie find Lizzie and are talking about what's going on, just processing this development. You're with us now. And you know why? We've got a cosmic connection.

48:23That's right. We've got a cosmic connection. I know you feel really sorry for me right now, but you really don't have... It's got nothing to do with what just happened. Where's the court statement Ellie gave you? Oh. See this? Read that. Lizzie once asked me why we did this, why we took them in. We couldn't give her an answer at the time. We did it because something was missing in our lives

48:54that we didn't know what it was. It was Juan, Lida, and Lizzie. You were what was missing, Lizzie. But now you're here and you are stuck with us. That's right. We're gonna be at every soccer game. We're gonna be all over your ass about your grades. And we're gonna buy you your first prom dress. Yeah, and it's gonna be really, really pretty, but not too revealing, super sweet, you know, not too sexy, just like really that gorgeous sweet spot. Yeah, right, and when you graduate high school,

49:25we're gonna be in the front row embarrassing you. And then we're gonna be in the front row again when you graduate college too, or even if you don't. But you will be graduating college because it's so important and you're so smart and I don't mean to push, but this just opens up so many more opportunities. But either way, we're gonna be there for you. And someday, I'm gonna give you away at your wedding. Right, even if I think the guy's a piss ant and he's not good enough for my little girl. That's right. Someday in the future, someday in the way, way, way off, deep, deep, deep, distant future. Lizzie, can we go home now?

50:01Yeah, I guess we can. Yeah. Look, I know you don't like this, but you're gonna have to get used to it once in a while, okay? Can I get one of those? Because I haven't gotten a single hug from you since I've known you. Please. Okay. All right, so we're about out of time. Alisha and Shane, we would love to have you guys wrap up last thoughts and any last things you want to make sure we talk about,

50:31especially in regards to unknowns and all of these different challenges in the foster care community. Okay, just with that clip in mind, I want to say that taking a child away from their bio parents,

51:01whether it's through adoption or foster care, is incredibly traumatic. Everybody goes through trauma, and Alisha and I are obviously super big supporters of adoption, but it's still a trauma. You know, at the end of the movie, you see, you know, it's this big happy ending in the courtroom and everybody's smiling, there's happy music, but there's somebody there who...

51:32There's somebody who's not in that picture, and that's... and it's really tragic that, you know, these kids had to be separated from their bio mom. And, you know, I guess if somebody was really brave, they could do, like, a mirror movie of showing Carlita's experience throughout this whole thing, because it really is tragic and traumatic.

52:04And so you just have to... I don't know. I've been trying to keep that in my mind, especially when I get really possessive of these kids, of, like, I want them, and I want them forever, and I don't want them to go back to, like, to remember that, and that, you know, just like if somebody, you know,

52:35gets a... you know, has to get an amputation, you don't make that decision lightly, but it might be the best decision for them, and they can live a happy, full life afterwards. But it's a huge weighty thing to think about. And so I guess that's kind of the sobering thought that I want to, like, leave, you know, with the emotional happy moment of everybody hugging and feeling, you know, that connection.

53:06So in foster care, it is encouraged to... for the kids to have a relationship with their biofamily as long as it's safe. They will be... a visit schedule will be established where it is supervised between the caseworker and the bioparent and the child. So you would bring the children to the visit. Caseworker would supervise, make notes of how things are going, and then the parent also has to meet other requirements to get... to have that right, to have their kids back in their home safely.

53:38And that could be anything from therapy to rehab to parenting classes. It could be any number of things. So, yes, since reunification is typically the goal so that biofamilies can get their lives back together, back in order, then that is definitely encouraged. And in case you were asking about after an adoption, I think it would be the same as any open adoption

54:08that it's up to the adopted parents on their level, what they're comfortable with, with relationship with the biofamily. Yeah, that's a great point. Shannon and Alisha, as we finish, again, the whole impetus of this chat was about this movie. So recommend, don't recommend. So, yeah, what are your kind of final thoughts on that?

54:38Yeah, definitely recommend it. It's one of our favorites that we come back to because it's so accurate. Obviously, it's dramatized, but just the emotion of it is very accurate. The roller coaster is accurate. And it's impressive that they put together this movie on such a serious topic, but they do it in a really humorous way without anything offensive in it. I haven't found anything that's, you know,

55:08they do not understand foster parents or the kids in foster care. So it's lots of dark humor, lots of conversations that we have had jokingly. And we just, we recommend to anybody who's like, you know, what's foster care like? We say just watch Instant Family because start there, you'll probably like it. We can talk more about it, but it's a really good starting point to understand what it's like. Yep, the same. There's obviously storytelling elements. You know, they wanted a happy ending.

55:39And they did a lot of things that made sense for storytelling that maybe weren't too realistic. I don't know how easy it would be to keep your kids like if you got arrested. I don't know. But, you know, so there was a lot of dramatization, but the feeling and the tone of the movie, they nailed it. So it's a good movie. Thank you guys so very much. We really appreciate you talking

56:09and sharing your experiences with us. And again, I personally, I think this movie is well done too. And I don't really have experience in the foster care world, but I did feel so heartbroken about the portrayal of the biological mother and just the way that things came about. I remember watching it the first time and thinking, man, I wish there was some way that they could keep, like, ensure maybe in the movie, at least ensure that the kids are still going to have her

56:42in their lives and find some kind of way to make this a more positive experience ultimately for everybody having those pieces. So yeah, and I love, yeah, that you guys advocate for that so much. Yeah, and right, advocates for open adoption too, that was a downplayed part of the role that the bio mom would have in this situation. And like Shane said, we want to see some other movie

57:15or other portrayals from her perspective, because often it's not so clear cut of what should happen. And there can be a lot of compassion. But just even when they see her, they're like, she looks so normal, I don't know what it's expecting. Even that alone, I think, did a good job of subverting expectations, because there is a very outdated view of the kids that come into foster care and the situation that their parents are in. There is a stereotype and it's not accurate.

57:47It can be for lots of different reasons. So we want more of these stories to round out the conversation. That's awesome. Thank you. I agree. Just along with that, you think about how traumatic this is for the kids to have to get pulled from their home and how bad things have to be to justify that and then how hard of a time they're going to have dealing with that trauma. On the flip side, you think about, okay,

58:18if we're just looking at the biomom, we want her to be happy and successful as well. And taking her kids away is incredibly traumatic. And in the short term, we'll probably make things worse for her. There's going to be deep, deep depression and maybe the little bit of accountability that she was feeling because, oh, I need to keep things together because of my kids.

58:49And now they're out of the picture. You know, there's just like, you have to think like, okay, how bad does it have to be for me to do this, to enact this trauma on her so that she can get better too. And so, yeah, it's really hard. It's just hard.

59:19So hard. I really appreciate this full picture view that you guys are painting now. Yeah. Well, Shane and Alisha, thank you so much. Allison, Jessica, Tori, thank you for joining us and asking some questions. Thank you so much. We really, really appreciate you. We're glad that we could watch this movie and that it's a pretty accurate portrayal of what foster care might be like. So thank you all so, so much. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Thank you so much for listening to this episode

60:04of the Open Adoption Project. Yeah, well, that wraps up this episode. We're so grateful to Shane and Alisha and those that joined live on the Zoom chat for the conversation we were able to have today on the movie Incident Family. So we're excited about, so we found a couple of adult adoptees who grew up with open adoption. We've had Dakota on the podcast before. He's talked about his experience growing up with an open adoption, but it can be hard to find adult adoptees who are older adults who have experienced

60:34really open adoptions where they had ongoing contact and relationships with their birth family. And so we have our next two episodes are interviews with adults who grew up with that kind of openness that was really a lot less common and sometimes just unheard of. And so hearing these perspectives, we're so excited to share them. It was a really neat experience to talk to both of these women who will be on the show the next couple of episodes. So watch your download feed for that and we'll be back in two weeks.

61:05Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Open Adoption Project.

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