Michelle | “I Can Still Be Broken-Hearted it Had to Happen”

0:00Welcome to the open adoption project we're the Nelsons. I'm Shaun and I'm Lanette today We are so excited to share an interview with Michelle We have been saving this interview for a while because we loved it so much and we thought it would be a great one to end our interview section of this season with so this is actually our last interview for season 2 and Next week we'll wrap up the season with one more episode So Michelle is a birth mother so she shares her

0:31perspective in her story as a birth mother but also she is an adoption professional and so she is able to shed some light on situations from both the perspective of a birth mother and an adoption professional, which is great and Something cool about Michelle is that she is also able to share her story and some fiction because she is an author and she ties in adoption to several of her books. So fun And so her Instagram is at Michelle

1:03Thorne books and we'll have that in the show notes, but she is so much fun and We just loved talking to her. We're really excited to share this interview Okay, well we are now on the podcast with Michelle Michelle thanks so much for being with us today Thanks for having me excited to be here. We're excited to get to know you more and to hear your story So just to get started, can you help us get to know you and our listeners get to know you a little bit? Yes, my name is Michelle Thorne. I Currently live in Black Mountain, North Carolina with my husband and the two children we have

1:37I have been an adoption professional for the last decade or so and I'm currently transitioning into a career with user experience design So that's exciting. Yeah, lots of love for adoption. I am a birth mom. I had my son He will be 22 in March. So yeah, lots of adoption in my life What are some of the things you guys as a family have to say about adoption? Oh my gosh, oh play Minecraft. We are gamers. We are total gamers. So

2:08Like for my birth my birthday is in January and I'm like, let's start a family world. So we'll all be on the PS4 Playing Minecraft and create a world together and then it'll come back around eventually or whatever. We're super big Marvel fans. So We routinely watch Marvel movies travel. My favorite is Marvel movies Travel my kids travel really well probably because they lived in China, but yeah, they got used to it So they travel really well, so they're great to travel with That's awesome. I love it. That's amazing. All right. Well, can you tell us some of your adoption story and just how things have played out for you with adoption?

2:46I had left my home at gosh, how old was I 18, 19 and I went to work at a Christian camp in Mississippi and I was very loved and cared for by the people there But kind of the issues in my past that I felt like I was running from of course followed me And so I continued to struggle and use my same Avenues of self medication, which were, you know, just finding love from a man and that's, you know

3:17Probably enough to say and I got pregnant in May June of 1999 And I pretty quickly was like, oh my gosh, I have to have an abortion Like I just no one can know about this. I mean, I was living at a Christian camp and I just didn't know how they were going to take that And I grew up in kind of a very legalistic church and maybe not all the people there were Legalistic, but I think what I got from there was legalism, which is just basically saying you have to look perfect on the outside, I guess

3:50And so, of course, being pregnant and not married was not perfect Yeah, I tried to try to get an abortion and I really just my story is that the Lord just stopped me like and I had a moment where I just knew like this is a person Inside of me and I've got to protect him. And so I went to a maternity home at what then was called Mercy Ministries. Now it's called Mercy multiplied They opened their doors to me and I went there for the duration of my pregnancy. So I was there six months before I delivered, I think, and almost to the day. Yeah. And so while I was there, I

4:32I went from like a Southern Baptist to like a full on gospel. So it was like I was swinging dramatically and just like, oh, here's like a whole other side of Church. Like it was kind of like I had just had all these big swings happening to me. I had had massive freedom and went down to massive structure, right, as you would expect. And I was really resentful of that in the beginning, but really needed it. I think that because I was swinging so big with like religiously, I guess in the Christian world religiously that when as as my son was growing in my belly, I was God's really growing in my heart. I was really like, you know what? Neither of these can be used. I've just got to figure it out for myself.

5:19Which is kind of ridiculous because but it works. I mean, you know, I just I was kind of rough. And so, and let's see, I was due March 8 of 2000 and I delivered March 10 of 2000. It was a Friday and Fridays were good days because we got to go to the mall. And so I was kind of bummed. I was like, oh, I think I'm in labor.

5:50I was like, why can't I go to Sunday in this church? To the hospital and yeah, I delivered at 522pm. And I just remember like this. I mean, it was an amazing feeling to like give birth, but then it was like, they put them on my chest immediately. And I was like, how did you fit in there? And how did I get you out? Like I was just like, whoa, like such shock and they took him to the nursery then because I spiked a fever and they wouldn't let him stay with me because I just needed to monitor me.

6:27I was without him for 24 hours and I think that was really hard because I thought I'm not going to get much time with him anyway. Like this is my only time where he's only mine. Once my fever was down, I was like, okay, bring me my baby. And oh my gosh, this nursery worker, you guys was like, well, you can't just have your baby come back and forth. And I was like, okay, well, right. I'm like, okay, bring me my baby. And they're like, but I don't know if that's a good idea. She said, I don't know if that's a good idea if you're planning on giving him away.

6:58And I was like, I need you to bring me my baby. Like bring me my baby. So anyway, I mean, and I didn't have anyone in the hospital there advocating for me. So the ministry, which was lovely. I mean, they sent, I had a partner like who was there with me and stayed with me. So I wasn't alone. It was another like resident, but you know, that's a resident in a ministry is not an advocate for what I was going through. And I don't think that they meant ill towards me. I think it just now we know, you know what I mean? So I had to advocate for myself and I did and they brought me the baby.

7:38And I was like, okay. I'm like, they're like, you have to keep him. I'm like, okay, like, I'm going to keep him. It's fine. And I think that that freaked them out a little bit. But so I named him Eric and he's given me permission to give his name. So I named him Eric and yeah, I helped him for the whole time and cried a lot. I will never forget. I'm a huge sports fan. And so I was discharged from the hospital Monday, March 13th of 2000.

8:08And all you dolphin fans out there can attest that that is the day Dan Marina retired. And I watched Dan Marino with his wife and five children retiring. And I'm like, like, sorry, because it was like, it was like an avenue for me to like, get some of that grief out, you know, like, and, and I, and I needed that. I got a God bless sports center. So, so yeah, so I, I knew I wouldn't. I knew I would leave the hospital and then not really see him much after that.

8:41So I, I will say to one of the most remarkable things that I experienced was when like sitting there looking at him, I was like, there's nothing you will ever do to make me not love you like I knew for sure. I was going to be totally 100% sold out to love him well the rest of my life. And I think I didn't really understand. Maybe the father heart of God or how to love well until that moment. And so, kind of from there on, everything became about like loving him well so it was like I was considering him and things, you know, and not that he was present

9:25in my life so my openness agreement was, I guess what you'd call semi open. No one talked to me about open adoption, and I mean you know it's 22 years ago I don't know, I do know friends who have children around that age that they place for adoption who do have openness. But I just didn't know how to do that or if it was right no one said this is okay. You know I was even encouraged by someone not to even name him and definitely not to hold him. And I thought how dumb is that I'm already holding I've been holding him for nine months, I mean, I'm his home, you know, I mean you like why why would I hold it, I think it became this

10:04kind of understood idea. You're going to move on with your life. You've done the right thing. Good job. And you can get some pictures every now and then, you know, and maybe when he's five, that'll be it. And, you know, when he's 18 if he wants to, you know, reach out to you, you know, are you okay with that. Like, yeah, of course I'm okay with that like I, I felt like I've done this to him, I need to be available to him if he wants that but I never got the sense that I was worthy of love and belonging in his life.

10:42You know what I mean, like that I was going to be important to him. It was more like, you're the avenue in which he entered the world you did the right thing, he's not going to have to suffer. And, you know, move on and make something of yourself kind of thing. And so I kind of held on to that idea for years, I'm not worthy of being in his life. He doesn't really, he's not going to want anything to do with me.

11:12I've done the right thing. You know, he's much better off without me these kinds of ideas. And then I had cadence our daughter and then my husband I got married 2004 had cadence in 2008 and then 2010, I had Deacon, and during those two pregnancies which are pretty close together. And then, you know, a lot of things happened to me like a lot started coming up like that mama bear feeling of like well he is mine, you know, like hold on a second but he's not but he is like he belongs to me but I'm not just his only mom like there was a lot like coming up and then,

11:51you know, celebrating this pregnancy with cadence, like, it was amazing like oh you know, see God's giving you your own baby now, and, you know, just kind of like your, your stories redeemed and, and I'm like, oh god, no pressure kid, no pressure, I mean like but also there were people celebrating this pregnancy that didn't celebrate my first one, and I was really, really angry about that was really angry about that I was like, Eric deserved to be celebrated no matter what he is created in the

12:26image of God he is a life that was created he deserved so much better than, than he got than I gave him, you know, these kinds of feelings were coming up and. I was really, really struggled and when I, when we brought cadence so my husband his name is Matthew. When we brought her home, I just was like how am I ever going to tell her about her brother, how am I ever going to, how am I ever going to tell her, he is like just go tell her right now. Like it was no big deal and I was like, huh. So I go into her nursery and I pick her up. She's totally asleep like she has no memory of this of course I just like, pour over her and tell her this entire story. And I'm like, again, ugly crying I'm telling her every single thing probably way too many details

13:11you know I mean I was in there forever telling her the story. And I think that was that the moment where I kind of, I don't know my husband helped me be brave enough to start to tell my story. And, you know, and speak that shame out loud right and shame can't stand to be spoken right isn't that this a British Brown quote or something like that she says something like that. And so I started just talking about it, not just with people who already knew, but with people who didn't know. I just started kind of feeling I had a friend to three weeks before I delivered to that she adopted her son Grayson.

13:49So I just, you know, was kind of like, hey, I'm a birth mom like kind of like, you know, pushing myself in there a little bit pretty scary. Um, but she was wonderful. She her name is Lindsay and she was just so wonderful to like listen and to talk with me about, you know, Grayson's birth mom and the sweet sweet girl and man I agree for that girl for sure and she did too and that was really interesting to see. I didn't realize that adoptive parents grief or birth parents until then.

14:19I just didn't know that happened. It felt more like a. A gift thanks kind of not in a negative way just in a like they didn't really know how to express themselves way, maybe. And so I didn't feel negative about adoptive parents, necessarily I just didn't realize that some of them grieved a lot of them grieve deeply. Yeah, so I kind of started getting my gumption right I'm starting to feel like, wait, maybe, maybe I am somebody maybe I'm somebody important so I have Deacon, that's my son, that apparent Deacon

14:55in April 2010 and I'm like, listen, I'm telling my husband Matthew I'm like, I got, I gotta write my story. And he's like, okay. And so I, I'm like, okay, I'm going to do it. Okay. So I write my story of getting pregnant, choosing the place, Eric for adoption and then I have sort of like this little short chapter afterwards about kind of like moving on or whatever and, and I think you know if I, it was published, March 10 of 2012 so it's been 10 years, I think if I were right it today be very different, but at the time, it was exactly where it was, it was super vulnerable and honest, and I did it as a cathartic exercise I thought I just.

15:36I mean, I had been in counseling on and off forever. Definitely, no adoption form therapist but therapies nonetheless. And so I wrote my story it was 55,000 words of just like, like, raw, like, I need to get this out here. And I thought that was going to be it. But my friend Lindsay wanted to read it and you know my husband read it and then our, I asked our pastor to read it and they were like you gotta publish.

16:06And I was like, no, I don't need to do that. They're like no no no. It's like people just need to know like just need to see the side of things. I was like, well, I mean okay, maybe fun like why not so I threw myself a party and book launch party and had invited all my friends and, and, you know, went on Amazon and like that. And then they were like, well, they print on demand right out of what's now Kindle, and it was create space at the time but anyway, then people started coming to me out of the woodwork and I had a good friend, Dan, who can see me on crystal creations he was like

16:45so anyway so now I have this website and I have this book and people are like emailing me like hey, I'm adopted can ask you some questions hey I'm a birth mom can we talk hey my daughter is pregnant would you talk to her like just out of the woodwork and people are like flocking to me and I'm like, oh my gosh, I've got to do this with my, I have to do this with my life so I went back to school finished my degree still no contact with Eric or his parents, and I get my degree, I go work,

17:18I start working at Bethany and 2013 and I learned. Not just making myself available, I felt like not not like so condemning on myself but like, hey, you need to make yourself available for him, if he ever has questions, you need to answer them.

17:48And so I wrote to his parents I knew enough never to contact him directly he was in middle school that would have been so weird right. I was like, I'm not going to be respectful because I'm just like look, I, because I'm home art you hear those crazy, like crazy stories and oh she's going to come back and want a baby or whatever and I just, it was not that it was just, I want his

18:24love to be a taint right CS Lewis says that about what love is right and I just was like I just want, if he needs that I just want to be available so I just wrote them a letter said hey, I'm available if he wants contact. I'm sick, you know, and his mom reached out to the agency that replaced mercy, and the specialist calls me and she's like, hi, and she's like so you work at Bethany I'm like yeah and so anyway she's like okay, I just needed to make sure like you were in a good spot

18:56and hear from you first, and then I'll talk to them. And so it was all done really well I feel like because the age she went to adopt a moment to the agency agency contacted me directly. They made sure I was in a good place they took care of their you know like my, my son's parents and, and him and all of that. And so for me, I was really lucky because it doesn't always happen that way and it's not always that healthy so anyway she called me directly.

19:26And she was like, yeah, he doesn't, and she didn't say it like this but she, it was basically like he doesn't want anything to do with you. I mean, it was middle school. I was the weird part of his life he was totally like killing it, why would he need to like mess with all these emotions and stuff like that. You know, so I just said okay I if we can just stay in touch ever, you know, email, and I would love some more pictures of him. So every time I would email her, which was about you know, twice a year, she would always send me pictures of him

19:57just doing and gush over him and, and I loved that. I also really loved that she advocated for him. When he didn't, when he wasn't in a place to talk to me or didn't want to talk to me I love that she advocated for him the whole reason I placed him was for someone to love him well and advocate for him I had so much respect for her doing that and so it was really really good for me to see them doing that for him. So I work at Bethany for a while I help as many women as I can I like I'm going to be here and advocate for every expectant parent I can I'm going to make sure they, you know, search out parenting.

20:36And, you know, make sure that that's not an option before they choose adoption. I mean my, my boss was pretty much like hey try to talk everyone out of it, but if they're, if they decide to do it, let's do it well so I'm like, I mean, I can work for you. Like this woman is amazing. Anyway, so, um, then we moved to China, and I'm sure July 2 2019 I am on the treadmill and at home by myself, and I don't know where my family was they were probably the park is that swimming or something who knows,

21:06but I was at home I was like doing laundry and I, and I got on the treadmill and I, I stopped the treadmill like 45 minutes later or whatever. And I, I'm like trolling my phone as I'm like slowly walking like I'm going to get off this thing but, and I have an email with his name attached to it. And I'm like, you know, so I read it really quick. And then I just sit down on the treadmill and just like ball my eyes out. So he's like, look, I was, you know, I was really angry with you. I had to work through a lot of forgiveness.

21:38And if you. I feel like God wants you to be a part of my life and if you want that maybe we can like, you know, have a phone call or something. And so I'm like, I'm like freaking I'm so excited. And so anyway, 24 hours later. It was the next morning for me and it was obviously night for you guys over here. I was on the on the zoom call with him for an hour and a half, and it was like one of like just the most healing moments of my life, just like, I wanted to come through the screen and like hug him and touch him and.

22:15But he was able to articulate some sadness some disappointment and being placed but also say look you don't and I was like, I was able to say I'm sorry, but I placed you and he was like, you don't have to be sorry I've had a great life I'm like yeah I know. I'm, I'm so sorry. Like it can be great. And I can still be brokenhearted that it had to happen. You know, and so it was a really good talk and I didn't know how to end it. Because I was just like, I'll just keep talking to you forever. And he was trying to watch like some soccer match and he's big into soccer he plays soccer and in college.

22:52So, it's like, he's like, hey, are you on Instagram, I'm like, I am on Instagram. And so we got on Instagram like just a few months earlier to maybe a year earlier to stay connected with some friends of mine that I had met expats you know all over the world. So, he's like let's follow each other on Instagram. And he's like, he's so good, like he does want to be part of my life and this phone call has not ruined him.

23:30And that was, I mean, I had, there were some stiff questions and I had to really be in a good, healthy place to be able to answer them, honestly, and for him. So, we Instagram for a while, like I say year and a half cobit hits, and then all of a sudden, we're in the same state. And he's like, I want to come see you for the weekend. And I'm like, okay, and at the time we're living with our best friends, David and ginger who we came here to see on a vacation but cobit didn't let us go back to China.

24:04We're still vacationing. So, but we weren't sure if we were going back or not, it was just kind of like this, everything was up in the air back then. And so we, and we still had a whole flat over there, full, like a three bedroom two bath flat over there full of our stuff so there were a lot of things and so we hadn't secured a place to live so we, we get an Airbnb under the table because you weren't supposed to rent an Airbnb back then. So we like talk to somebody know her under the table.

24:36And I was like, um, like, I was like, okay, if they do, I, it just is what it is. I'm like, you know, place to live. Yeah. So, and just for the weekend, like I, it was just for the weekend, so that he could come and say just like a family. And I think the, I don't know the moment, like the moment is so at this time he's 20 years old system two decades since I'd seen him, and I, he pulls up in the driveway and he gets out of the car.

25:07And I said I want to walk out to him by myself so walked out there, and we just bear hugged each other and like our hearts were next to each other again. You know, for the first time since in two decades, and I just it just felt right, like, it just felt like. That's all I can say it's so right, it just felt like he's, he's home with me, you know, and so we had we had a good weekend and he met his, you know, half brother and sister and my husband and we had a great time and I was super nervous.

25:45I mean I was like a basket case nervous. And I was like, I think I was just still so like insecure like please love me, please keep me in your life, that I wanted to make sure he had a good time and.

26:15Keep me in his life or not, you know, for him it was like, no, you're my birth mom like you're part of my life now, like he had kind of settled it for himself and I was still feeling very insecure so anyway, since then we've seen each other, several times we went out to his college that this past year and see him play college soccer and that was so thrilling for me and yeah I mean he is, I got to get him Christmas presents and watch him open them, and that was really thrilling.

26:45So, um, yeah, I call it a fully open reunion. So, I guess that's what I'm gonna fully open room, and it's really, it's really really glorious, and I wish I had shared his whole life with him because I really missed a lot of moments out of my own fear and insecurity but I'm so thankful that I belong to him like he belongs to me so that's my story. That's

27:19it's all about sports we just saw something and just got to let it out. Right, right. Damn arena bless you. I love that. You got all those emotions into something into something right and I had a lot of, um, birth parents say, like your book helped me really grief, and I'm like, oh, but it's interesting because there's so many adoptive mom's like yeah that was great but I really want to hear about what happened after you.

27:51And so I don't know, Eric and I were just talking when I saw him a couple weeks ago before he went back to college he's like are you gonna write another book and I was like, Oh, like, would you want me to be about us being in reason. He's like, I mean you know he's just wondering but I don't know maybe someday. So a quick side question so you have other books to right. I looked you up on Amazon and it looked like you have a few. I do so I think after I wrote delivered I kind of.

28:22And I started working at Bethany and I was running a post placement support group which I'm a huge advocate of very passionate about post placement support. And so I wrote a journal, like a guided journal for for birth moms, and then I wrote another one. So that's revealing you and being you those are all just, they're just for birth moms and revealing us really like the first it's kind of like that targets that first year after placement like your new normal and all that kind of stuff. And then being you. I think, nine out of nine birth moms would tell you that that's really the good one.

28:55Being you is about the rest like riding this train how you just never get off this train and dating and marriage and parenting and siblings and, you know, forgiving yourself and, you know, belonging versus trying to fit in with with them and so anyway, I think that's someone that resonates the most but the one that gets bought a lot is revealing you because usually like agencies will buy it and give it to people who have placed so.

29:26Then I wrote a book called minors and ours and it's about, it's really about the lifelong connection between birth parents and their children and it's for it's targeted at adoptive parents or prospective adoptive parents just like, hey, you don't have enough love for this kid and that's okay. And they are going to want to know their birth parents and that's okay, or about their birth parents may not know them but know about them, and just kind of helping them be prepared maybe for that

29:58and do it well like the be able to like, support their children and like the search, if there is one, or the connection. And then I wrote a book called pivot and that's really I wrote it for birth bombs but it's kind of for anyone just about being your best self and I don't. And then I have to fiction.

30:29I was going I just didn't stop. I had a contract with the small publishing house called touch point press, and they my, my fiction books, I was really kind of disappointed with, like beach read romances and how they're like always hopping in bed in the first chapter or whatever I was like, really, like this is so unhealthy and what I don't want my readers growing up she's a reader I don't want to read in this junk. So anyway, I set out to read to write kind of a counterculture romance like hey, you don't ever have to like even touch each other so my first book is called both in and now and it's about a girl who

31:09is a child she doesn't like to be touched but she catches the eye, so to speak, of a blind man Kyle and who of course uses his hands to see so just navigating and falling in love with each other without ever having any physical contact and what like in that that can happen, and it's okay and it can be beautiful and right and good and just maybe hopefully empowering to some women reading it that you don't have to give your body over to anyone to find that deep and, you know, secure love, and to be loved.

31:42So my second book, second fiction book is both in and now and it's about it I wrote it while my mom was dying and Lou body dementia so that's really sad. It's definitely not been a for crying for grief is about an adult daughter taking care of her mom at the end of her life. I perhaps most I'm still going because I'm really excited about my next book it is coming out in April of this year. It is called both cleaving and cleaving and it is about a birth mom, and I have not held back, I have not, I have not pulled any punches,

32:18but I mean I really wanted to show what being a birth mom is like so this, it's a birth mom she's a social worker. She works in a group home, and she is in a open adoption with her five year old daughter, and obviously her daughter's parents, and just kind of like some of her friends, and she goes to a post placement support group as well and what that's like and so I think I really kind of talk I talk a lot about adoption issues and that one she's fighting for family permanency and our family preservation she's really fighting

33:02for education by keeping families together but she's up against this judge who has a negative experience from foster care, who's fighting for children by splitting them up from their parents right and so they have this these kind of like worrying ideas and anyway. Yeah, I'm really really excited about about that when I think it's going to be my beta readers have been like this is the most educational adoption. So, that's exciting. So, April, what's the title again.

33:32Both cleaving and cleaving. So you're going to clean it as a contronym so it's a word that means has opposite me. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, yeah, I'm excited. Awesome. Well, we'll probably put links to all of your books in the episode notes, so impressed. Oh gosh, thanks. I think I just can't shut up about things so it's good writing has been really healing for me so yeah I just keep going. That's awesome. Well, so if we jump in and ask me some more questions about your experience. Yes, great. So, one that I had, as you were sharing your story.

34:11What were some of the reactions of your family and friends when you did find out you're pregnant right you mentioned that you were working in a place that probably wouldn't be super happy or okay with that like, what were some of those feelings what were some of those experiences. I mean I think the staff there was very gracious at the Christian camp I was working at they were very gracious and they helped me find, you know, the maternity home they're like you can't really stay here but I mean you know because it was a summer camp and just like squat.

34:42So anyway, they were really gracious to me. I think there was a lot of disappointment to, like, you know better than that kind of thing, you know, um, and I, it's, I gosh, what do I want to say I think what I want to say is that everyone was as gracious as they could be. Most of my friends were my age, and they were church kids and so they were kind of like, you know, like, I want to love you through this.

35:16But, like, they just didn't know how so there wasn't a lot of a lot of negative reaction necessarily it was more like that kind of. I know I'm supposed to love you so I'm going to do that. But I don't know how to love you so I'm just going to kind of like back off from you a little bit. So, Eric my, my good friend who's like a brother to me who I named him after. He was very disappointed. At first I think he was just really broken hearted for me. I didn't understand that the time.

35:50As far as my family I had just I had left my home so I wasn't really even talking to them so I didn't. I don't know I didn't even give them the opportunity to respond about it but I will say, I mean, I'm back in relationship with them now I mean my mom's deceased, so she died never talking about him, or my pregnancy or adoption. And my mommy my dad who I mean he was a lot of the reason I left he certainly never talks about it. And my siblings don't talk about it. I have four siblings.

36:22My younger brother has a wife and she does talk about she's read my books and she's been really really sweet about it to like be very supportive of me. And I think my her husband my brother my younger brother is as supportive as he can be but we didn't really grow up in a family where it was like, hey being vulnerable and putting your heart out and then talking about it publicly. And I think that's the idea and it's okay. So, I think, I think he does the best he can but I, that's part of that's a hard part of being in reunion.

36:53Because I, I'm so proud of all of my kids all three of them, and I, you know, talk about them on my Instagram or whatever. And it's like, I have family members who like every post, except for the ones with Eric included. And it's like, man, they're missing out. I'm pretty, it's kind of disappointing. So, yeah, so we're spot there, but that's part of that birth mom gig man.

37:23That's hard. So thinking back to placement, you talked about how you didn't have an advocate and how that's hard and it's really wrong right. So are there other things from that time in the hospital and from that placement time that you wish had happened differently in addition to that. I think I wish someone would have said, hey, if you want a parent, here's what this would look like. So they would be in the, in the maternity home they did. That's not what they called it but that's, I was there because I was pregnant. It was like a home for troubled girls which they would never call it that now.

38:02So, they did have a woman come and talk to us about like giving birth and like doing a budget if you wanted to parent but it was never it was like, we're offering you things that we know are going to feel overwhelming, and like you, you could you're never going to make it. You know what I mean. So, I didn't feel coerced, but I didn't feel like I could parent either. You know what I mean like no one was going hey you can do this you can parent. Let's, here's what we can do and I will, you know, get you connected to a local resource or whatever.

38:37Yeah, there was none of that so and no one certainly no one was talking about open adoption with me. Once I decided on adoption I was set, I didn't change my mind back or, like, I was, I knew that's what I was going to do I, and that's what I did. So I feel like once I had really decided on adoption I wish someone would have said okay well look, it doesn't have to look like this, it could look like this or this or that or the other or whatever. So I think I wish that had been different that's part of why I went to this field of, you know, working in adoption was because I wanted.

39:12I wanted to say to women, you don't have to have that family in the hospital. It's okay if you want to be alone with your child. And, you know, it's okay if you want to have visits with him more than one year. It's okay. You know these kinds of things like that no one, no one was telling anyone at the time you know I just really wanted to stand up for some women and normalize their process and help them celebrate their child and name your child and hold them close and stay connected and stay healthy and like all these things so yeah, I think there's a lot that went wrong, I do think, in the last you know like I guess not 22 years there's been a lot of research done and a lot more adoptees are speaking

39:56got to listen to adoptees in this thing. Man, they are the voice that we need to hear. And I have learned so much about being a healthy and loving birth mom by listening to adoptees and what they needed and didn't get or what they need aren't getting and all that kind of stuff. So I think we know more now. So hopefully our practice is being informed and we're doing better, but but back then it wasn't great. Yeah. So you mentioned that it was semi-open in the beginning.

40:27Just thinking back, sorry, just for clarification sake, did you get to pick his family? Did you ever meet them? Like, it was like a placement? Yeah, that's probably important, isn't it? Yes. So I went through, okay. So originally, his story is that he was going to be placed out of country and I met the family and I was able to like hand him to them. And my, in the book,

40:58when I write about handing him to the family, I was handing him to this family that he was supposed to go to. But at the time, if you remember your adoption law, the Hague Convention was introduced, right? And it was President Clinton had, he was born in March of 2000. It wasn't until October 2000 that President Clinton signed it, but then it had to be ratified and implemented. And he was going to be well on pushing three, four years old before it was implemented. And the country he was

41:29going to said, we're not going to accept him until it's fully implemented in the United States. And so that family, we grieved it together. They wrote me in this lovely letter. I wrote them back and it just wasn't, it just wasn't God's plan. I mean, you know, there was no way to make it happen. And so he stayed in foster care and went home, not foster, the interim care home, whatever. This was a sweet little grandma and went home two days after Christmas of 2000. So he was in there

42:01for a long time. But in the meantime, when October comes and they're like, look, it's not going to happen. So they sent me a box of books and I go through all the profile books, which back then were like scrapbooks, you know, there was no Shutterfly or anything slick. It was like these bulky books. And there was a girl that graduated from the same high school I did. And I was really interested in her, but then I was like, gosh, that'd be weird to have them in Tulsa. Like I don't, I wouldn't want anything to like cross the streams. I don't know. And then I found a family that I

42:32adored and I turned one of the last pages and they were huge University of Texas fans. And I am an Oklahoma senior through and through. And I was like, no, truly that truly happened. That is the truth. I was like, no, no, I am not. I'm not going to give him to a Texas fan. Sorry. So anyway, I didn't like any of my Senate back. They sent me the second box of books. Like, look, this is kind of all we have right now. So like, you got to find somebody. And I was like, and I

43:03didn't like any of them. So then the adoption lady at the time at Mercy called me. She's like, look, I do have this family that's in North Carolina and they have adopted from us before. And I think just called the other day and I just thought, you know what, I wonder, I wonder if they would just be interested, you know, and anyway, and so she told me a little bit about them. Steven Sue, that's their names. They came to Charlotte. I was living in Charlotte at that time. They came to Charlotte to meet me and I just, I fell in love with them immediately. I

43:35fell in love with her, like sense of like mama bear and she was strong and she was organized and she was just like sweet. And I fell in love with his gentleness. And I, I just thought, no, I just knew I was like, these, these are the people, just these are the people. So he, I did whatever. I don't remember what I had to do by that time. I mean, I've already signed paperwork, but I don't, I had to do something, some other paper. And so anyway, and he, they said yes. And I said yes.

44:07And they went home, he went home. Yeah. Two days after Christmas in 2000. And that was a rough time for me because up until then I was his only mom. So a lot of people in domestic admitted adoption, birth moms, they're only the only mom for like, you know, a few, right. A few days. And I had had nine months, even though he was living with me. And yeah, that was a, it was, that was a really rough month for me, but it got better.

44:37That's a roller coaster. Wow. Yeah. It was a roller coaster. So how do you think your experience of placing Eric shaped your perceptions of parenthood with your younger two kids? Oh my gosh. Well, one thing about being in an open adoption is like, they know my business. Like I, I'm not hiding anything from them. They know mommy had a baby and it was not daddy's baby. And then now that they're old enough to kind of like, we're like,

45:08we've definitely had sex talks at this point. They're like, Whoa, you did that with somebody else. And I'm like, uh, huh. You know, and they're like, Oh, ew. You know, um, and so just like figuring all that out, like they don't, there's not, I guess it feel, it shaped my parenting in that I am just so much more open and vulnerable about like my own shortcomings and, and fears. And like, I've been honest about my sadness, you know, with Eric, with them, we celebrate his birthday every year. Um, and you know, they were little, they didn't really know what they were

45:42doing or where they were doing that. But, um, because I had started telling cadence, you know, my story from the beginning, of course, I also told Deacon. And then when, when Eric manifested right in our lives, I mean, he was just as much there as to see his mind. He, they were so excited. There was no, there was nothing like hidden or any shame associated, um, for them and anymore. Like I didn't have, there wasn't a big reveal. It was just like, he's always been part of our family and now he's just present. He's just here with us. We can touch him and hug him. So, um,

46:16um, I think that was, uh, scary, but super, super helpful. And, um, I, I think too, I just, I don't know. I think, I think that's probably the biggest way to shape my parenting, just that vulnerability with them of making mistakes. I think that's a good lesson to learn. I mean, I can't say that because I don't know like at all how you experience or feel it, but to be able to be vulnerable and open and that kind of place for your children, I think that

46:47it's, it's a healthy thing for them to see that, wow, you know, everyone's not perfect and everyone make mistakes and that's okay. That's part of this journey called life. Yeah. Yeah. It's been, it's been really good. I mean, you know, I think that, um, I wouldn't have been, I really don't, I really don't know. I think I would have had the sense of like, I've got to be, uh, not perfect, but like, you know, in their eyes, I am perfect, you know? And so part of, you know, perfection, this side of heaven, right? Nobody's perfect,

47:21but part of like being made new is that we are making mistakes and we are saying we're sorry. And like, sometimes we got to lean in and our consequences follow us for the rest of our lives, but we can still show up and do the right thing today. And so I think that's a good lesson that they are learning and keep learning through me. Yeah. I think those are great lessons to learn for sure. Um, so you have been at least for the last decade or so, uh, an adoption professional,

47:52and part of the adoption triad or community for 22 years, right? Uh, a lot has changed, a lot has progressed. Um, but what would you say are some of the challenges still facing the adoption community and maybe share some of your thoughts on how we might address some of those? Um, okay. Well, I'm just going to be real honest. That's good. I was going to be honest. Um, I think there are too many people trying to fill holes

48:22still, um, too many prospective adoptive parents coming in going, I just want a baby or I can't have a baby. So I won't win. I'm not saying that's not a good place to start, but if you finish there, like, I mean, there are times where, okay, let me give you an example. This, and I can talk about this because this is not a client. I got connected to a girl in my local community. So outside of my work and this girl was like, Hey, you're a birth mom. I'm thinking about doing this. And I was great. Let's go get pizza and talk about it. She's 18. She's precious. I was like, okay, are you sure

48:53you want to do this? You know, I do my whole thing just cause that's me. And, um, she's like, yeah, she's like, yeah, this, this family though, I don't know. They're like, they're kind of putting a lot of pressure on me. They want me to play this certain music and their voices to the baby at night while I sleep. And, and I'm like, wait, what? And she's like, yeah. And I'm like, okay, hold on just a second. I, uh, well, how does that make you feel? You know? And she's like, it just makes me feel weird.

49:23And so, um, I was like, I really think that you should consider whether this is the right family for you or not. So she might, she had counselors, like I was not her counselor. She had a, you know, a professional counselor she was seeing and she was able to go back and talk with her counselor and then talk with the family and say, Hey, I don't think this is right. And, and the couple was pretty upset. And it was like, we've been wanting a baby so long and we can't have children. And just this

49:57kind of like language and this kind of idea that like, I'm entitled to a baby because I want one is really terrifying. Um, because it not only just, you're setting yourself up for failure, it is an idol that you're asking God to breathe into. And that my friend will sink you so fast. So that's, it's, it's scary too, because then you're up, that means the baby, no pressure to fulfill mom and dad's whole lives and dreams and hopes. You know what I mean? Um, no one should

50:31treat their children like that at all. Um, and so I think that's one of my biggest concerns is that there's not, um, there needs to be better, more, I don't, I don't know what the word is, but like the kind of like raw education of like, this is about a life and it matters and it's not yours. This is about this child's life. And if what's best for this child is for his or her birth parents to stay involved, even if that's scary, then you're going to have to be in a place where you can do

51:03that or you don't need to do it at all. Um, so that's one of my big things is that just the, you know, filling up, filling that hole for a baby or whatever. Um, that just, I think it's, it's still happening a lot. It's still happening a lot. Um, the idea that there are all these advertisements for like, Hey, we want a baby. Or if you don't want your baby, you know, my husband and I want to adopt or work, host study ready. Like that kind of thing, that kind of like

51:33advertising to me really, really speaks to, we're not interested in any relationship. We're not interested in anything really hard. We're like, you know, again, we're just trying to, we just want a baby. And I just, I think that there's a lot that we should just not be able to do that. I mean, well, that should just stop. It should just stop. Just I'm like, ah, um, yeah. So that's, I think one of the big things still in the adoption community. The other thing is that, um, I'm not saying that I agree with every birth mom, adoptive parent, adoptee out there,

52:08but just speaking to the adoptees, when they're brave enough to talk about their experience and there are people adopted adoptive parents, birth parents, whoever out there who publicly shame them for having an experience like to me, that is horrifying. Like we should be in a place where we can hear these people speak and hear what they have to say without it being an attack on our person, you know, or our way of life or our idea. It's like, we should be able to just hear the

52:42experience and consider it. And I know not everyone's that healthy, but we certainly shouldn't condone, you know, this kind of, there's, there's a lot of hate going on in the internet, right? When an adoptee speaks out and said, no, that's, that's not that great. Or my white parents were racist and, or whatever. And people like, well, at least they adopted you, you know, or at least they gave you a home or whatever. Like that is, there's so much like fear and like people taking things so personally, cause they're afraid. What does it mean to adopt a child? And I think

53:18mean if adoption isn't perfect, isn't the right answer, isn't the, you know, you know, it's like they can't handle their ideals being challenged. And I think that's a big problem. I think we should all be shutting up and listening to a lot more adoptees. And I think there are some times where we can agree to disagree, but we can still listen. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think those

53:48are my two big things. Listen to adoptees and don't just get a baby because you want one. As adoptive parents, we have to regularly kind of check our ego at the door, right? And just make sure like at the end of the day, everything that we're doing is for our kids, right? And it should be. It needs to be. Yeah. And sometimes maybe in my ideal or what I used to perceive as an ideal, isn't the right thing. And that's totally okay. Now that I understand the way that I do,

54:19but it takes time to get there. Yeah, for sure. And I think on the birth mom side of things, I mean, there have been adoptees that have hurt my feelings, but I needed to hear what they had to say. I needed to just have that information so that I could check myself and go, am I doing that to him? Have I responded in a way that he could interpret what I've said or what I've done or not done in this way? And it's been super informative to just stop and check myself and go,

54:55wait a minute, this is not about me. And this is not about his parent. This is about him. Adoption is child should be, should be child centered, child focused the whole time. And so we, as parents, birth or adopted, we got to show up and choose that every single moment, right? Wait, this is about him. What's best for him? How do we love him best? And even talking with birth parents sometimes who like their child is like, I don't want to, I want to close our relationship for a

55:27while or whatever and how hard that is. But if you can just stop and think outside of your own feelings and go, okay, if this is what they feel like is best for them, then we can celebrate that they're strong enough and feel loved enough and safe enough with us to say that to us. And then we can celebrate that. And what can we do in the meantime, while we're disconnected, what can we keep doing to stay connected to them? Let's write them a card every month. Let's still buy him birthday presents. Let's like whatever it is that you can do and you can tuck it away in a little

55:58treasure box. And if and when they come around, they're going to know you were still there present thinking about them, loving them, trying to stay connected. And that's going to mean a lot, you know, that's going to be a lot to them instead of like, oh, well, you ruined my life and I'm so mad at you and I couldn't, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, hang on a second. That's about you. Let's go back to, let's go back to them. Let's go back to the adoptee. So I love that so much. So when you were talking about when you and Eric had reunification, the first time you talked,

56:28correct me if I'm remembering this wrong, but he had some grievances, right? Some things that had been hard for him that he wanted to talk about. And I love as you're sharing this, just thinking back and saying, wow, yeah, and you listened and you were open and able to hear that and build this stronger relationship as you listened and learned his perspective. Yeah. I mean, I really, I got to say, I had to be, I was really connected with a lot of birth moms for, I mean, for the last decade,

56:59I've been pretty connected with birth moms and I've been definitely doing my own work on my own, right? My own therapy. So I feel like, you know, this kind of communal healing and also individual healing and pursuing all that, just being, I wanted to be ready at any time if he had something hard to say, because he didn't have to thank me. You know what I mean? They don't, they shouldn't have to thank us. They shouldn't be expected to thank us. He might be like, screw you. I hate you. And I needed to be in a place to hear that because he needed to say it to me is what I felt like. I felt

57:30like if I can just be present for him, it'll be more important. And I do think that, I mean, he's going to feel it anyway. So why can't he feel it with me? You know, and he was hurt. And rightly so. He had every right to be hurt. So yeah, I'm really thankful that I was in a position to hear him. I do think that because I just am a hundred percent me as much as I can be, that he's

58:01been able to be a hundred percent him. And, you know, we've had some really, really good talks. He's told me some things that I think probably he hasn't told his parents or many people. And, and I treasure, I treasure every little thing he tells me. It's just, I just soak it up and savor like my moments with him because they're just such a gift. You know, we have to live without them at all. I mean, that's moment, any moment I get, I'm just like soaking it up. Wow. I mean, your story was fantastic. I love the way you articulate, articulate your feelings and lessons

58:33that you've learned. Is there anything else that you would share as we're wrapping up as kind of some maybe parting thoughts or final words to people that are listening to this podcast? Well, I mean, I guess I would reiterate like to whether you're an adoptive parent or a birth parent to keep your, keep your focus on your child and loving them well. And I do want to say one of the biggest things I learned in, in working in adoption is sometimes we, we can both say, I love you, but mine might be. So for example, I might say, yes, my love has four right angles

59:08and straight lines. And you might say, Oh, mine does too, but mine's a square and yours is a rectangle. Right. So we can like both be passionately love the same child and it could look a little different and that's okay. Right. So that our children have room for all of our love. And so we can keep it child centered, child focused and not have, yeah, stopping of ourselves or having any sort of like, I don't know, feelings of competition or any, like there's no competition. Like they're just like, there aren't competition between the children in your home. You don't like,

59:40you know what I mean? Okay. So that's one thing. I think the other thing I do want to say is that there are birth parents who are listening to this and you need a place to connect or a post placement support crap or need to get connected to one. You can email me at Michelle at Michelle foreign books dot com. And I will get you connected to one either in your area as best as I can or a virtual one, a lot of them are virtual right now. So post placement support is super important. It's very, very hard at the beginning, but man, you're going to be glad you did it. So yeah, that's it. Yeah,

60:15we, we have fully agree and support that idea too. So we'll, if you're okay, if we can put your email address in the show notes and maybe we'll, we'll tag you on Instagram as well. So maybe that's an avenue that they can connect with you as well. Yeah. Good. Well, Michelle, thank you so much, so much for sharing and for being on the podcast with us. Thank you guys. It's been really great. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. And again, to Michelle

60:45Thorne, thank you so much for all that you shared with us and just for being so much fun to talk to you. Having our interview with Michelle, it was one of those things where like my face hurt afterward because I was just smiling so much. She is just one of those people who radiates this life and joy and being around her was just a true pleasure. We really enjoyed it. And I really was smiling so much that my face hurt at the end. And obviously it wasn't all like happy stuff that we were talking about, but she is just such a great person. I loved talking to her. She's just really outstanding.

61:21A couple takeaways. One thing that I really liked was that she was very adoptee centric, that we really needed to focus on the adoptee, the child. Yeah. And not only did she say that, but she practices what she preaches, right? Where she had her reunification with her son and he had some grievances he wanted to talk about. And she was open to hearing that. And what an important way to build trust and connection in that relationship, right? I thought that was really just so neat that she was able to talk about that. And I think

61:56that she doesn't only talk the talk, but she walks the walk. Yeah. I really appreciated when she was ready to reach out and have that relationship. She also recognized and identified that, you know, just because I'm ready doesn't mean that he'll be ready, but I want him to know that I'm here and that anytime that he wants to, I'm available. Yeah. I also loved how she was advocating for post placement services for birth parents. That's such an important thing in our community.

62:27Yeah. And she mentioned this. Um, and I think I'll highlight this. She said it's really, really hard right after placement. And from our personal experiences and experiences of friends that we've seen, it is difficult right afterward to want to receive that counseling or that support, but it is also really, really beneficial. And so I think that as, as part of the adoption community, if we can keep bringing that up and keep that in the center of our conversation, um, that hopefully

62:59it will become more and more natural. And also options counseling. I loved how she talked about how when she has worked with expectant parents who are considering adoption, her first thing she's working on is really making sure they understand all of their options and essentially seeing if she can talk them out of placement and see like, is this really what you want to do? Yeah. And ultimately expectant parents are going to choose whatever is best for them and their child. And we

63:29should be really supportive. Whatever that choice is. Yeah. I think that's a really healthy way to approach it too. There's so much coercion and there's a lot of things that happen that shouldn't in the adoption world. And I just think that's a great practice to ensure that you're really providing the care that you can to expect parents and helping them, empowering them to make the decision that is going to be right for them and feel right to them ultimately. Yeah. And I mean, right, right at the end of the episode, she kind of said it, says it how she feels it right. That

64:02just because you want a baby doesn't mean you should have a baby. You're entitled to one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that baby is not going to fill a hole that is created by infertility or, and I just like, you know, how she talked about putting how much pressure that that puts on a child. Yeah. How that's really not a healthy way to treat your child either. Yeah. Yeah. She's just so wise. I loved talking to her. I loved all of these thoughts she shared. They're really important things for

64:34all of us, but especially adoptive parents on this topic that we're talking about now to consider and think about as we're trying to make sure we're doing right for our kids. Yeah. Why am I adopting or why am I interested in adoption? That's a really important question that you have to think pretty deeply about. Yeah. Awesome. And also just driving home that point that in adoption, we all need each other, right? And adoptees, you aren't going to be enough as their adoptive parent.

65:04They're going to need connection to their roots, to their birth family and their heritage. And however that looks in different situations, it's just such an important thing to remember that we need each other. All right. Well, again, thanks to Michelle. Thanks to each of you for listening to this episode. And we'll be back next week with our last episode for season two. I can't believe it.

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