Sara | Supporting Teen Adoptees

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 57. We're the Nelsons. I'm Shaun. And I'm Lanette. Today we are so excited to share an interview with an adoptee. Her name is Sarah and she is from Pennsylvania. She's a Chinese-born adoptee and her story is wonderful and I love the work she's doing now. Yeah, Sarah is a social worker who works primarily coaching teenage adoptees. She is also in the process of becoming certified to be a therapist. In this episode she

0:32shares her thoughts and advice for the adoption community to better help listen to and validate adoptees. Particularly she talks about teen adoptees since that is who she primarily works with. I just loved hearing this conversation between Lanette and Sarah and I really think that you'll enjoy it. I think she's very well spoken and shares a just really clear language that paints a really good picture. Yeah, she was so fun to talk to. I loved doing this interview and

1:05just so happy to share it. So we'll turn the time over to Sarah. We are here on the podcast with Sarah. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Sure. So to start off, can we have you introduce yourself, share some things about you? Sure. So hi, my name is Sarah Odisio. I live in Lancaster County. I was adopted from China. I know I'll

1:39get into that more later, but I live in Lancaster County in Pennsylvania. And a little bit about myself, I live here with my husband Jared and we have an interesting mix of cultures even within our family because my husband, he grew up in Peru, but he was born in the Netherlands so he's half Dutch, half Peruvian and then I am 100% Chinese. And so we have our own little culture of our family

2:09within Lancaster County. And so at home, I live with him and then we have two cats. We have one big fluffy cat named Misty and then one tiny little new kitten named Milo and then we have a little hamster too. So that is our family as of now. Yeah. And what are some things that you enjoy, some hobbies? So I, along with Jared, we both like to visit new places and try new foods. I know people are saying, oh, I'm a foodie, I'm a foodie, but I would truly say I am a foodie.

2:43And I just love trying new food. I'm game to try any type of food and any variation. And along with that, we like music as well. So we like going to concerts and anything with music and food is like a huge plus for both of us. And then I like being outside and taking walks and yeah, that's kind of what we like, what I like and Jared too. That's awesome. Have you guys found a way to kind of incorporate food with all of the different backgrounds that you bring together? Yes. I think

3:13as, as I got married and I started to try to cook more for him and I and him cooking as well, we like to try different foods and we like to cook too, not just eat out all the time. And our favorite ethnic food is anything in the Eastern Asian, Hispanic type of food. We'd love like any type of staple of rice meal, rice and meat and like those types of spices more than like mashed potatoes or like a steak or something. So, so we definitely have come to love like the, the food

3:46of like Asian food, Indian food, Hispanic food, all of that. So very cool. Well, now I'm hungry. Yeah, right. That's awesome. All right. So can you share your adoption story, whatever you want to share? We know that you're an adoptee, but yeah. Yeah. So I was adopted from China. It's in the Yangzhou, Yangzhou, China. It people most, mostly I have to tell people it's near Shanghai. They're

4:17like, well, where is that in China? And the two main places Shanghai or Beijing, and then there's Hong Kong, that's kind of a little separate and I'm closer to Shanghai. So I'm more in the suburbs area. I was in an orphanage setting until I was as far as I know, until from close to birth, probably until 13 months of age. And that's when my parents adopted me. And it's, what's interesting as I've worked with adoptive families now, I have been able to hear different stories. And a lot of

4:50times, I don't know if this is more common in maybe like South Korean adoptions or whatnot, but a lot of times the babies now have been brought to the U S and then met at the U S airport for the family. My parents, they actually went to China. Now this was back in 1997 when I was adopted and they flew to China. They also did that trip or I might as well say that track because it's quite a trip for my sister who was adopted before me, not biologically related. And so both times

5:23they flew to China and they spent probably about a couple of weeks or so getting to know the culture. And I find that to be a really cool part of my story because when I tried to ask my parents on different occasions, what do you remember? They have pictures of like some of their sightseeing adventures as well as when they were trying to like delve into the culture as much as they could within two weeks of being there. And so, yeah. And so I was adopted at 13 months old. I was in an orphanage setting. So I've noticed now that I've learned more about trauma, I've noticed how

5:57maybe that type of setting has really been a significant part of the trauma. I wouldn't say as far as my mom knew, the orphanage was a good one. Sometimes there's really awful settings for orphanages, but this one, as best as she could tell, again, they wouldn't let her in. So that was a whole nother thing. But as best as she was told and from what she could tell, it was, they did the best they could there. But even when people are doing the best they can, there's probably a

6:28lot more babies and there are arms to hold them. So all that to say, I think that there is a lot of trauma just from being in that type of orphanage setting. So after that, I grew up in the Lancaster County, Pennsylvania area. It's Amish country. That's like when I talk to people, that's like the only thing that they might understand or connect when they hear Lancaster.

7:00So I didn't grow up with the Amish, but we had some neighbors who were. But I grew up in a Christian home. My mom was a Christian school teacher and then she became a stay-at-home mom when my sister and I were adopted. And then my dad was a pastor. So I grew up in a Christian home next to the church. So I just kind of remember my childhood being, instead of going to a park for a playground, our playground was running around the big church building and playing in the church

7:33attic and then also learning to ride a bike in the cemetery across the street. So that was kind of like my childhood. I went to a small Christian school growing up and I remember being one of the only Asians in my class. And it was kind of like, yeah, just in the area. It wasn't as big of a thing until maybe my age and after. Then I think adoptions kind of skyrocketed, especially adoptions in China. One other piece, I guess what's interesting is my sister actually, she's two years

8:07older than me, but within our county, she was the first girl adopted from China. So I remember my, I don't remember this. I wasn't there then, but I was told and my parents have a news article that was written about them adopting my sister and she's only two years older than me. It kind of goes to show within my local area, my sister is the oldest generation of female adopted from China. So I think that's kind of interesting. And yeah, adoptions after me, they just have more,

8:41not a lot, but they have more accessibility to like finding some more answers. And so the era and the year I was born, it's really scarce, information's very scarce to find. Yeah, so that's a little bit about my adoption. Interesting. So was your sister adopted from the same region in China as you? She wasn't. And what's also interesting is she was in a more of a foster care setting, not to go too much into like her story, since it's her story. I have been able to

9:14compare the differences though. And we're also just very different people and different personalities, but I have seen some differences in maybe what could have pointed to me being raised in an orphanage setting and for a longer period of time, because my sister, she was adopted at six months of age. So not her whole first year of life was in China and she was in a foster care setting. So she did have that one-on-one care from her caregiver. And so, yeah, and she's actually closer to Beijing area. So we are different regions. We look different. Some people,

9:49they're like, you guys look the same. I was like, no, but we don't. No, yeah. But we are not biologically related at all in any way. All right. One more follow-up question. Do you remember Chinese at all? Do you remember anything about being in China? Yeah. That's a good question. I don't remember anything, but from what my mom had told me is when once they adopted me in the hotel we were staying in, they would have, I think it was Sesame Street playing on the TV

10:24and it was in Chinese, obviously. And she said I was very engaged and attuned to it. And she thought I definitely did understand. And I probably would have understood the aunties, that's what they call them, the orphanage caregivers. I probably understood them, but yeah, I don't remember any of that. It's so interesting when you're a baby being adopted and then you're like, what are my memories versus what are like my parents have told me versus what I've

10:56seen in pictures and what I've tried to like, am I making up a memory just from seeing a picture? So it's really hard to differentiate that. I probably don't actually remember anything though, because I was only a year old, but it's cool to know. Oh, I probably did understand Chinese at one point. Yeah. But I don't know any now. Yeah. Okay. So when do you think you first realized that you were adopted? So for my situation, it was never a question. I have worked with some families

11:29where they're deciding like when's the best time to tell information and to share that, or I guess in like the worst case scenario share that they are adopted. That's probably not ideal, but with my situation, it was always, it was never a secret, partly because we looked very different. It was kind of my sister and I against the world. That's how it felt kind of in our own little kid brains. So, and I think that was probably partly the purpose of my parents adopting me after my sister.

11:59They didn't have any other children. So it was just my sister, then they chose to adopt me. And they had thought about going a third time to adopt a boy, but then other circumstances arose that they couldn't get over there and do it. But so my sister and I were definitely Asian and then my parents, they're Caucasian. So it was, there was no secret with that, but even apart from the looking different as, as early as I can remember, it was just my mom reading to us every night, different

12:29stories and choosing. I can't even remember the names of the books. My sister would be able to remember, but choosing books that were very pointed towards like adoption and families looking different or having, yeah, like having someone in your heart that you're, that's not related to you or having someone that you love be far away even things like that. And I think that was very, that was important. So the word adoption, I knew at an early age and it was, it was like, yeah,

13:01it wasn't like a weird word or like a new thing for me. One way, and I have told many other people this as I work with them or in like other interviews and whatnot, it's kind of funny. One way my mom would explain adoption to us was using this, the song in Tarzan. We watched Disney, of course, in Tarzan and there's lots of like lost themes in Disney. It's kind of crazy. Lots of like lots of people losing parents and loved ones in those Disney movies. But one of them was, was

13:32Tarzan and, and the song, you'll be in my heart. That song, my mom, we loved the soundtrack. We loved Phil Collins and we listened to it all the time. But that song in particular, I think one time my mom said like, this is like you and I essentially referring to herself as the mama gorilla and Shawna and my sister and I being little Tarzans. And she said, this is our, this is like our song because you're always in my heart, even if we look different. And so just movies like that

14:03and songs and stories, they used heavily when we were growing up. I love that. And it sounds like it was a really open dialogue. It was. Yeah. So did you feel comfortable bringing up any issues or any concerns you had? I did. I don't know. I don't know about my sister. And I think that adds to just the fact of every, every person who's had adoption as part of their story, they just process it so differently. And in time, because I was just, I'm just this external thinker and

14:36processor anyway. And I wear my heart on my sleeve. And then my sister was very, not that she didn't have questions, but she just like more like keep to herself or she ends what my mom would do. She, if I had a question, she would kind of assume my sister's thinking it too. And so she'd make sure to answer my questions while we're both in the room. So she tried to, she tried to do it that way. Cause yeah. And you can't, and you can't like force someone to think about something they're not thinking about. But at the same time, like you have to wonder, she might be thinking about things,

15:06just internalizing it more. But I was definitely the external processor and had questions, but I felt comfortable and I felt safe to like express them. Yeah. That's great. So you mentioned that adoption has changed in the years since you were adopted, but I'm wondering what your experiences have been regarding searching or looking for your biological family. I haven't done any formal

15:36searching as far as hiring someone. Cause that's kind of in my situation, that's kind of just the route you need to go if you want to have any slim chance of it. And so what's interesting, I think it was after like maybe 1998 or early 2000s, China started requiring people to post finding places in the newspapers that are finding ads. And so that I just missed that when I was born in 1996. And so I think there's more opportunity for people to like hire someone to look up their

16:12finding place article in the newspaper because that became a requirement. And even just knowing where you were found, I feel like is huge information. Cause even knowing your finding place, it doesn't direct you to birth parents, but it's still huge when you don't know anything. And so I don't really know even where I could go back to China to visit. I could go back and visit my orphanage, but even the chances are so slim to go back and just kind of find factual information of where I was left. So what I was told is that I was left in a busy hospital.

16:46But then I watched a documentary and then I learned, oh, even that could be made up. So then I was like, oh, so even the stuff I know, it may not even true. It was kind of heartbreaking and interesting at the same time. But to answer your question, what I have done is I've done a DNA test and when did I do that? I guess I did that a couple of years now and I did actually pay extra to have my health information. Cause I knew nothing and I learned a couple of interesting things about my

17:16health. Nothing like dramatically scary, which is good. But as far as like connections, no matches have been made that are like closer than maybe like fourth cousin. Okay. But it's one of those things that keeps updating as more people put in their DNA and search. And so every once in a while I still check it and I'll get like email notifications. So there's kind of like, I'm still hopeful. I don't know if this is the, not romantic in me or the

17:48fantasy person in me, but I just like, I do want to know my birth parents, have a relationship. There's been times where sometimes I wish I could just see a picture of them and hear and watch a video of them or like have that imaginary power to like be invisible and just observe them before I decide to like form a relationship. Because I know realistically there's a language barrier and just you don't know how they feel and you don't want to disrupt their whole life and whatnot. So

18:21there's that piece of me that definitely just wants to like observe. And I think a lot of my questions that are in me could be answered just by seeing a picture of them and hearing their voice and watching a video of them. Just that basic stuff you want to know that most people don't ever question. Like who do I look more like? Where did I get my singing from? Yeah, honestly, those are the two main questions I wonder. Where did I get some like gifts and skills from and then like who do I look like or what do they look like? Yeah, I think those are really innate important questions. Yeah. So you work with other adoptees.

18:56So what advice do you give them when they're searching for birth family? So this actually has been the topic within the adoption realm that I struggle with the most when I help people. Just because it's one of those things I have no, I haven't been able to experience it. So my mind's not even like thinking in that way oftentimes. But what I in thinking about this question before, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think it's like, I think

19:26it's like, I think it's before this question was a question on a FlagstaffxEistor community. and there are laws and they don't In thinking about this question beforehand. I would I definitely To try to be aware of. And a lot of Formula is cut a lot along with the math enemy that we don't have. I mean, people just cram their students into飛躍 posters. They're too know that it's filling a void and that maybe that void might not be able to be met or that it will be met in a different way than you're expecting.

20:01So really know your intentions in every step of the searching process. Know your intentions, know your expectations, know your triggers. It doesn't mean if something does trigger you to stop it, just knowing how to address it if something, because it will come up definitely. And I think when people don't cope, they're actually coping just unhealthily because you're always going to cope somehow. It's just being intentional to do it healthily or unhealthily. And then, and then also I would just, this is something that really helped me kind of creating this narrative of caring for yourself at the age that the trauma happened.

20:42I think that can be really helpful when you're in some really hard scenario of a step-by-step searching process, or if you do somehow form a connection with birth parents, it's kind of like you as your adult version is like, yes, I'm ready for this. But then we also have that kid in us that might not be ready or that we just need to attend to. And it's kind of weird. It's almost like you have to see, you have to see yourself, see your kid self or baby self whenever that trauma happens, see that as outside of yourself and care for that person.

21:20That's still you. I don't know if that makes any sense. But yeah, I think that's great. Great advice. So what have you struggled with regarding adoption and what do you wish other people understood? Oh, this one, this one was a hard one for me because I think I think just the basis of feeling different from people, but not really knowing how to put that to words, because at the end of the day, if I look at the grand scheme of life and everyone's adoption stories, we should never compare stories, but it's hard not to sometimes.

22:01And I think I have a really great situation. So who am I to like be, be feeling who am I to be victimizing myself, you know what I mean? Essentially, but that's not I've learned that's not really how I should be thinking about it at all. But I think the biggest struggle for me has really just been feeling different internally feeling different from people all the time, and not really knowing where that came from for the longest time, or having it act out and like negative behaviors and like middle school and high school, and not really understanding that it was connected to something else.

22:37So like in middle school and high school, I said, all the time to my parents, I don't understand, or like you don't understand no one gets me that was it no one gets me, no one understands me. And then my parents would be like, well, we want to understand help us understand and it would turn in this big fight. And eventually, it really came down to me, I don't understand myself, and my it was kind of like a cry for help me saying no one gets me it was really saying, I don't get myself and I don't know what's wrong with me or what's different.

23:08So I think that was the hardest. That was the biggest struggle was feeling. Yeah, just the grief and the sadness or feeling sad or over dramatic when I wasn't really over dramatic it was just this like deep grief that I didn't know where it came from, sometimes I would just like, cry at night. And my mom saw that as anxiety as a kid. And it was anxiety but then now since I've been doing like more deeper adoption work in the past years my mom, my mom and I have really good conversations, and she did tell me at one point.

23:42She took me to the doctor because I just felt sick to my stomach all the time and she thought something was wrong with me physically so she took me to the doctor and it was really, and I checked out like physically I was very healthy. And she was like, I don't edit she didn't know what it was and she told me within the last couple years it was, I think it was anxiety and you just missing your birth mom. And my, but it like came out in like these physical symptoms of feeling sick to my stomach because me as a, as a seven year old or so didn't notice say like I feel anxious and sad about birth mom.

24:14It was, um, I don't feel good I feel sick I don't feel good. And my mom didn't really know quite what to do with that. That's so interesting. Yeah. So what would your advice be for how the adoption community can be more supportive of adopting you. So, with youth, it's really, it's really interesting they're in such a unique and fundamental or pivotal, I guess is the word developmental stage, like they're they're in the stage where they're, they're needing, not just wanting, but

24:50needing to form other social connections outside of their own family. And so that can either be done poorly and unhealthily and finding love in the wrong places, having secret relationships whatever sneaking out, or it can be done. And so it's not just wanting to have more friends, and then maybe not wanting to hang out on a Friday night as much as much with mom and dad, you know, and I think sometimes parents get like shook by that because they're like why isn't my team like hugging me anymore or wanting to spend as much time with

25:20me, and it's actually completely normal that they're that they're seeking other connections but I think what. What adds to the complexity for those who have been adopted is that identity piece that they're trying to find with other people has already kind of been like stunted with with them. I don't even know really how to word it but it's just it's just adds much, much more layers and complexity. When they're adopted and coming from a different culture and a birth family, missing people who maybe they've never even met, because that's like, that's such a real feeling

26:01feeling like you don't really belong anywhere when you're in this like developmental stage of wanting to belong and needing to belong and finding people that you can connect with outside of your immediate family. And I think just understanding that fact, I think is what could support adopting you understanding what's normal development for teens, because some people don't even know what normal development is, they see it as them pushing away. When it's not really them pushing away they're actually doing what they're supposed to do in this stage, like not pushing away pulling away, or like gravity towards other people.

26:39So understanding and being educated and just normal development for that age but then understanding also like that that might look different, and a little harsher sometimes because of their trauma and their past, and also understanding that even they might be at this social developmental stage but emotionally because of their trauma they might be lower. So understanding that they could be having many different ages within different within different parts of their life, like cognitively lower here emotionally lower here but maybe what I call have the street smarts and the, and the outward maturity,

27:18because they've lived a lot of life already of like a 25 year old but they're only 16. So just understanding that it can be like this puzzle. This puzzle. Yeah, so and then just empathy. I think a lot goes a long way for a teenager for someone to mirror their reaction to something. And like still an appropriate way, I think, some people don't want to encourage like the attitude of a teenager. And I think, like, acting annoyed with them about something like wow I can really feel your annoyed or yeah they shouldn't have done that like just kind of like mirror, like having them. It's more about feeling heard, then knowing how to fix something.

28:01That's really what I love that that validation. Yeah. I didn't do that because I needed that. It's like, it's like close personal, like, relatable feelings that I have with teens, which is probably why I like to work with them. That's awesome. Alright, so what do you think some of the challenges are of being an international adoptee.

28:34I think it's the, the, well you look different. Obviously just the having having your, your ethnic, your ethnic background and then like who you feel like you. What culture you feel like you are versus what culture you were raised in having that is really complex and difficult. It's.

29:05And I've seen I've seen some families that are culture within a culture so like me being around the Lancaster area. There's a lot of like Mennonite families, and that is a very interesting and unique culture within just the American culture. When they've done international adoptions it's like even more layers to it so I think that is a challenge the other challenge that I don't know people think about as much.

29:35If it's an infant adoption. Internationally there's also are just not internationally just an infant adoption I think sometimes people think there's not as much trauma with that, which is actually what my dad thought he was kind of apprehensive to do. Apprehensive to do adoption because he had adopted siblings and it, and it had gone terribly wrong. He saw like the real horrors of the situations and so he was really adamant to adopt a baby and have like a close adoption.

30:08It's very interesting because he didn't he didn't know that there's still trauma, just from the removal of just severing that attachment with birth mom that's a huge truck. And so, I think people understanding that and I and I know it's not all infant adoptions that are international but I think that is common. Yeah, people to adopt infants internationally. And growing up in Pennsylvania, I imagine it's not incredibly diverse where you grew up.

30:42So, yeah, it sounds like your parents were obviously doing the best they could but do you feel like you had racial mirrors or any special attention paid to your culture. Yes. So my parents trying to do the best with what they knew they they would, um, we would have these group of families that we would get together with at least once a year maybe even twice of doing.

31:12Well one of them was Chinese New Year and then just maybe another get together with other Chinese adopted families. That's great and I'm still close to at least two of them. And then another really. So it was more. It was more just finding other people in the same boat as us, not necessarily like having us learn the language. So, yeah, I think that was the culture if we wanted to, we would have been able to my mom would also she would try to. She's not a cook. So unfortunately, and I love food. So, so unfortunately, food wasn't much into like, um, they didn't really express the culture with

31:51food much which I think could have been really nice for me growing up. But they did, like, we would watch like documentaries and at the time my mom, my sister and I kind of like grown watching them but it was very it was actually really good. So it was hard for them to know like, what do we just kind of like thrust into their learning. Because we know it's important versus like, let them lead at their pace, like that's always really hard to to navigate, but um, but yeah I'm still close to to actually one of the, or I still keep in contact with one of the babies that was from my orphanage,

32:28and my parents went to. They had an adoption group that they went with. And one of them. I don't know I don't we say we probably shared a crib with one another but we probably didn't. But it's just knowing that you still know someone that was in your earliest stages of life, even though they're not biologically related I consider her like sister and we don't talk to her all the time anymore. But that was, that was huge to still know that person.

32:58And having us get together. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. So, do you think that your adoption experiences have influenced your career path. I would say, yes, most definitely, but not necessarily intentionally first, so I chose to do social work with the intention like far down the line. Thankfully I'm getting closer to the end of the road but to be a counselor someday. And so I'm looking towards my clinical license right now.

33:33But, so I went the social work route to try to get into the mental health counseling route which was a long journey in itself. But I didn't have the intention of working with adopted families specifically I just knew I cared about people and I wanted to work with people and help people. So that's why I went into social work but then I, it was kind of a mistake almost, I had a my master's level internship was supposed to be at one place, and I actually I didn't get that for a really silly reason on my part it was, it was very, it's a funny

34:13story in itself, but then, because I didn't get that one internship it led me to another internship which was an adoption agency. And I was like sure I'll do, I'll, I'm interested in work with that I mean it's part of my story I yeah I can help them out but it really challenged me in my own stuff and that was only in 2018 2019 so so all that to say I really only been really digging deep into my own healing and story for the past three years, three years three years now.

34:48And so yeah so it wasn't intentional but then through that internship it, it sparked this interest and desire, and. Very cool. And I love what you do so can you tell us about your work with core. Yeah, yeah, so in that internship that I had for my master's level work, I got hired at that agency. And then I started, it was actually working with adoptive families after adoption it was called post adoption support. And I love the job I love but my favorite part of the job was really working with the teenagers, I would be able to, it wasn't really

35:29part of the job description at the time but I, I, I made it part of my job where I would meet one on one and do some mentoring with the adoptive teens as part of just their case manager, but it wasn't therapy so it was allowed. And so I would do one on one meetings with the teens, and then I started doing support groups as part of the role. And then when I decided I wanted to switch occupations to really find a job that was more clinical so I could go towards my clinical license.

36:00I was like, well on the side I could still work with adopted families and so I decided to start and with having certain voices speak into me and be like you'd be really good at this you should, because it's not really I never thought I'd be an entrepreneur, let's just put it that way. So it was just very like okay the right voices speaking into me I can do this I have a passion for it. And it will challenge my own journey to it will continue to challenge me and so that's how I started core of adoption. I just got, I got my LLC and I started it last year in June. And so it's been. Yeah, it's only been one year of doing it but what it really is, is, I do two services one is support groups for teenagers who have been adopted and then the other is

36:47one on one coaching. And so, and then on the side I have employed with another job to do as a therapist. So I keep it I keep it very separate I have my therapist hat and then I have my coaching hat but I, I secretly like love the coaching aspect because with that I can share my own stuff too it's not as like rigid. That's really cool. Yeah, yeah. And he said that you do work with people online as well. And so, yes, yes definitely all the support groups are on the side.

37:18All the support groups are online. Very cool. Yeah, so we'll have all of your information in the show notes for anyone who's interested. Cool. Great. So awesome. All right, so what kind of support do you want to see for adoptees particularly teenagers in the future. I, I love things like this. Um, things, just to amplify voices more, and, and it's so funny because people really like to tell other people what the adoptee experience is like, but they're like, okay but what are you you're an adopted parent.

37:57Oh, you're just you're a caseworker and like you're all part of the puzzle of the whole journey for sure. But, but just having having the adoptee share what the experience is like for them is huge, it's huge for them, because they're being being able to feel heard and understood and listened to. And then it's huge for other people to either relate and it resonate with them or them be like, no, that's really not a part of my story but I can feel for you.

38:27It's really both pieces it's kind of it's huge so it might sound like a simple answer but it's, and it's starting to be done more, but just to continue like pushing that. Your story and not just share the service share the story their way that's a huge thing I like to do with core. It's not just your story how you were told to tell it by your parents, it's your story your way.

38:58It's not just like writing music about it or doing artwork through it, it's really telling your story your way. And then one other resource that I was thinking it would be really cool if more people could do stuff like coaching, like, like I'm doing and also not just coaching but mentoring I, I call I don't call what I do mentoring because I know I can't like stay long term with people for so long and have that like close close relationship with everyone, even if I wanted to.

39:28I think we could find another young adult adoptee for a teen, who's like in that stage of life, local to them, and really meet with them one on one and walk them through high school and college and like they're them getting married like all of that that would be ideal. So having more of those mentor roles, alongside with therapy, but really having those mentor roles where the person can like share their lived experience with one another.

39:58And, yeah, yeah, that's an amazing idea. I love that. Alright, so this next question is in there because my husband and I have been trying to find a therapist for our daughter who's adopted. And we found a therapist and he's great, but their first meeting together. He was asking her all these questions about adoption and my daughter is darling she's on the autism spectrum and she's, she will tell you what she thinks. And so he just kept saying, So how do you feel about not having your real parents in your life and my daughter was just so mad and she was

40:38telling him over and over like, I have my birth mom in my life, and I have my parents and she really didn't like how he was talking about it and was just getting so mad and she didn't know how to express it anyway it was hard. Yes. And of course I'm in the corner just like, I don't know what to say I don't want to be like that intrusive parents it's like not like my kid feel their feelings. So do you have any tips on how to find professional support like therapy or counseling or whatever for adoptees.

41:09Yeah, well, so it's funny because I wear the two hats of like doing coaching and doing like my own thing but then on the side having the job of being a clinical therapist and and I see how I'm different but yet still the same person in the two different roles. So I, I would encourage finding someone who is legitimately trauma informed, and I'm speaking against myself because I'm not officially like trauma informed where I'd like taking courses and whatnot so I'm kind of like saying don't come to me for therapy,

41:45but really like one who's like trauma like legitimately trauma informed and ideally if they if you need to do like attachment work with the parents having someone who's trained in attachment therapy, because you can't improve a parent child relationship unless the parents aren't involved in the therapy process. But if it is the child that just needs their own space apart from the parents, then really make sure it's with someone who likes working with that age group that they're at, whether it's teens and or

42:19whether it's children. But overall just finding someone that's trauma informed and attachment based. And it's a plus if they like teens if you're a teen and it's a plus if they have adoption as part of their story in some way, but it's hard to find that and then along with that, finding someone that you just jive with that you just like as a person. So it is really hard I feel like I didn't answer that question with much hope. But there are people, there are people out there and it, and I think.

42:51And it just takes time finding the right person. Yeah, yes but like asking good questions like what model do you use and here's just a tip like one model that it doesn't work for everyone but one model that worked for me as an adoptee and then I have seen work with other adoptees or people with trauma in their past would be the, it's called IFS. It's called internal family systems. And when my therapist in 2019, and I've been to like five therapists before that, but this therapist was the first one that was like,

43:24Oh, they're getting at the root of the problem. She used IFS with me internal family systems and what that was it's also sometimes called parts work. And it's kind of what I was saying before where you have to see the baby in you or the child in you apart from yourself and care for that because we all have different parts of ourselves, but finding a therapist that can help you say different language like when you're in a situation where you're anxious instead of saying, I'm anxious, or I'm stupid, you would say instead, a part of me feels anxious, or a part of me doesn't feel very smart right now, because it, it really like brings your mind back to the reality that

44:05you're anxious all the time that's not who you are, that's just a part of you right now in this situation. So that's the basis of IFS but then deeper work with it would be really exploring different parts of you that have been hurt that are protecting other parts and you need to like care for each one of them appropriately. And that changed my life. I mean it's really hard work it's deep work it's not for all like ages necessarily but it worked for me as an adoptee who've been through trauma.

44:35That's awesome. That's so great advice. Thank you. Sure. All right. So what do you wish the adoption community understood about challenges that adoptees face. I would say the, the identity piece, the feeling different and the identity piece the piece that I said I struggled with. Also just the, the, the grief and loss aspect of it. People see it as such this, this beautiful thing, but it really starts from a place of brokenness and working with a system that's a child welfare system that's kind of broken to help fix a broken

45:22situation. So it's just like brokenness on top of brokenness sometimes even if people are trying to do the best they can, and just really being honest that that's that that that's the beginning of the story, but that and I, and I don't think people can like that that'll confront you no matter what. But if you can welcome it first I think that's a good first step. Yeah. Yes.

45:54Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great. So would you say that's probably what you think the biggest challenges facing the adoption community as well. I think I would say so. I would the other, and then the other. I just thought of something else the other thing that that is a big challenge for the adoption community is people not viewing what they went through as trauma. I think, I think that's, that's huge but I would, I would like to argue that that those have been through adoption or some like broken attachment at like a very young age. Those people did not have what I call and what I've read as pre trauma concept.

46:37They don't know what life was supposed to be like before the truck before something traumatic happened to them. Whereas, in another situation and I hate to compare traumas I wouldn't recommend people to do that. But, but if someone gotten like an accident or something that's everyone be like oh that's definitely trauma, they need they need a that they might struggle to drive again for a bit or they, that's trauma they need to do some counseling for this season of their life. So people would see that as a trauma, but with that person who got in an accident. They know they will have to like, do some to do some self help and go to therapy and like, get back into driving but they do remember what life was supposed to be like before

47:18that trauma happened. And with situations like this kind of going back to infants, who have been adopted, even if they went home to the to the adopted parents, the day they were born in the hospital. They still went through a significant trauma, and even more so. It's a lasting trauma, now there's there's there's hope, because our brains can change and shift. But it's a lasting trauma, where they didn't have a pre trauma concept to know what life was supposed to be like, and a reference.

47:50So I think that's a big challenge, people and then people thinking. They're just victimizing themselves or something or their their pain and trauma isn't legit. Yeah, yeah, those are great thoughts. So do you have any thoughts on actions we could take to help or to address or solutions. Yeah. Kind of what I was saying before just the continuation of, of asking people asking people questions and like respectful ways being honest if you don't understand something, letting the adoptee be the expert of their own story.

48:32And then, and also just like understanding that every journey is different. So even if you ask the same question to one adopted teen or young adult or an adult. You can still ask that same question to someone else, because the answer might be totally different. Right and just knowing the stories are different and that the stories will their adoption stuff will confront them differently when they're going through different things in life.

49:02So you might be like we already heard your story Sarah and I'll be like, I know I've told it before but but it's different now because something happened like if I have a kid something already like told myself in my head, when I become a mom someday, my adoption is going to confront me in a whole new way, and just and understand that it's this lifelong thing, and that's okay. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, we've done. I don't know 57 episodes of the podcast so far, and asked many similar questions, and it's fascinating I've never done an interview that I'm like oh this feels really repetitive with a different no never.

49:39And I mean we do. But yeah, I mean we do to be fair we interview everyone across the triad, but still, it's yeah yeah. So that's a great example coming from your perspective who's like in this interview multiple people with like a simple questions and seeing that it's across the so different. Yeah, yeah. I love that. All right, so if you could change one thing, a perception, a tradition, whatever, and the world of adoption, what would it be.

50:16I think I mixed up my answers and I think it's what I said before it just the fact that it's a beautiful thing but it's sad too. Yeah, and it starts in a place of grief and loss. And when you've lost something, even if it's an idea or an expectation of what life was like, because loss doesn't be just from losing someone or an item. It could be a loss of a desire or an expectation.

50:47And then you can be grieved somehow, and then she like how can we do it healthily. So just the perception though that adoption is adoption is love adoption is beautiful. I mean, I love adoption, I'm not on the other side of it where I just like, yeah, I don't even want to get into that. I do, I do love adoption but there's definitely this. I like to think that I can balance both pretty well. Yes. Yeah, so important to acknowledge that I know when we adopted our third child. He came home from the hospital, and I think I was just more informed by then this probably happened with all my babies, but we brought him home and I just remember crying and watching him

51:29and I was just thinking, he seems sad and he's a baby, like brand new. Can't like tell you how he feels but it was heartbreaking you could just tell he really missed his first mom. And yeah, it's, it's real. I think that's really important. Yeah, that's really great you noticed that. I'm sure it was sad though. It took time but yeah, it was sad. And it still can be sad. I mean to see. Yeah, kids who you love and adore struggle and you can't always be the one to fill that void, but I think it's important to acknowledge that and accept that.

52:04Yeah, yeah. I think it's great like the work you're doing, I think it's really cool how like you can just like meet people on Instagram now and like have these opportunities to share and like hear one another out. Yeah, I just I appreciate what you and other people are doing in this work. Thank you so much. I really appreciate what you're doing. I'm so excited that we got to talk and learn from you. Thank you. Thank you.

52:46Thank you so much again to Sarah for being on this episode with us. Again, I just truly truly appreciate her and loved listening to her conversation. Yeah, she is just such a great person. You can just really feel how much she genuinely cares and wants to help adoptees and help make the world a better place, especially for these teen adoptees who she works with, which is just so amazing. I loved how she acknowledged that adoption is a lot of things. It's not just beautiful. It's not just trauma. It's such a mixed bag. There's really hard things about it and it can be a really challenging thing.

53:35And I think that focusing on the importance of getting help getting therapy and counseling and seeking that additional assistance working through feelings and emotions. I think that's such an important step to take for the whole adoption community, but especially as we're trying to help adoptees to navigate these feelings. Yeah, I think one thing that really stood out to me was when she was talking about teenagers and helping them kind of process through some of their feelings and that sometimes you have to isolate a specific feeling to like an age that you were or would have been when you

54:22were just a teenager, and then you kind of have to process it through a different lens. I really was just kind of fascinated by that and I'm interested in learning more about that but I felt like she opened my eyes to how we can help adoptees process through different aspects of trauma at different stages of their life. Yeah, so many valuable things I would love to just ask her more and more questions because I felt like I learned so much talking to her. Yeah, maybe we'll have her on the podcast again in the future.

54:55Thank you again Sarah so much for being on the episode and thank you all for listening to this episode. We do know that some people might want to follow Sarah or connect with her on social media. So we'll share with you right now some of the ways you can connect with her. Yes, you can go to her website it is core of adoption.net so C O R E core of adoption.net, or you can also follow her on Instagram at core of adoption. Awesome. Again, thank you Sarah for your willingness to share with us and the adoption community, and thanks to each of you for listening to this episode of the open adoption project.

55:53Thank you.

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