Steph | L'adoption ouverte c'est l'amour

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 56. We're the Nelsons, I'm Lanette, and today my husband Shaun will be sharing an interview with Steph. Steph is a French adoptive dad and in this episode he and Shaun talk about his experience adopting his daughter. He talks about some of the differences between adoption here in the United States versus in France, and he talks about really the importance of taking care of and loving first parents, which I love. So we'll get right to it. I hope you love this episode.

0:43All right, well we are now on the podcast with Steph. Steph, welcome to the podcast. Yes, thank you. Could you just take a moment to introduce yourself to our listeners? So yeah, basically I'm Steph. I'm from France, as you can hear, and I live right now in California in Napa. I moved from France to California five years ago with my wife, and we've been able to build our family through adoptions here in California. And I'm also a mathematician, I love music, I started my

1:17career as a cello teacher, and right now I'm a live coach. I'm coaching busy working dads and parents just to be able to be more present for their families. Awesome. Well, it's a pleasure to get to meet you. My undergrad was in music education, and I conduct community choir in our community, so I have a foot in the music world as well, I love it. All of our kids are taking lessons on piano or violin right now, and that's awesome.

1:47Yeah, but cello is the best instrument, right? I agree. My eight year old who's doing violin, I'm like, we got to get this kid on cello. Well, you mentioned that you've built your family through adoption. Can you tell us just a little bit about your experience with adoption and just share some of your story? Yeah, so everything started, I guess, in 2008, when I met my girlfriend, who she will become my wife, eventually, a couple of years later. So during the second

2:21date, we started to talk about, hey, what about building a family together at some point, you know, we were crazy at that time. And we started to very quickly to talk about adoption, building our family by adoption, basically. So we were in France, we were in college, and very young and just wanted to dream about how to build the perfect family for us. 10 years later, we've been able to go here to California. And we had, it was the perfect time for us to start building a family. And we started to look at how it looks like the adoption

2:56process here in California. And we're so surprised to find the open adoption process. We didn't have to be American citizens. What was just required is just, hey, can you pay taxes basically here in California, and that's it. And I mean, it was such a gift, such a yeah, to be able to be here in California and to start building our family by adoption. Yeah. Yeah. And the space specifically

3:28through open adoption, which is, yeah, maybe we'll talk a bit about that, but which is totally different from France. Yeah. Yeah, we will talk about that. So you decided that you wanted to build your family through adoption. And all you have to be able to do is pay taxes in California, and it works out. So tell us, so after you made that decision, what were some of the like, what was the timeline, maybe some of the feelings and experience that you had? So we so just imagine you, you are you live in France, you moved to the US 2017.

4:05And I needed you to find a job. My wife, she had a great job here in California. And we were thinking about building this this family. And at some point, I said, Okay, I said to my wife, I found this open adoption agency, I got a workshop meeting for us planned on Saturday, and we need to do to do it, we need to move because we can't just think about it. So I took this this workshop. And we went there. And the doors the door was closed. So my wife said, Oh, well, I guess it's

4:38not open. So I said, No, we need to find a way to get to that building and to find out. And it found it was not the main door, but you know, back door, whatever. So we've been able to go there and to it was the first step for us to be able to to meet the community and to make it more concrete, I would say. And starting from from there, everything was super clean, super organized within the agency, they took care of all of the questions. And the main point was we've been able to

5:11meet those families, etc, to create connections and to have all the answers. Answer basically, other question answers, basically. So yeah, that's it. So yeah, the domain point was just to take this first appointment. And yeah, just to take the first step, the baby step. So when you went that first time, had you already studied and learned a little bit about open adoption? Or were you introduced to open adoption when you went to that workshop?

5:42So no, we, we we did our due diligence, I would say. So we knew if we were able to adopt a child and we knew a lot of a lot of things through the website. But we didn't have this, we had a lot of fears, a lot of doubts. And without human connection, it's very hard to make it concrete or actionable. So we were stuck in this kind of fear mode, I would say. And but when you meet the agency and

6:15other families and birth mums as well testimonials from birth mums, I think it was the turning point for us to say, Okay, let's do it. And just to come into to create this family by adoption. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. So you went through that process, you got approved through the adoption agency. And then what what? How long was it before you were matched with expectant mother? Yeah, it took us roughly two and a five year to two and a half years to be to be

6:47matched. So from beginning of 2018 to April 2020. Okay, yeah. So yeah, this is weird, because you there is a first rush to prepare everything during six months, you you connect to prepare, you know, the other papers, etc. And after that, for two years, you don't hear anything, right? So it's just okay. So it's okay. What's going on now? But yeah, yeah, it's a process.

7:21So how did you find out that you had been selected? Did the agency let you know that somebody was considering you or did an expectant mother reach out to you directly? Or how would how did that process work for your situation? Yeah. Yeah, great question. So basically, we were in close contact with the agency and we received a text saying, Hey, you have you've been matched, would you be available in one hour to set up a call with the birth mom? And we were okay, let's do it. So it was very, very, very short in time. So we received one

7:55text and then when one hour later, we were, you know, in a conversation with the birth mom. And oh my god, it was very, very intense emotionally. She was she was so mature. And we were not prepared because for us, we just learned that we've been matched for, you know, one hour. But for her, she she's been through our profile. And she thought about it for roughly two months. So she was very, very prepared in her head and our heads. It was like very, very

8:27intense, very, very quick. Yeah, we've been matching. I can't I can't, I don't have words to describe this first conversation. But we were so touched by her maturity, the way that she she thought about life and our family. And we realized that me and my wife, we we were a complete reflection of her values and her dreams, etc. It was, yeah, very intense. Yeah,

9:01yeah, I think that's one aspect that we haven't really talked a lot about on the podcast. Sometimes expectant mothers because of a profile that we have or social media that people can look at often know a lot about the couple that they're considering. And we know very little or nothing at all during that first meeting. And that can be quite intense. I think you shared that really well. Yeah. And she said right, right off the bat. Yeah, so are you ready to be the parents of your daughter? And we were just like, you know, after five minutes

9:34of conversation, we were like, Okay, so this is a girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a girl. We were just, okay. Is it for real? And I mean, yeah, this is the kind of thing that you need to expect after just five minutes of conversation to be completely overwhelmed, emotionally, and just to learn that you will have a daughter. Yeah, that was that was very, oh, yeah, something very, very, very powerful. It's in her mind. It was so clear that she wants us as a full parents. Yeah,

10:08for for her daughter, basically. Yeah. Yeah. You can't describe that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there are very little words that you could use to express the feelings of that moment, where you realize that somebody else is choosing you to be the parent of their child. A lot of emotions. Wow. So you made that initial connection from then. What was the timeline like until your daughter

10:40was born? So it was April beginning of April and the daughter, my daughter was born in beginning of June. So three months, roughly. And we've been able to meet the birth mom every two weeks, I would say. So we were driving, she's living in South California, and we live in North California. So we were driving, you know, a couple of times per month, and to be there for the hospital for the exams,

11:11etc. And yeah, just to spend time with her and, yeah, to get to know her. And after that, yeah, we received a call, hey, I have to go to the hospital. Yeah, I think the baby is on its way. So it's, it has been very, yeah, sudden, I would say. So we took the car and drove to South California just to be at the hospital. And yeah, and I was born the day after that. So yeah.

11:45We have a very similar timeline with our youngest child. So we were matched with his birth parents in March of 2020. And he was born in June of 2020. So I had a question around that. So this was all happening during the pandemic. What what, what restrictions were in place? Or how did the pandemic maybe influence or impact any of the relationship that you had or, or did it? So, yeah, so basically, just before the baby was delivered, I don't know. Yeah.

12:24So before that, the three months that we were creating connection with the birth mom, it was there was no impact. I mean, we were able to see her and etc. And at the hospital, it has been told that during the delivery, I couldn't be there. So just one person could be there to support the birth mom during the delivery. So the birth mom chose my wife as someone to support her basically. And

12:55so that's what the main restriction so I couldn't be there for for the delivery. And the hospital said I had to wait until three days, three days later, to see the baby. So I couldn't go to the hospital at all. It turns out, it turned out that I've been able to go to the hospital just after the delivery, because there is really some restrictions. So but initially, the plan was for me to wait at the hotel for three days and I couldn't do anything. But yeah, I've been able to

13:29go to the hospital eight hours later after the delivery. That's great. That was a great surprise. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. Well, that's great. Well, we're gonna we have a lot of questions for you about a lot of different things. So we'll just jump in. I you mentioned, obviously, you're from France. And did you and your wife consider adoption before you moved to the United States? So yeah, we started to look at it. But it was not very clear in our mind that

14:05what that was the good time. So in 2015 16, we were talking about building a family by adoption. And in France, it's very, very complicated. You don't have the open adoption process. Just like in the US. So yeah, we're considering it. But there is a lot of brokers, I would say. It was not straightforward. And maybe we were really at that time as well. Yeah. We have we have quite a few listeners in Europe, and many listeners

14:39here in the United States. Could you help maybe from what you know, at least maybe compare and contrast what adoption looks like in in France versus what it looks like here, or at least in California? Yeah, so yeah, this is such an interesting topic. In France, basically, the main question is, do you break the origin, original affiliation with the birth, the birth parents, and everything is done just to keep the biological link, whatever happens, okay. So there is kind of two types of adoptions in

15:14France. One is maybe your brother and his partner just died, and you want to take care of your nieces, basically. So there is this kind of adoption, where you keep the family within the family. So it's very straightforward. And then there is another adoption, which is close adoption, where if you are a birth mom, and you deliver and you need to wait two months to, to revoke all your rights, and the baby is put under the control of an agency, and then the agency do the match with the parents. So basically, the difference is there is

15:48no open adoption in France. And it is very, the match and all the system is, is is done by the French government, basically. So you lose, yeah, compared to the US, you lose this ability for the birth mom to really choose the family or to address her, you know, values, etc. So there is pros and cons. I'm sure that

16:18there is a lot of reasons why open adoption is not developed in France. But from my perspective, it has been such an amazing experience to be able to build a family through open adoption. I, yeah, yeah, I don't know why. But it sounds at least to me, it sounds a little bit kind of like the foster care system in the United States, where if the state takes custody of a child, they

16:49they have this thought of biology is best, they want to try to keep the child within the family when possible. And then if not here in the US, then they can place a baby in a different home until the situation is better, or an adoption can take place. And that could open to an open adoption. But it sounds like it's pretty cut and dry in France that either it's a closed adoption, two months after babies born, relinquishment can happen. And then there's no ties or connection.

17:20Is that sound about right? Yeah, this is exactly that. Yeah. And yeah, you lose you lose the affiliation, you lose the you can't retrieve any information from the birth mom, which is you know, it can be painful in the way that I'm not Yeah, I'm not an adoptee. So yeah, yeah. Anyway. So you mentioned that you made this initial connection with your, your daughter's birth mother, you've kind of developed this relationship over time.

17:53How would you explain that relationship to somebody who knows nothing about adoption? Yeah. So the way I see it, so I'm a creative mind. So I will use one one thing that I have in my mind right now is like an impressionist painting like Monet, when you look at a painting like that, you have the intensity, you have the emotion, but you need to to put some colors into the painting to get the full picture. So there's a little bit of blue, a little bit of dark, whatever. So the

18:27intensity is there, the connection. When you connect with the birth mom, after 10 seconds, you are connected. I mean, this is this is so intense. And after that, through time, you know, you paint the picture, the full picture, and you bring colors to it. And you ask questions and, and very carefully with a lot of caring and structure and support because we've been we've been helped with the social services as well, you know, just to create also the just at the beginning to

18:58be sure to be comfortable and to have the right structure to ask the right questions, etc. Yeah. But so this is the way I see the birth mom will choose you. And she's doing all the hard work, you know, in terms of connecting with you, choosing you, creating this connection, wanting to have her child being raised in a loving

19:30and caring family, she's doing all the heavy lift. So you don't have to, to be scared or whatever you will meet someone extraordinary with a lot of strengths that will Yeah, that will teach you a lesson. Yeah, this is this is how we describe it. What are some of the things that you and your wife have done to strengthen your relationship or make that relationship more meaningful? You're coming up on two

20:00years of having this child that entered your family and she entered your family at the same time, right? Or I guess a little even before, what what type of things do you do on a normal basis to foster that connection? So there is first from day one from the first conversation, everything has been created from the intensity of love and what we wanted to share in common for for Emma for for my daughter. Okay, so that was the first initial moment. The

20:32intensity of the emotion, I think it's a good anchor anchor for the relationship. And after that, we've been able to, to share pictures with the birth mom, basically. So this is something that she so we asked, Hey, what would you love us to do just to to keep the connection. And we created an agreement with her. And everything was very detailed, very simple, but very detailed. And we stick to it basically, so sending pictures, and we are able to see the birth mom,

21:05twice a year. And it's always a good time, you know, to connect with with the birth mom and to spend time with her and, yeah, just to enjoy being together. Yeah, I mean, this is, this is so powerful. Yeah. Yeah. How frequently would you say that you send pictures or that you're texting or connecting with each other at this point? Yeah, so every time that something happens, when we go to the park, or just

21:37due to go to some new attractions, we send pictures, I would say, we send five, six pictures per month, every two weeks. Yeah, and that's it. And sometimes we just text and say, we put a comment on the picture and she will reply maybe two weeks or three weeks later. So we send pictures every two weeks. Sure. So in our conversations, before we connected on the podcast, you mentioned that it was really important for you to give support to your daughter's birth

22:12mother from the very beginning and that you decided to hire a doula to work with her. Can you tell us maybe how you came to that decision and then how that benefited her? Yeah, so basically the adoption agency told us, hey, that would be great given her circumstances that maybe you can think about to hire a doula basically for her. So my wife took the initiative to hire a doula and to do the process.

22:48I didn't notice very well that it was important, but my wife said, okay, we need to do that just to support her. It was so great to be able to have a doula because we were not very... It was not easy for us just to... We are living eight hours away, right? So it's not easy for us to provide support for the birth mom, but we wanted her to know what she had to expect at the hospital basically

23:24or just to know the basics and to have her presence, to have someone she can talk to frequently. So we had a contract with a doula saying, hey, you have unlimited budget just to take care of the birth mom and if she reached out to you and saying, hey, I need to talk, just go. I mean, go figure it out. That was... Yeah. Also during the pandemic, she was very, very freaked out about her health basically and we didn't know what COVID was at that time. So yeah, we wanted to

24:01have someone who was able to communicate the right level of information as well. That's great. Yeah. So yeah, that's the process. Yeah. I mean, we definitely are huge advocates of providing support to expectant parents and I think that is one way that we could do that, right? You're eight hours away, you can lend, you can connect, you can talk, but being together physically and having... Well, being together physically is probably a

24:35challenge being that far apart, but having someone there that knows what she's going through to some extent and can provide additional support. That was really, really sweet of you guys to provide. That's great. Yeah. And also it has been... So it was a chance for my wife, the doula and the birth mom to spend time together. So they spent one afternoon together just to do some exercises and I don't know, they never told me what they've done, but I

25:08think it was a great preparation for the delivery. And then when the baby was born, there were also the doula present with my wife during the delivery and I think it was great for the birth mom to have these kind of figures, stable figures. Yeah. So yeah, I think it was also emotionally, psychologically, it was great to have the doula as well. That's awesome. So many of the people that listen to this podcast are hoping

25:41to adopt someday. What advice would you give to them as they start this process, maybe particularly around building relationships with expectant parents? So sometimes you don't have the time to create a relationship. You learn that the baby is born and you have to go to the hospital and we have one family, it has been like that. So they knew there were parents two hours before the baby

26:12was born. So sometimes you don't have time to create the relationship and sometimes the birth mom doesn't want that as well to create a relationship. So yeah, but if you have the opportunity, just go with the flow and talk about basic stuff, trying to create more agreements from that perspective and from a man's perspective, etc. I was a little bit scared about talking, you know, asking private questions or to the birth mom, but she said, yeah, you can

26:47ask any questions and I will answer any questions and blah, blah, blah. So my advice with relationship is always, yeah, be connected to your heart and just ask questions and see where it goes. If you don't know, just ask the social services or if you have a structure, just ask and you can't get it wrong from my perspective. As far as you, you so we had, okay, yeah, maybe one thing we had this mindset of we are here to take care of the birth mom first and even at the

27:23hospital, we are here to take care of the baby as if we are just babysitting, right? We are just here to provide care and infrastructure to the birth mom and this child. And after that, the birth mom will decide whether or not we will become parents, right? So our only job is just to be sure that we are providing support and care and structure. And that's it. So yeah, it's one step at a time, I would say.

27:54Yeah. Yeah, I like a lot of things that you said. So the more communication that we can have, and the more open and honest we are, the better it's going to be help them get to know the real us, right? We all have flaws, we all have things that aren't perfect. And we can't hide those. Obviously, we don't have to go and just tell everybody all the bad things about us, right? But just being genuine being ourselves and, and asking lots of questions to get to know each

28:27other. I think that's a really, really good recommendation. And then I also really liked what you just said, where going to the hospital, you have to have the mindset of maybe this will be my child and maybe not the the rights of this expectant mother are completely hers to make the decision. And after that sweet baby is born, perhaps she changes her mind. And we have to be as hard as that is, we have to be okay with that and support the decision that she makes. Yeah.

29:03And I think it will speak maybe you had this experience as well. But this for us for our family, this is why we wanted to create our family through adoption is to be able to be present for, yeah, for a baby for someone else. And with open adoption, we are able to be present not only for a child, but also for the birth mom, which is, yeah, which is awesome. I mean, and we are coming from

29:35that place. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, of course, every relationship is going to look a little bit different. I know we share our story and all of our children's birth parents live relatively close to us actually one just moved across the country, but we still stay pretty connected. And we have them over for birthday parties. And it's just part of our family culture, but it looks a little bit different for everyone. And you kind of have to find the right balance for you and your family

30:05and for them as well. Because life, life continues for everybody after this, this baby joins all of our family. So I like that thought to just kind of go with the flow and realize that it's not going to look exactly like somebody else's experience. It's been two years. What do you wish you had known in the beginning that you know now?

30:35I think I was so scared. As I said at the beginning, that careful thinking is, is often, yeah, in in the way. I think, rely to connect to your heart and rely on your emotions and your ability to create connections with other human beings. You just need that. You just need this little amount of love of I care about a human

31:10being. I care about myself. If you are able to care about yourself, well, that's it. I mean, I was so I'm an engineer. I'm a mathematician. I love making a lot of abstract concepts and whatever in my mind. But you don't need that. You just need to connect to your heart and why you are doing it. And yeah, go with the flow and take one step at a time. And when when in doubt, just be in

31:44conversation with your partner. If you have a partner, if you are doing it that alone, reach out to the agency or if you are doing that completely alone with a lawyer, reach out to anyone else that can you know, you can share your thoughts and you scare your fears. It's totally normal to do you have fears. But connecting with other stories, other parents. That's super important listening to your podcast. I mean, yeah, that's a great advice. To listen to your podcast. Yeah.

32:20Right. Don't let the fears don't let the fear be in the way of what you want for your family and how you want you to build your family. Yeah. I love that thought. I'm trying to think back to some of the feelings that we had when we were starting this for the first time. And there was a lot of fear. Not knowing what that relationship would look like not knowing really what anything would have really like how it would really happen. But just trusting in the process. Making

32:54sure to connect with each other as a couple or with family members or friends that you could kind of talk with and express your emotions. And eventually things will all work out. And I love your advice to just focus on being able to connect with people and build relationships. And so maybe maybe the advice could be to some people who are listening that are considering adoption to make sure that you can connect with strangers and individuals in meaningful

33:26ways that that you can show interest and sincerity so that when you do connect with the right person and maybe you have two months to prepare or maybe you have two hours to prepare that whatever that timeline looks like we're able to connect in good important meaningful ways. Yeah. And even if you are scared, just connect. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah. I think being in the flow in

33:56conversations, being in conversations, I think it's the key, basically. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, and in talking to some of our children's birth parents, they were scared too to meet us. And I remember once saying, I didn't know if you guys would like me. And immediately we were family. And immediately we were friends. And I think we both sides have some of those feelings. But don't be

34:29afraid just even if you are make the connection, it's going to be okay. Yeah. So pause the listening, go find a workshop right now, an event you can you can attend to. And yeah, just book something in your calendar if you are thinking about adoption. And do it right now. Yeah, no, that's super wise. So I keep thinking I keep thinking about what the culture of adoption is in different

35:01places in different countries. I know even in the US, there are kind of some different opinions and different feel about what adoption is. How would you say the the community's perception of adoption is different in France and here? I know we talked about some of the logistics, but what about the community feel? Yeah, so I have my own perspective, right? I don't know what is the the

35:35French perception. I don't have a lot of connection with the I would say the the adoption community in France. Okay, so I can just talk about my experience with my family and friends, etc. But they were super receptive. So that there was some fear as well from my family. Hey, what are you doing? You won't know that the birth mom and she will part of your family. And if what if what if what if

36:07what if what if she's a bad person? And what if blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, she will be in your family and there is nothing that you can do. So yeah, you are already part of my family. Hey sister, you already part of my family. Anyway, I suggest just just just a joke for my sister. But yeah, it's that there was this is protection for the feeling of protection from my family for part of my family. Hey, I don't I want you to be really, really sure that you will have to

36:39deal with a birth mom, you don't have to deal with the birth the birth mom, not at all. So after you know, a few months when we we had our daughter, all the bad feelings or thoughts were gone forever. So this is not the point that don't let the judgment or thoughts from your family or whatever pollute your relationship or your desire or your dream regarding the perception. I can't think of.

37:16Yeah, I just wondered. And I think I think the best way that you described it was talking about friends and family, because that's how that's like your perception your real life experience. I just wondered if some of the perceptions might be different. But the thing that you explained with your experience with your family is the same exact experience I had with my family with the same doubts and concerns and what if and what if it seemed very similar? Yeah. And after that, there is you know, I grew up in very religious

37:49community. So there is more concerned about, you know, the religious side. But this is not a cultural perspective. This is more about how you how you've been raised, etc, etc. So I think adoption overall, I would say I would tend to say it's more about how you've been raised and what is your your perception of what family is and how you build a family. Yeah, I think this is the main driver.

38:22And I think that's one beautiful thing about open adoption to where expected parents get to pick the family that they place with. And so they find values and similarities that align. And most of the time, they're going to pick someone similar to them, as far as values or beliefs or things that they, they want their child to have. And so there are some commonalities or things

38:52that can create connection right off the bat, because because of that open adoption option for the expectorants to pick or choose the family that they're placing with. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. And yeah, this is this is the main point of this is why you want to have an open adoption, right? It's just to be able to connect from someone who shared the so we chose you basically. And so that's why I think that's the main point. Yeah. Yeah, it's very powerful. And

39:28there's nothing else like it, where you meet someone for a few minutes and then decide you're going to be part of each other's lives forever. It's compared it to going on a first date and proposing at the end of the date. Yeah, if you love if you love that kind of risk. I can't think of any other benefits. But Steph, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges facing the adoption community or at least the community that you're part of?

40:01So, yeah, I really right, right now, so I don't want to be too political here, but there is this kind of the ripple effect of the abortion ban that is happening in the US. So from a French perspective, I don't understand what is going on with this country with the abortion rights, etc. So, okay, I think it's a I think there will have a ripple effect about women not being able to have access to to to care or to be. Yeah, this is, I don't this is just a

40:35feeling. I don't know how to explain it. I don't know. I don't know if it's too good. So, no, I think you're right that the overturn of Roe vs. Wade has a lot of effects, not specifically on like, oh, there's going to be a lot more adoptions. But maybe the feel toward adoption may change like, well, this is my only option now. So that's what I'm going to do. Where in the past, there's

41:07been a little bit more choice involved. There are definitely going to be ripple effects. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah, that's hard. It's really hard. Yeah. And there's a point on the I am thinking about something around what do you do when you are waiting for to be matched basically. So we had two years before being matched. And I think there's something that you can do as well is we should have done more right now. So what I'm trying to say is instead of just

41:44waiting for your baby or just to be matched, maybe you can participate to other programs like foster programs or this kind of stuff. This is something that we're considering with my wife just to become to become a foster family. So maybe at that time, we're not ready as well. But there is also other ways for us to take care of babies or child that need help, basically. Yeah.

42:14Yeah. So and from the we've done several interviews with foster parents. And from what I've learned from them, I think that fostering can really help people prepare to have good relationships with people that they maybe not would maybe would not naturally have a relationship with. But you learn to love and have compassion for and connect with people in really, really meaningful ways and support people going through really difficult things. So I really

42:46like that thought that that can really beneficial. I'm not sure we were ready to become to be a foster family in 2018. Yeah. I think now we with the experience of having a baby and being more mature, I would say, I think it might be the right time. But yeah, again, a lot of fears and a lot of doubts regarding this being a becoming a foster family. Right. But it has to feel

43:22right in your heart. Absolutely. Yeah, this is what I wanted to say. Yeah, that's great. What do you think that the adoption community, those hoping to adopt or those that have adopted can do to better support birth parents or birth families? So for us, it has been connecting with the birth family with the doula before the pregnancy, before the delivery, etc. I think it's great. But I think the doula, the doula network is growing, expanding as well in

43:55California. And I think it's a good way to support the birth mom. How do you think we can better support our children or those that have been adopted? Yeah, this is a question that I had in my mind as well. We were talking a lot about adoption at home with through books and stories. And we have this this relationship with the birth mom. And so our daughter, she's seen a lot of photos she knows we were talking all the time about this story, her story.

44:32I think more generally, do what you can to connect with the local families. We are connected here in Napa with families that have been through adoption as well. Just connect with families. Just to create the link with other child that has been adopted as well. I think this is a very simple way just just to create one or two, just meet one or two families and that's it. I think that that would be my advice. And nothing fancy. But yeah.

45:06But yeah. Yeah. I mean, at this point, too, you have a child, a two year old, I think that the way you're approaching it, like, talking about it regularly in our homes, helping them understand that that it's their reality and helping them eventually be okay with whatever emotions they have around being adopted. And then making sure that they're part of a community where they're connecting with other adoptees. And understand that for a lot of other people, that's their normal. That's the way their family was created. And it's happening

45:39for a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Yeah. I love what you say. Yeah. I love it. Anything else that you want to talk about knowing our audience? Again, we have expectant parents, we have birth parents, we have hopeful adoptive parents, we have adoptive parents, adoptees, everybody listening, right? What else might you share? Or what else is kind of the message that you would share?

46:09So, yeah, I'm also working with busy working dads and parents, etc. And I just had the chance to be raised in a very great family. I had a lot of siblings and I had a very present dad and present mom, etc. A strong community as well. And through adoption, I think we really know what it's like to build our

46:42family through choice and to nurture relationships and to create connection, etc. I think it's a chance. It's a gift that we have. What does it mean to build your family? What's your perception about building a family? How do you want to talk about it? And what do you want to do every day for your family? This is a kind of question that I have in my mind all the time. And I'm living from those questions. When you listen to that podcast, you think about someone, maybe

47:17your brother, it might be someone in your family. You want just to share a nice word, just write a letter or just send a text just to connect and to say, I love you. My son, silly, but this is the only thought that I have. I don't think it's silly at all. I think that building relationships in meaningful, natural ways is what I think for me personally, one of my biggest reasons and purposes here in this life, right? To connect with others and lift people and

47:50love people. And I really like what you said, like adoption is really intentionally building a family and it doesn't just happen by chance. Usually, it takes work and preparation and wherever we are in the process to be able to kind of just stop and think like, what am I doing to nurture and build this family? And what maybe can I do right now to make it even better? I think those are great things to consider. Yeah. Man. Well, Steph, thank you so much. Any

48:27last thoughts before we finish up? I think we did a pretty good job, right? Yeah, I think so. Well, thank you so much for being willing to be on the podcast. We really, really appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you very much.

48:59Wow. Well, thank you so much, Steph, for being on the podcast. We really appreciate it. I really loved in this episode how Steph talked about how he and his wife found ways to support their daughter's first mom, how they decided for their situation, they'd get her a doula as a support, which is something I had never heard before, right? But I thought that was really cool. Just trying to think what's going to help in your situation, right? What's

49:29going to help the person that you want to be helping to create these relationships? And I think that's so important when you're focused on serving the person that you love and care about, it's going to strengthen that relationship ultimately anyway. And I just thought that was great wisdom. One thing that he said that really stood out to me was just having a community among adoption or adoptees so that children can have friends or relate with some of their peers. It's also really nice as adoptive parents to have

50:04that type of support group as well. And ultimately doing all of that to support the adoptee as they're growing up. I really liked that. Yeah. And I also really liked how he talked about the importance of just connecting with people. That's kind of been a theme for this season of the podcast, which I love. We've talked about the importance of making connections and strengthening those connections with all of our episodes so far. Yeah, I really like he's like, you know what, just call a family member and

50:36connect with them or reconnect with them and work on building your relationships because ultimately, and his words have split matters most. I agree. I think that's really wise. Awesome. Well, again, we're so grateful for Steph and for his willingness to share with us. Yeah, we're going to be back in two weeks with another episode. And I'm very excited about it. I'm always excited about our episodes. We just really appreciate the people who help us out and interview with us. We'll be talking with Sarah. She is a Chinese born adoptee who was raised in the United States.

51:07And she is amazing and works with adopted teenagers and helps them work through different feelings. And she's just so fantastic. So really excited to share some of her thoughts, especially on working with teen adoptees. We hope that you enjoyed this episode of the Open Adoption Project.

51:51Thank you.

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