Season 2 Wrap-up

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun. In this episode, we are going to wrap up season two. We are so happy that we've been able to share all of these episodes so far. We're on our 53rd episode of the podcast and it's been such a great experience for us to listen and to learn and to really just grow what we know about adoption as we hear other people's experiences. Yeah, as we got started, our hope was initially to probably educate more adoptive parents or hoping to adopt parents.

0:37But I feel like it's turned into so much more than that. And that's been so much fun. Yeah, trying to listen and grow the community and hopefully engage more dialogue through all members of the adoption triad. Yeah, so over the last just over a year, we have now had almost just under 20,000 downloads, which is a lot more, I think, than probably both of us thought this would ever reach, which is really cool. Yeah, it's been really fun.

1:07And we are able to see roughly where people are in the United States or in the world that are listening to the podcast. And we have a lot of people here in the U.S. spread out really all over the place. But I think initially we expected it to be all people from where we grew up or where we live now, just kind of grouped in those areas and those regions that maybe have some personal connections. Yeah, friends of friends. Right. But we have people listening regularly in the UK, in Germany, France, Brazil, Malaysia, Taiwan, South Africa,

1:42and a lot of other really just random places for us, at least. Which is so exciting. We really appreciate you being here. And we just love that we've been able to connect with people from all over the United States and all over the world. And on that note, if you are from a different country outside of the United States, we would love to highlight a few international stories that kind of show culture and what adoption looks like in other countries. So, yes. So if you're connected to adoption in a different country and you'd be willing to share your adoption story,

2:17then email us at openadoptionproject.gmail.com. And we would love to talk to you more about that. So there's a couple of ways to follow us. We are available on Instagram at Open Adoption Project. In addition to Instagram, you can check us out on our website at openadoptionproject.org. And on this website, you can see our weekly blog that we put out. We put out a little bit of information, maybe a few more pictures for each of the episodes that we do. In addition to that, you can follow us on social media and listen to the podcast on whatever platform you want to.

2:54So we're going to be taking a little break after this week's episode, and we will be back with season three of the podcast on July 11th. Yes, Lanette is winding up a term of classes for her master's degree in the months of May and June. And we'll have July and August back with no school for Lanette for the kids. And the choir that I conduct won't be happening either. So we'll have a little bit more time to bring it back up. And theory, right? In theory.

3:25We love doing the podcast, so we make time for it and we enjoy it. So we'll be back July 11th. You can watch out for that. And we have some exciting plans for season three that we'll talk about more at the end of this episode. So in today's episode, we want to recap season two. It's been really fun and really all about interviewing people. And we've had some really, really amazing people share their stories and experiences with us. So we thought it would be a good idea to share 10 takeaways that we've learned us personally that are how our knowledge has been deepened as we've interacted with these really amazing guests.

4:03Yeah, it's been such a privilege to meet all of these different people. Most of them people who we don't know and don't didn't have connections to really just finding people in the adoption community all around the United States and connecting with them has been so neat. And so 10 takeaways that we have found from this season, we're going to start with number one. And that one is something inspired by Molly's episode. We loved talking to Molly. She is an adoptee from Columbia and she says something that really stuck with me.

4:37She said that we need to listen to adoptees with curiosity and compassion. Yeah, for me, one thing that was highlighted in that episode specifically and that I've seen as we've interviewed several adoptees, even children, is that depending on different stages of their life, the way they view their story, the way they reflect on their own experiences may change. So Molly, for instance, shared that as she was growing up, even in her younger college years, that really everything about adoption was seen through rose colored lenses and different experiences, time, education changed that for her,

5:19where she kind of had this change where she started looking a little bit more critically and a little bit more introspectively and deeper into her experiences than she had once before. And so I think for me, it highlights that we need to make sure that we have constant communication, just talking about how their experience and how they feel. It's going to change over time and we can make that part of our normal conversation so that when feelings change or when a perspective changes or when questions arise, that it's not something taboo that we don't talk about, right?

5:57That it's just a constant discussion. Yeah, I love that idea of making this a more natural conversation. It makes me think of an experience we had with our son recently. We went down and visited with his birth mom and had dinner with her and we had a great time. And at the end of that visit, he just hugged her for such a long time, probably a full minute, maybe more, where he was just hugging her. And while he was hugging her, he looked up at me, like from under her arm, and I smiled at him and just kind of waved him to do his thing and not worry about me.

6:33And that night, I didn't think anything of it, but that night he was saying his prayer before bed and it was really sweet. He said to God, he said, thank you for sharing and that my family shares me and that they all love me and let each other love me. And that wasn't the exact wording, but that's what he said. And it was just so tender and sweet to realize that he recognized that we want him to have that relationship. We want him to have that love and that he felt that confidence that we can share.

7:08That us loving him doesn't take away from his birth mom loving him and vice versa and that there's room for all of us. Perfect. So we need to listen to adoptees and do so with curiosity and compassion. So there's our takeaway number one takeaway number two is kind of about parenting after placement. So finding support for those who have placed and encouraging and supporting them through that. So this came up a few times in season two.

7:39A couple of people that we spoke with shared about their experience parenting or being pregnant for the second time after they've placed or third time after they've placed. And I don't think I've had it. I don't think I personally have put much thought into that. I don't know how much the adoption community talks about how we can support parents who have already placed a child as the parent after that. Because it is a traumatic thing. Gina and Shayla both talked about that.

8:10They talked about the PTSD they experienced in that trauma of being pregnant after placing their first baby for adoption. Each of them individually and how they each had fears of that baby being taken away or getting sick or anything they did. They were like really harsh and critical of themselves thinking, oh, I'm not a perfect parent. And it was just really hard to hear and think about these challenges that they faced and wondering what the adoption community could do better to provide support, counseling, whatever it might be to help them cope with this loss in a way that can help them bond with their other children too.

8:57Yeah, and it makes me think of part of our conversation with Michelle as well. She mentioned that when she was pregnant with the first child that she parented, her second pregnancy, that everyone was celebrating this pregnancy. And during her first pregnancy, she said it was very, very different. And she said, you know what, like, this is a life. This is a child and we should celebrate that child. Yeah, she said both of her kids deserve to be celebrated like any baby or new life deserves that.

9:30And I think maybe it's a difficult conversation to have or to be joyful for someone who's planning on placing their baby, but showing them that you're there, showing them your support and your love and your care. And I think doing that goes a really long way. Yeah. And I mean, obviously, that's a hard thing because if someone's planning on placing their baby for adoption, then that's a hard thing. Right. And that's something you want to be mourning with them too, because it's so challenging.

10:01But recognizing that tightrope of this is still a human and a life that we should be celebrating and what a miracle it is, regardless of what decision that mother makes. Yeah. So in the adoption community, if we're connected with birth parents who potentially are having more children, this needs to be something that we're thinking about. How we can support them, how we can help them and maybe even encourage them to seek professional help.

10:31Absolutely. Professional help is so important. I feel like that's been another constant refrain on the podcast, the importance of counseling. Great. All right. So number three on our list is the importance of keeping promises. And this is especially a call to action for hopeful adoptive parents and adoptive parents. Yeah, we have talked about this before on the podcast, so it's not anything earth shattering or groundbreaking, right? But I think again and again, as we heard different people's stories, this was highlighted.

11:02Sarah, as she shared her story with us, talked about how the adoptive parents promised that they would never get divorced. Yeah, she said that was one of the reasons she chose the family she chose, because they literally said divorce is not an option for us. And she talked about the heartache that she felt when she found out that they were getting a divorce. And I mean, obviously, no family wants to plan on divorce or like we all want to say, oh, of course, would never get to that point.

11:33But is that something you can really promise? That's really hard, right? Yeah. And so just making sure that as we communicate in in this kind of matching time of of a birth parent or an expectant parent speaking with hopeful adoptive parents, making sure that we're very transparent, but also really honest with ourselves, like don't over promise so that things work in your favor. And don't say that you're going to do something unless you can really commit to it.

12:07And that also makes me think of Joanna and Matt's episode. I loved how they talked about how they built these relationships with their kids, birth parents before and after placement and how they really tried to build these relationships on trust. And I remember they said they kept telling one of their kids birth moms before she delivered their baby. She they were always saying, hey, you don't have to do this if you change your mind, it's OK. We still love you.

12:37We're still here for you. And just almost trying to talk her out of it, it sounded like, right, where they were just really trying to make sure she knew that they supported her no matter what. And I feel like that's a good rule of thumb, trying to make sure that you have this relationship where you're open. Everything's transparent and you feel good about things. It made me think of Shayla when she was talking about their experience where they had picked a couple, but it just didn't feel right.

13:16And for whatever reason that may be. And on the adoptive parents side, like, oh, man, you get picked. You're you're planning on adopting a baby and then expect a parent's change of mind. That's a really hard thing, really difficult emotions. But. Birth parents, expected parents need to do what they feel is best, and we have to respect that in the community that. Yeah, it's their decision to make. We need to support and respect that. Yep, it's not our call. So key promises don't over promise and under deliver.

13:50Yeah. OK, well, our fourth takeaway from this season and again, we've talked about this in the previous season as well, but it's just the topic of race and adoption. And I think into that, we'll consider a couple of different things, culture, language and having racial mirrors. Yeah, this was a topic that we talked about a lot this season. We heard Rebecca talk about how her decision to place her child for adoption was largely because of racist feelings of her loved ones at home

14:27and how she wanted to protect that child, her child from these racist people in her family. Yeah, so heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. Yeah, I can't put that into any other words. Yeah, and we also heard Kim talk about some of the challenges as a parent with her children who were adopted internationally at older ages and the challenges of racism and assimilating into the neighborhood that they live in.

15:00And schools. And schools, yeah, when there's not only a language barrier, but also some implicit biases. Yeah, well, and it's really hard to, she mentioned like that people will treat her daughter one way until they find out that she has a white parent and then they kind of do a 180 and treat her a different way. Obviously, there's a lot that needs to change in society in general, right? But I think it's important in the adoption community that we're aware that that is really, really prevalent.

15:34And so if you're considering international adoption or transracial adoption, be educated and be prepared for a lot of kind of bumps in the road when it comes to race. Yeah, and have these conversations and dialogues now and make it a part of your life now because it's going to be inevitably. Yeah, a couple of the interviews that we did talked a little bit about language and we talked to several people who are adopted internationally and thinking about like Adi and Akatia that they were adopted at a little bit later age.

16:12And so they would have been already learning or comprehending in their first tongue, right, or their first language. And to be taken from that environment and put into the United States in those situations, that that in itself is really traumatic. You know, it's a complete reset. A fifth theme that we've seen this season that we wanted to talk about is reunification. A lot of the people that we spoke with shared stories of reunification and we heard this from birth parents.

16:46And we also heard this from the adoptee side. And yeah, there were some cool stories. I loved Kathy's episode. Kathy's a birth mom and she talked about how she placed her daughter for adoption and didn't really anticipate seeing her or her adoptive parents again. But then about a year after placement, she was driving down the street while she was visiting her parents and saw her daughter's birth, her daughter's adoptive family.

17:17She saw her daughter's adoptive mom and so she stopped the car and they got out and hugged and talked. And from that point on, the adoption became open and she was in her daughter's life from that one year mark on. And such a neat story. I just love that they were able to have that reunification so early and so that she could have an open relationship with her daughter from that young age. Yeah, I would say a lot of adoptees in their 20s probably didn't have the same level of openness that Kathy was able to have with her daughter because that happened.

17:53Yeah, I mean, I feel like that's kind of the cusp of where it changed, right? Where adoptions went from being more closed to having openness become more. Yeah, at some level. Yeah, it's somewhere in that range though is when that happened. It would be interesting to know what those numbers look like. Yeah, but considering some of the adoptees that we chatted with and their experiences, I don't know if any of them aligned with maybe what they what the picture they painted would be.

18:26I particularly think what they expected. Yeah, yeah. I particularly think of Anacotia going to Costa Rica to try to find her birth mother and actually finding her. And rather than a hug, rather than taking a picture together, which she just didn't feel comfortable with at the moment, she gave her a cucumber. Yeah, that story was gut wrenching. It was beautiful, but such a hard story.

18:59And I loved her perspective through it all of recognizing that that's what her mother was able to give her. I also really loved Mary's story. It was also gut wrenching and hard. And when we say we love these stories, I mean, I learned from these stories and they just touched my heart and my soul. But there were hard things and Mary, her reunification story was also so unexpected,

19:29not what she was anticipating and not necessarily that smooth sailing that one might imagine or hope for. Yeah. And then I think one that still just kind of shocks me even when I think about it is Gina's story where being in the right place at the right time, they were able to connect after 17 years. And it's just amazing how many things had to fall into the right place for that to happen.

20:02So if you haven't listened to Gina's episode, go back and listen to hers. She has just such a crazy story. Yeah, all of these stories are just so beautiful. I hope that you've had a chance to listen to all of them. One thing that I really liked from our conversation with Michelle was that she as a birth mother recognized that if and when I reconnect with my son, that I need to give him some space. I need to let him choose when it's time for him to want to connect with me.

20:34And I think that was a really mature approach to the situation from her perspective. Also, she was an adoption professional and so maybe some additional insight on her part helped with that. But really focusing on the adoptees experience when we think about reunification is important. There may be secondary rejection. There may be, you know, someone that's passed away. Right. There's so many just pieces that aren't known and to be ready and expect the unknown.

21:07Yeah, another interview that really stuck with me was Katie when she talked about her reunification as well. How these things don't always go as we expect. Yeah, and I think Emily as well. She reconnected with her birth mother when she was a teenager. I think she was 10. Yeah. Oh, yeah. She was pretty young. And then her birth mom passed away not long after that. And she was grateful that she had met her. But it wasn't like they never really had a profound deep connection or relationship.

21:38And then much later when she's married, has children, she's able to connect with her birth father. And while some might be frustrated or sad that he's now remarried and parenting young children, she was just really excited and happy to see that he was in a place in life where he I think in her words, he had rebounded or he was in a good place that he could be a father to others when he was ready for that.

22:08So number six, we want to talk about options counseling and the importance of that. And it's really so important for adoptive parents and hopeful adoptive parents to make sure that we are encouraging and advocating for options counseling. When our youngest son was born, I remember we were signing all the paperwork and the case, the social worker asked our son's birth mom if she wanted to have counseling. And she said something on the lines of, oh, I don't want them to have to pay for that.

22:39And we were just like, no, you should have counseling and we should pay for it. And this is how it should work. And it's really just so important for adoptive parents to do all we can to encourage and support the expectant parents or birth parents in our lives to get that counseling options counseling before placement and post placement counseling and support afterwards. So when you say options counseling before you're saying we want to provide them an opportunity to really explore what options they have,

23:17whether parenting is an option, adoption being an option or what there I mean, there's other options as well. Yeah. Yeah, we don't want to make it so that it seems like this is the only choice. Right. Yeah. I mean, there were several birth moms that shared, well, I knew I wasn't going to get an abortion. So adoption was my only other choice. And that's not really the only other choice. Right. Right. And maybe it's the only choice that is right for them or that they feel equipped to look at.

23:47But having a professional to work with who's not going to push them one way or the other, they can really dig down and analyze these different options with I think is so important. Yeah, I remember Michelle, who again is an adoption professional. She shared that one of the organizations that she worked with, her boss said basically, like, do everything you can to talk these young women or these women out of adoption. And if they're still wanting to move forward with adoption, then we support them and we do everything that we can.

24:20But help them see that there are other options and don't pressure them into adoption. I thought that was really wise. And I think it's really empowering when expectant parents feel like it really is their choice. They can make this decision as an informed decision, but as a decision and not something that they're kind of backed into a corner to do. All right. Well, point number seven is ethics and adoption. And we learned a lot from the experiences of others when it comes to ethics.

24:53Yes, there's so much. We had an interview that we were so excited to share this season. And the person we interviewed ended up changing their mind about sharing their story, which is absolutely their choice. And we support and encourage. But this person's story was full of as an adoptee, it was full of lots of questionable ethical decisions that adoption agencies have made. And it was heartbreaking to hear all of these results and the ramifications of these poorly made decisions.

25:30Yeah. And so the particular situation you're talking about kind of echoes maybe one or two that we actually did here on the season, where children were placed in an orphanage. Yeah, in different countries. And were put there temporarily, but ended up being adopted rather than their biological parents coming back to the orphanage and picking them up as they had intended. So do your homework, do as much study as you can into the agency or group that you're working with.

26:06If you're if you're hoping to adopt. Yeah, ask questions, make sure that you're working with an organization that is. Not only just checking off the box to say, oh, yeah, we're we're ethical, but like really invested in making sure that they're treating children well, that the priority is taking care of these kids and doing what's right for them. Yeah. And the onus or the responsibility for that really falls on the shoulders of adoptive parents.

26:36Make sure that ethical practices are being followed. Yeah. And just making sure that we never look at adoption through this lens as adoptive parents or hopeful adoptive parents feeling entitled to a child or entitled to a placement because we're not entitled to anyone's child. Right. Yeah. Just because we struggle with infertility and we really want to have a baby. Yeah. Or whatever reason someone says to adopt. Yeah. Doesn't mean we deserve a baby.

27:10And that may be hard to hear. I think a couple of people shared it in those using the same words like this might be difficult to hear. But but it's important to think about and talk about. And I mean, in current events, I feel like we're always seeing and hearing different sides of this. But ethics and adoption is just such a huge and important discussion to have. I know right now in current events, there is a lot of talk about orphans in Ukraine who are being like rushed out of the country.

27:44And some people want to come and try to adopt them really fast and get them out of that war zone. But ultimately, what's in the best interest of the children is taking it slower and making sure that they don't have family or loved ones who are looking for them and trying to reunify. And I know that can be hard, but what really matters is making sure that we are doing our best to serve these children and help them and whatever outcome is best for them.

28:18Yeah, and that kind of echoes some of the thoughts that were shared by people we've interviewed about like saviorism or that mentality. And I don't think most people go into adoption saying I'm going to go save a baby from a bad situation, but it can look like that. And I don't know how many times this has happened to us, but people approach and they will say like, oh, you're you're just so good for adopting those babies. It drives me nuts when people talk like that. And I mean, I know they're coming from a good place like they're trying to be kind.

28:50But yeah, it's not a healthy way to talk about it. Yeah. And we don't go up to people who have given birth to their children and say, oh, your child is so lucky that you gave birth to them and that you feed them and clothe them. I mean, that's weird. Yeah. And so, yeah, just this idea of like saving them from a situation. That's not what adoption is about. It's not what it should be about.

29:20All right. So our eighth point that we wanted to talk about from the season is transparency with adoptees. So we talked a bit about this with Mary. She talked about how as a child, she had a great life. But as she as she grew older, she really wanted to know more about her experiences and why she was placed for adoption and who she was, what her biology was, like how she got where she was.

29:53She wanted to know her story. And I think that's a really natural thing to thirst for and need to know. And so she said she really did have a good childhood, but that was still something that she really wanted to know more about. And was she the one who said that they didn't really talk much about adoption growing up? It wasn't really like a taboo to talk about, but it just wasn't a conversation. Yeah. And she knew like two or three other children in schools and school that were also adopted, but they never really talked about it either.

30:26They just knew that it was a thing. Yeah, but that's interesting. Yeah. And it's different because obviously every kid is going to be different and every community is going to be different. It's hard for me to picture that because our oldest child talks about adoption to everybody. That's true. But she's just funny. On her first day of school this year, she went up to her teacher and said, hey, my name is this. And two things you need to know about me are that I was adopted and I have autism.

30:59She just really wanted them to know these two things that are such a big deal to her. So transparency with adoptees, as much as we can share parts of their story age appropriately with them, like it needs to happen from all angles of the triad or constellation, as it's been referred to in this season. And I think an important point for all of us is that we need to support adoptees and the feelings that they're having and also as they potentially are searching for answers to the questions that they have.

31:34Yeah. How can we arm ourselves to be better supports to the adoptees in our lives? Whoever we are, whatever our position in the adoption community is, how can we help adoptees and seek for more transparency? Point number nine is about foster care. We interviewed several people this season that shared about their experiences with foster care. And I've known individuals and families that have done it in the past, but I feel like I got a way better understanding of foster care from from these interviews.

32:08Yes. One of my very favorites was talking to Shane and Alicia and hearing how they root for the biological families of the kids they bring into their home. I just loved how they even now have this relationship with their foster kids mom. And even though the kids are back with their mom, they still see the kids and their mom. And they've really grown their family by embracing this family and becoming a support to them and just encouraging them and supporting them as they worked their way out of the foster care system.

32:44Yeah. And I think maybe I don't think this was in the interview itself, but maybe in her newsletter afterward, she talked about a respite placement that they had where they knew that the children that were coming to be with them would only be there for a week. And how they planned every day to be epic, to just show these kids as much love and care. And while that was great for them and they had a really positive time, she reflected afterward.

33:14She said, you know, as I walk down the streets of the city that I live in, I look at individuals differently after having been a foster parent. I see them all with more compassion and more love and just knowing that there's a lot of hard things going on in the world. And if I can be just a piece of doing some good, then I'm going to do what I can. But, yeah, just like looking at people differently because of the experiences she had, I really, really like that. I love that.

33:44Yeah, there were some really great discussions with foster parents about how we can better help these kids who are in need. All right. So our last point that we wanted to talk about in this episode is the importance of continually listening and learning. And that's I'd say particularly to adoptees, but just to the adoption community. Let's listen, engage and learn from each other. Yeah. And for me, it's so interesting and educating because I can hear one adoptee share an experience that mirrors another adoptees and one sees it as super positive and one sees it as super difficult.

34:27Or, yeah, I mean, just kind of all over the board with with different experiences. We just need to understand that everyone has a different story. Everyone feels things differently and we're never going to know how someone's really feeling unless we genuinely listen to them. And I love that. I feel like it just ties back with our very first point from this episode of listening with compassion and curiosity. And just continually listening, learning, growing together as a community, I think is really the ultimate purpose and goal we have here, too.

35:04Yep. And that will be our purpose moving forward. We do have plans for a season three. Next season, we're planning on having a little bit of a different format, maybe a little bit more topic based rather than individual story based. We'll still be sharing stories and different perspectives from new voices in the adoption community. But we'll also be talking more about certain subjects and if you have topics that you would like for us to address, then please let us know.

35:35We can try to work that into our season during our break and until we return on July 11th. You can also check us out on Instagram where we'll be sharing some videos and content about building and nurturing open adoption relationships. Thank you for having listened to us this season. Again, we're super excited and glad that we can be a voice, at least one voice in the adoption community that's promoting education, promoting connection, promoting transparency.

36:05And we're just so glad that we can share our stories and the stories of others with you, especially the stories of others. I feel like we started off sharing our story and that was kind of our purpose. And it's been even more empowering and engaging to share other stories. Definitely. We loved it. So thank you so much for being here and we will be back in July.

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