Rachel | Seeking Connection

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project, we're the Nelsons, I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun, and welcome to Season 3! So we've been gone for just a couple weeks, and have taken a nice little break from the podcast, and with Lanette not being in school right now, and me not conducting one of the local choirs that I do, it's been kind of relaxing to have fun in the summer. Yeah, it's been great. So we've had a nice little break, and we're excited to be back! So to start off, we just thought we'd introduce ourselves and our podcast for anyone who's joining us now.

0:35It's been a little while since we've done that, so we'd love for you to connect with us a little bit more, and understand what we're all about. Yeah, so the Open Adoption Project is about creating a safe place for conversations across the adoption triad for adoptive parents, birth parents, and adoptees. And really, our ultimate goal with our podcast is to improve adoptee experiences, to create these healthy, ongoing, open adoption relationships to benefit adoptees whenever possible. Yeah, so again, our ultimate goal here is to improve the adoptees' experience.

1:09We want to take a little bit of time to introduce ourselves to anyone that hasn't really listened to us at this point. So we live in Utah, in the Salt Lake area a little south of there, and I am originally from Colorado. And I'm originally from Oregon, and we met in college about 16 years ago, and we fell in love with each other and with the mountains here, so we stayed here. It was interesting, when we got married we both said that we wanted to go somewhere else.

1:40Yeah, we did not want to stay in Utah, but... The longer we've been here, the more we love it. Yep, it's a good place. Although we do love traveling as a family. Our family's been to 38 of the 50 states so far. We have a goal to get to all 50 soon. But it's been really fun. I think my favorite state so far is Vermont. And when I'm having a crappy day and I'm sick of different things around here, I look at houses in Vermont and daydream of opening a bed and breakfast. Yep, and a maple farm. Yep. Keep dreaming.

2:10I know, right? I work in nonprofit administration, and I really enjoy marathon running. I'm a pretty avid runner and run a marathon every three or four months. Lately we've bought e-bikes for the family, and we can fit all six of us on two bikes. It's pretty awesome. So we have Shaun's bike and my bike in between the two. We can cruise the whole town. When I ordered the bike that I drive, I got the replace the minivan kit.

2:42And on my bike, we could fit myself and the three boys. Yes, we love our bikes. So Rad Runner Bikes, if you're listening to us. If you ever want to sponsor us, we're really big fans. I mean, I alluded to this a little bit ago, but I conduct a community choir and love music. Yeah. Tell us about you. All right. So I work as a stay at home parent, and I'm also in grad school. I'm getting a master's in public administration.

3:12And I love reading. I love writing. And my big dream is I want to publish a young adult novel someday. I have many attempts, but they're all quite subpar. So someday we'll get there. I've read some of them and they're pretty good. Oh, thank you. I love cooking. We eat tacos pretty much every other day lately. I'm in a big taco kick. But there are different kinds of tacos. It's true. We have fish tacos, like Korean beef, all kinds of delicious tacos. I love love tacos. The summer of tacos.

3:42Yes, it is. And we are the parents of four kids and all of our kids were adopted and they all have open adoptions. And so what open adoption is, is when you have a relationship with your kids, biological family, right? When an adoptee sees their biological family and has this ongoing relationship with them. And there's many different kinds of openness. That's one of the reasons we started our podcast. We wanted to help people see what open adoption could be because we've been really lucky.

4:12We have these amazing relationships with our kids, birth families. And honestly, we consider them our family as well. We've just had this huge exponential growth in our family as each of our kids have joined our family where we see all of their birth moms. We have contact with all of their birth dads. We see their half siblings, their grandparents, uncles, aunts. It's just grown into this huge family. And one of my favorite things is that so many of their grandparents have really adopted all of our kids.

4:42As grandkids too, just helping us create this really big, amazing village of people who love and care about our kids. And I think that's really what open adoption should be about. Yeah. And pretty uniquely, I think all four of our children were born in Utah, in the state that we live. And so we're pretty close to most of their birth family. We do have one of our birth parents that moved to the East coast and a set of grandparents that live out there. And we're actually going to be taking a trip here in a couple of weeks to visit them both.

5:16Yes, which is great. And also one reason we can't ever move to Vermont. We can't leave Utah. We have so much family here. So much connection. Yes. But as I said, we do love traveling. My favorite state is Vermont. Shaun, what's yours? I think so far, I mean, it just depends on why. Like I love the beach. And so North Carolina, like the Outer Banks, I love the beach there. Yeah, I don't know. There's just good food in different places, good culture in different places, and just love being all over the place.

5:47It's true. But we really do love Utah and we love our home states of Oregon and Colorado. I think those are pretty high up there. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So this season, we're going to be changing our podcast format just a little bit. We're going to be shifting to dropping an episode every other Monday. So at this point, our podcast is a hobby and we want to make sure that we can continue sharing content and encouraging these dialogues. We really love doing that. So we've adjusted our schedule so that we can keep things more sustainable.

6:17A little more balanced. Yes. And so we'll be sharing interviews, panels, discussions, focusing on some frequently asked questions or requested topics. And so we'll have something coming out every other Monday. And just on those lines, if you have any topics that you'd love to hear us talk about, please contact us. You can get to us at openadoptionproject.gmail.com. You can go to openadoptionproject.org. There's a contact form there or you can find us on Instagram at openadoptionproject.

6:47Yep. We love hearing from you guys. We love hearing what would help you and yeah, just how the podcast can be useful for you. I really have loved hearing from people all across the adoption triad who listen to our podcast. I hope that it's helpful and a good tool for everybody. It's really meaningful to try to help. Yeah. Well, let's jump into this week's episode. Today we have a conversation with Rachel and Rachel is both an adoptee and a birth mother of twins.

7:18Yeah, I loved talking to Rachel. She's a really sweet, good person and she shared her story with us. And talked about her life growing up as an adoptee and her relationship with her birth family. And how that all played into her decision to place her twins for adoption and the relationship that she has with them now. So we'll just go ahead and jump right into that. We know that you're going to enjoy hearing from Rachel. We just really appreciate all of our guests who are willing to share their stories and their hearts with us on the podcast.

8:07Okay. Well, we are now on the podcast with Rachel. Rachel, thank you so much for being with us. Thank you for having me. We're so happy to have you. Can we have you just start by introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about yourself? Well, I'm Rachel and I'm from Georgia. I think people don't realize how hot Georgia can be right now, but it is really hot. Real feel 104. So, I mean, it's hot down here, but I'm enjoying it. That is hot.

8:37And has Georgia always been home for you or for a long time? No, I was born in Kentucky and moved around a little bit as we grew up. My dad worked for IBM. So we didn't even think Georgia would be the resting spot. We just thought it was going to be a quick stop for a couple of years and go on, but it ended up being home to us. I was like seven, so it ended up being the home that I considered like home, I guess. And tell us a little bit about like what you like to do in your spare time.

9:08Yeah, like those hobbies or anything like that. Well, what's funny is I actually started garden this year with jalapenos, cherry tomatoes, cucumber, and zucchini. And it's the garden's coming along well. And then I'm just starting to like do things in life that are a little bit different than how they were just a few years ago. I'm like who I am again. Nice. And trying to find my identity.

9:38Yeah. Wonderful. That's great. And I love that you're gardening. I think that's such a great thing. Therapeutic and delicious. It is. And one other thing, I do scrapbook. I love to scrapbook. Oh, cool. Yeah, our thing right now is raising chickens. So. Do you eat their eggs? We do. Yeah, pretty fun. And the kids like it. They it's a good thing to teach them like responsibility and taking care and helping. So it's really fun. Yeah, we've had some chicks lately. They're so cute.

10:08Little baby chicks. So fun. Awesome. Well, again, thank you for being with us. We're really excited to get to hear from you and your perspective. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Oh, we're so grateful. So you are an adoptee and a birth mom. And so you have these two perspectives. We love hearing these double perspectives. So can you share your story as an adoptee first? Okay, I don't. Okay. So sorry if I get emotional and cry.

10:39Don't apologize. It's like it was kind of almost like kind of like a God situation. My parents couldn't have kids. And so they told their next door neighbors who they were close friends with that they're going to look into adoption. And they were like, oh, well, you know, our niece is looking to adopt. And then they were like, but like my mom said that she told them that they found a woman

11:13they were talking to. But their niece ended up being the woman my parents were talking to. And so like I grew up next to my aunt and uncle for five years, not knowing they were really my aunt and uncle, but I used to call them that. And so if my birth mother went to their house, my mom would keep me inside. But I still had a relationship without knowing it was a biological relationship. Interesting. Wow. I was just going to say how interesting that you were even calling them aunt and uncle

11:44without knowing. And then my grandma, I forget the my great grandma, I called her what all the other grandkids did, but it came out naturally. Like I didn't know. And, you know, when she was in her, you know, the last of her days, my uncle decided to tell her that I was on my birth mother's trees, that I live next door and that they were like, well, you know who comes in and sees you and stuff.

12:15And she squeezed his hand because she couldn't talk. And he told her, well, that's your great granddaughter. And he said a tear went down her cheek and she was smiling because she couldn't talk. And so that's always fun to hear. It's really, really sweet. I love hearing stories. Yeah. Yeah. I think they help form bonds and connections in really meaningful ways. Yeah, because my uncle said he had a dream. He would see me grow up.

12:45And my birth mother had another set of people she was looking at. And she said she had a bad dream about them. And that's why she ended up choosing my parents. So like, it was a lot of God and having dreams with this whole part. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about when you, did you always know you were adopted? What was the conversation around adoption? No, I always knew even like when I was, you know, couldn't understand. My parents always told me they like, there's never a time where I'm like,

13:18did I not know? And I felt very guilty asking my mom and dad questions. And they were not hurt. They were very open as, oh, because it was a semi-open adoption. And so they sent Therese like every year a packet of photos and an update. And she saw me when I was six months. I wonder what the conversation was around adoption. Like, were your parents positive about adoption when they talked about it? Oh. How was that conversation in your home? Okay, so they were so supportive.

13:51Like, you know, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Mulberry Bird adoption story. I don't think so. Oh my gosh. If not, you have to look into that. And then they got me a couple others, like child understanding about adoption. Like this one about this girl who had red curly hair, but the rest of her family didn't, you know, it was cartoonish. And so they had those, you know, and they, on my adoption day, when the papers were signed, they celebrated it as like an extra birthday for me.

14:22And like, you know, it just, it was never like, they never spoke bad. They're these, I love my parents. Like I considered them my real parents, you know, like, cause you know, they just did everything and they even growing up were like, you know, I know this is a side random note, but they're like, be careful addiction and alcoholism run in your family. And I was in my mind, I was like, nothing's going to happen because I have a great family.

14:53And then later on in life stuff happened. So they were always keeping me aware of stuff in the family and like also respecting the boundaries that Teresa and actually my, her mom said. Okay. So you said that you got that Teresa got to see you when you were six months old. And did you see each other again during your childhood? No, no, she didn't. She wasn't ready.

15:25And that hurt. I wrote her lots of letters and I never heard from her and they were going to wait until I was 18 and she was going to wait until I was 18 and then see where I was at and then possibly me. But the childhood, nothing. I got three pictures of her, one of a baby, her as a baby, one as like a teenager and one of her as she had a son when she was 15 before me. And he's three years older and a picture of her and him. And those are all I had.

15:57And my aunt and uncle weren't allowed to tell me until I was 18. So it's really 18 when more knowledge came about. So since then, what attempts have you had to have a relationship or contact with her? I wanted more, but she doesn't. And only my aunt and uncle really do. I met my brother and my grandma and my uncle passed away, but she doesn't really.

16:29I try and I've just stopped at this point because it hurts. Just, you know, I did have a feeling of abandonment and it just reinforced it because, you know, my brother was older than me. So like, and she kept him. And like when you get older, the situation's more understandable. But then my parents adopted me and then they biologically have my sister. So growing up, I had this concept where I just wasn't good enough. And it kind of like having that rejection. It's hurtful.

17:02And I just don't know anything about my dad. He didn't, I don't, I don't know how to find out, you know, anything about him. And she doesn't give much. So it's just, it's just, I don't know. It's sad. It hurts. Have you ever done any like genealogy testing, like 23andMe or Ancestry.com? I did. I got that for Christmas a couple of years ago. And I was like, I'm going to go to the gym. I got that for Christmas a couple of years ago. But yes, I did that because, you know, I question, you know, I don't know my family.

17:33I don't know, you know, like, and I, you know, I still feel guilty questioning or asking my mom and dad stuff, but they have never once shown, you know, they don't see it as betrayal. So, but in my mind, kind of like that, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, that's so hard. So you've talked a little bit about this guilt and these feelings that creep in, even though it's not maybe something perpetuated by your adoptive parents, it's still something you're feeling, right?

18:04And guilt is something that a lot of adoptees feel when they want to have connection with their biological family, right? Do you have any advice for adoptees who are trying to forge these relationships who are struggling with that guilt? I mean, the best I could get is like, you know, it can be a disappointment when those relationships don't form the way you want them to, or you can't even find like say a parent or both parents, just having the family that adopted me, loved me as much as they could,

18:39and be there to support me and knowing I can rely on them, but them being so good is what gave me the guilt. So, you know, I have a couple of close friends and my roommate, and I talked to her a lot about it. And I, you know, I will go to my parents, you know, and be open with them. And, you know, I just actually saw my aunt and uncle recently because they're not doing very well health-wise. And I just visited them not too long ago and my birth mother said she'd come and she didn't.

19:11And that hurt. That's why it's like sometimes some of the questions like make me cry. So, but I mean, it's just something that like you have to find something to put your energy into other than wanting to just find out. Because it's, there's a difference between like family and just people who have the same bloodline as you. Sometimes it's both and sometimes it's not. I mean, it doesn't all need to be blood related to have a good close-knit family.

19:43So, one thing that you said, and I'm thinking about like support for you as an adoptee, sometimes you have questions or maybe you want to talk through some things and your parents are like open and willing to talk about that. But sometimes there's some extra guilt from your part because of the questions you have. But you mentioned that having friends or your roommate or other people that you can connect with to have those discussions, that that's a good support system for you. Definitely. And also, I know this is going to sound weird, but I've joined a lot of Facebook groups that

20:17have to do with adoption. They also have to do with like all the different parts of adoption, like the triad of adoption with the birth parent, the child and adopted parents. And like, you know, like joining these Facebook groups, I've been able to find different sources where I can relate with someone. And that's really all I want is to relate with someone or have someone go, I've been there too, you know, and if they have more knowledge, this is how I went through it.

20:49And I want to be an example too, as well. Eventually, I think that's such a key thing that we all need, right? That connection, knowing that we're not alone. I love that thought on the Facebook groups. Also, a fun little shout out. That's how we were connected. You're an adoption Facebook group. So yeah, throw out a little plug. I'll find connections that way. Yeah, it's important. Facebook or Instagram, there's there are so many online venues now where we can connect with people in very similar situations as us anywhere in the world.

21:21Right. Right. 20 years ago, 15 years ago, we didn't have nearly the capability that we have now. Right. So we take advantage of that. Right. Yes. Yes. So in addition to being an adoptee, you're also a birth parent. I am. I am. Yeah. Could you tell us a little bit about that experience? That's obviously a little bit more recent. So share with us as much as you're comfortable. Okay, well, I am post placement like a year.

21:54February last year was when I placed and they were born January 12th. I had twins and I thought about adoption halfway through because I knew I was adopted and their father denied and their father bailed. And then he was continuing to use drugs and in jail. And so I decided to get sober because I found out I was pregnant while I was using. And so I went to this place that helped women who are pregnant and to stay sober and get

22:26sober and have tools. And then I decided to keep them. So I went through a lot of like, should I, shouldn't I while I was pregnant? And I didn't get much support in the area of wanting to keep them, which was very hard. My mom said something that was, that was really tough to hear because I was like, you have no faith in me. And she said, no. And like, I took that personal, but again, my situation was, I was an addict who just got sober, you know, who has no, like who is in a, who wasn't a toxic girl, you know?

23:00So then, then January came about and they were born two months early and I was laughing the whole time. I was at having contractions. Like, I was like, I don't know what's going on. I don't think I'm supposed to feel this. And then I went and, you know, I had to have a C-section because the little girl was not faced down and she was baby A and she was stubborn like me. And so I, so I saw them for two seconds and then they were put in the NICU and I couldn't

23:30see them for hours. And then when I saw them, I, it was just love at first sight, you know, um, I was like, um, and I wanted to keep them and I still was going to, and then they were in the NICU for about a month. He had, he had to stay because he had some other issues that weren't serious, but he had to take like antibiotics for like five days. And I took her home for about four days and I realized how hard it was. And like, what really set it off was a pack of the diapers they sent me home with, like

24:04the sticky parts didn't work. And I'm on SSI as well. So like, I was like, I can't financially, I can't like do for these babies what I want, what was done for me. You know, I want them to have a life that I can't provide. So it was very hard. I prayed to God. I said, can you send me signs? And just the whole weekend were signs. And, um, and it shows adoption through Lifeline Child Services that is in, that is in based in Alabama.

24:34And I called my caseworker who I'd been talking on and off to, and I said, I can't do it. Can I choose adoption still? And she said, yes. And that Wednesday she gave me some parents to look through and it's like their bases on the front. And then it's like stuff about them, like a whole book. And I found, I saw a picture of this couple and I just knew it was like this feeling and I was just new. And then I looked into their book and they seemed a lot like my parents.

25:04So we met, sorry, I'm shaking now. Sorry. I'm just, um, so then on Thursday we were going to, um, zoom. Sorry. I always see anything face time. We were going to zoom. And when they did, I told my caseworker, don't tell them I chose them. I want to record it so I can remember it. So when I do have a tough day or I need reminding that this was a good decision, this is, this is going to be the moment. So I asked them, is it okay to record?

25:36And then I was like, I'm choosing you. There's just so many reasons why I'm choosing you guys. And they cried and I cried and they were like, well, when do we get to see the twins? And I'm like, that's the thing we're going to meet Saturday and you're going to take them home. And they were like, twins, like, what are we going to do? Like Friday, like bad for them. Cause like they had only Friday really to get ready. And, um, so Saturday came and they, she gave me the, the adoptive mother gave me other

26:12flowers and said, well, let me take that back. Let me rewind a little bit. I held them both in my arms as they walked in and I had that recorded as well. And like, you could just hear her excite the mother's excitement. She just like had like a little yelp, like, like a screen, not even a screen, but some like, you know, so excited, like, ah, and, um, I said, meet your babies. Cause, um, you know, they were going to keep his first name and her middle name if they,

26:42so that was really cool. And I say, here's your babies. And then I told my babies, here's your new parents. And, um, it was hard after that. Um, I felt like a horrible mother. I felt like a terrible person. I felt guilt in that area. Um, but I knew I did the best I could and that I love them. And because I love them, I'm, I'm willing to hurt to give them a better life.

27:14If that makes sense, you know, because I don't have what it takes or what it took and still don't have what it takes to be a successful mother and bring up children that are going to be like taught the lessons I've been taught or like have the values. So it was just like, it was really hard to say goodbye. And then it's like, since I met, I saw them at six months and then I get to see them in the next, on June 30th.

27:44So I get my year with all this and I have my mother's name and I'm like, oh, I'm going to have my moments where it's tougher than others. Um, but they send me every month, they send me pictures or videos and updates when really they only have to do it every four months. And um, you know, their mother gave me yellow flowers and said, these are the yellow because I just want our friendship to continue to grow. And she wrote me a sweet letter that made me tear up. And for birth mother's day, she sent me, she's like, I cannot bathroom what your heart has

28:18been through. But you know, you have lightened up my life, our lives. And just to see like they have so they're all my kids and like the twins are always smiling, like always smiling. And like when I get videos and I see like just everything, it's just a comfort and to see how big the family grows. Like my parents are very involved too with this and like they send them books the way

28:49my aunt and uncle did to me and my sister growing up. So like, yeah, so I just have fears though for them because they are biracial, but the couple is white. So I have fears, just the normal fears the mother would have. And sometimes I question if it's okay for me to have these fears because um, you know, I'm not, I'm not actively their mother. So and then like when people ask if I have kids and I say yes, and like I chose adoption,

29:24I feel like I have to explain my story, which I know shouldn't. But the judgment there's, there is a lot of judgment that comes from the outside of people who don't understand. And I'm curious and I'll ask you guys, like, was it hard to have a relationship with the birth mother? Like, was it easy? Like, you know, cause I, it's scary to figure out how to build it. Because you don't want to go as a birth mother, I don't want to do anything that's like pressuring, you know, that's my another big cause I put too much pressure and they go, whoa, hold on.

29:55Yeah. I mean, for us, I feel like our daughter, our oldest is our girl and then we have three boys and our daughter's birth mom is amazing. She is, you remind me a lot of her. She's very loving and just so wonderful. And I look back and I feel like we probably weren't as secure back then with our role as parents. And so I wish we had done a couple of things differently, but luckily she's been super

30:25graceful with us learning and figuring things out. And I mean, yes, it's been amazing to grow that relationship, but it has taken time and we've been really, really lucky to have her grace. Yeah, and in addition to that, I would just say, I think we learned through time that the more open communication and honest communication, obviously courteous and time communication, but the more open we were about our feelings and about situations on both sides, the better

30:55our relationship got. Yeah. Yeah. And it is hard, right? It's a different kind of relationship than any other relationship, but it's so special. Yeah. And in our conversations with her, she's like, yeah, in the beginning, I just wanted to give space because I wanted your relationship with her to bond, like that bond to happen. And we were like, we just wanted to give you everything you needed, but we didn't know what you needed. Yes. So luckily we've gotten, we've all gotten better communicating over time.

31:27That sounds so good. Because I don't want to be too much. And then yeah, I'm sure you're not. Yeah. And I just said, like, I have a Father's Day card I got him. You know, I find like I do that last year, I found her a Mother's Day and him a Father's Day card that didn't really say, oh, you're my dad. Or like, it's just a generic one. I found that because I want them to know how grateful I am that they keep me a part of their lives. Because some of the things I have seen are kind of scary to see that like people are

31:58promised this, this and this, but... Heartbreaking. So yeah, I mean, we've talked a lot about this a lot on the podcast before, but expectant or hopefully adopted couples of those that are hoping to adopt, if you make any promise at all, like you better keep it. Don't commit to anything that you're not willing to really commit to. And I think that your feelings right now highlight that. So important.

32:28And I think that's really where we struggled with our first adoption. We were so sure that we didn't want to break any promises, right? And so we were like, well, we don't want to over promise. So I think we were just a little too careful. Like, oh, well, we're not sure how many visits to do because we don't want to overdo it. But over time, it just became very natural. Hang out with your family. Yeah, because they are an awesome couple. They're more reserved than my parents. Like they're a little bit more quiet. But like, you know, there's times where I try not to talk about the kids or anything

33:02at all. Like I just want to talk about them or what's going on in my life. Like I'm about to have two years sober August 12th. And you know, I'll probably tell them. Congratulations. Really exciting. Thank you. I got the twins saved my life. They got me healthy. I don't smoke cigarettes anymore. That's been a year. Like, you know, I work out, you know, like these babies, even though I am not currently taking care of them, have been what has drastically changed my life, even though it does hurt a little bit.

33:32They are my saviors, you know, they saved me from a rough path. Like path I could have been going down. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with us. That's really vulnerable, but really, really sweet. Thank you. So I'd love to hear more about your thought process as you ended up deciding on adoption. I know it sounds like it was kind of a whirlwind, right? Yeah, a whirlwind. It was because the where I was at is called Hope House in Augusta and I'm open so I don't

34:07mind. And all these girls were like, keep the baby, keep the babies. And like a couple of them were like, well, keep one and like give the other one away. I'm like the verbiage that some of these women had can really mess with your mind. So I was just like, I let that influence me. And then I was angry at my mom for saying what she did. So like I acted selfishly at first, but it was like, it was like, I let these women get

34:37in my head and they were even trying to tell me exactly what to name them, like rhyme their names like Daniel and Danielle. I'm like, luckily that didn't happen, but I mean like it was almost like I didn't have my own thoughts because I was just in a vulnerable state, like, you know, with physical, like mentally and emotionally, just getting sober. So like, you know, it just was very confusing and I just kept going back and forth, back

35:09and forth. Now I did choose, I had two families I FaceTimed or Zoomed with, with my caseworker before I had the babies. And when I had them, I actually said, Hey, are any of those families still available? And she said, no. And so I was really scared. I was going to find, not find anyone or find the reason. And like when I found them, I was like, mom, I found them. I haven't even looked into it. They're like, she's like, I think you need to look at the rest. I said, if I do, I'm going to make sure I keep these babies and that is not what they

35:42need. And you know, like it's just, I knew as being adoptee that that's the best thing to do when you can't provide like, you know, SSI doesn't provide much money, you know, like there's would be food stamps and wick and all this stuff, but I would not want my babies to have to live like from like, you know, check to check like me, you know, I want them to be able to have their dreams. And that's what really helped me in the end was remembering I was adopted and like what

36:14happened and how I was able to do what I want, play sports, you know, like go on vacations, you know, and I would never have been like, be able to provide that. So that was the biggest thing is like, like kind of trying to reassure myself if that makes sense, like I'm doing the right thing and I'm not doing, I thought I thought I was a lazy person and that's why I couldn't be a mom because I was lazy and I've had to get over that and realize it's not laziness.

36:45I have other issues that played into this. So ultimately you said you brought your daughter home for a couple days and then in that process or you know, actually parenting at home, that's kind of when it switched for you. Can you talk a little bit more about that experience? I loved her and I loved holding her and I loved giving her kisses and I loved everything, but you know, I naturally have a hard time sleeping and there were a couple of times

37:17I fell asleep with her in my arms, which is kind of, I feel shame about, but you know, some of the staff, you know, were worried about like when I did do that. And so like I loved her so much and it's just, it was so hard because I was like, I was getting frustrated and I think I was struggling with postpartum and anger of not like, like she's asleep all day, but then up all night and like I'm backwards and I didn't, you know, everyone's

37:50like, well, you need a nap when she sleeps, like even if it's like mixing up your schedule. And I think having postpartum also, like when I felt angry at her, I felt so scared. And that's another thing that changed my view is like, oh my gosh, like how can you ever get mad at a baby? I know it was postpartum, but still it was like, this is a baby, you know, like I, I, this baby deserves the best and knowing that I was going to have to have a little boy come

38:22home, I was just like, I just, I just can't do it. And it was, it was very hard. I cried so hard and had a panic attack that I don't think she could understand me, the adoption counselor, but she came that night actually and took baby girl to a family that watches the children until the mother, biological mother finds parents she wants, or if the mom doesn't even, the biological mom doesn't choose, you know, I don't know what it's called,

38:55but you know, they stay together and they sent pictures and, but yes, I loved it and I loved the thought. And you know, I've always been wanting to be a mom and I just realized with her there, I was like, it's almost, I was like delusional thinking that it would be like, it would be like a good situation until I did take her home. Like you said, like it just wasn't, it just wasn't rainbow sunshine and everything.

39:27Like I thought it was going to be. Well, and I think that's pretty human nature, right? Where we, we want to see the best in ourselves and we want to think that we can accomplish everything. Um, and well, and we imagine that like we have an idolized vision. Yeah. And you don't imagine babies crying all the time when you think of having a new baby, you know? Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of respect from us when, when we hear this story, because you, you recognized

39:57what limits you had at that time at least, and made decisions that you felt were, were right. And I kind of wanted to go back to what you were talking about, kind of all the chatter or the other voices. Did you feel like when you actually made the decision that that was more like, this is me making my decision and I feel good about this? Or did you still feel like there were people that were influencing? Um, at that point, no, I did not allow anyone to influence me.

40:29Now their judgments hurt. Um, they were like, you could have done it. We would have helped, but it's like, come on now. Like I've been through this before. There's so many promises and then no one stays friends. Like I'm not going to like do this and, and the day I chose adoption, my parents were also allowed to come while I signed the paperwork and a girl walked by and snapped a photo of my parents holding my baby. And cause the door was open briefly. And so like these girls are very petty, gossipy and like you want to fit in.

41:02So like, you know, you, you kind of want to do what they say. I'm more of a follower than a leader. And so I was allowing that. And then finally, when I did choose the adoption, besides for, you know, feeling the hurt, I did not let the chatter continue anymore. Cause I was like, these women aren't going to be with me in three to five years. They're not going to be with me for 18 years.

41:33So I did shut it off eventually, but they were very influential for the majority of the pregnancy. Yeah. That's so hard. So you've talked about how this caseworker came when you called her. Um, how do you, what kind of support did you receive from her, from that agency that you worked with? Did you receive counseling after? Um, they have, she has sent me a lot of like paperwork and stuff and like, um, you know,

42:03she's always there for me. And like, I just talked to her earlier today. Like she's just like, call me whenever. So I called her when I was pregnant. I called her when I said I didn't want to choose adoption, but I let her know how that, like we've always had an open relationship. And last year, it was, it was, I forget what month it was, but they, every year have a birth mothers retreat. And I went and I met other birth mothers and they, this year that last year they went with

42:33another adoption agency, which I'm not sure what it was. It was another Christian one. And I met women who I still talk to and, um, you know, everyone was scared to tell their story. And for my years sober, my roommate, my, I call her my fru me cause she's my rent friend and roommate and she gave me a coin for a year sober. And I brought that with me. And, you know, I was like fidgeting with it when I told my story and I was like, I just sat down. I was like, if anyone else needs to use this as a fidget kind of thing to tell their story,

43:06it really helps. And they all did. They, and it was just, it felt really cool to like kind of be an example in a positive way and just, you know, like, but back to, sorry, back to, um, My counselor, she just got married. So I didn't get to talk to her for a couple of weeks. And then I get like, whenever I want to send presents, me and her will meet up and have lunch and catch up. And then that two or three times for like this past Easter for Christmas, cause their

43:37last Easter, not this one, but the year before it didn't get delivered what I wanted to send. So I asked her if she'll meet up. She drives from Atlanta and we meet in like, um, around Greenville, like, or not Greensboro, Georgia. So we meet halfway and she like, we'll take the packages and like, she's also sent me like, you know, from Etsy, how you can get engraved necklaces and stuff. Like she got me a present for that.

44:07She wrote me something for birth, like birth mother's day. So she's really sweet and she's very proactive, even though the adoption has been finalized and it's been over a year. She's very good at what she does. And you still feel that support. I do. I do. And I, you know, it's, you know, I'm excited to see, you know, the retreat for this year and you know, like see if any of these other women are going to come. Um, so like, it's just having that support through the agency has helped as well because

44:40she has given me like, and she gave me a book that's kind of like a journal, but like journaling through emotions you go through as a birth mother, like prompts, prompts. So like they have been very good and they've helped me find counselors and they've helped me find grief groups outside, you know, so like they have, they do have a good, like after placement relationships. That's awesome.

45:11So you're a little over a year post placement. Looking back, what do you wish you would have known about adoption as from the birth mother perspective that you didn't know that maybe would have made the process a little easier for you? Kind of like the relationship between the adoptive parents or their parents and me would be okay. Having that reassurance and not because when you see those, like that's what would have really helped me because like every month I'm like, oh my gosh, are they going to email

45:44me? But like, you know, I'm getting, I've gotten through that. That's what I meant to say. But like it's the relationship, knowing that the relationship is what it is today. Like if I knew I was going to be getting stuff every month, it would have made it less hard to choose adoption because I love them so much and I don't want to be like my birth mom. I don't want them to wonder any questions. I want to, I want to be there to tell them.

46:14I love that. I love how much it's just so apparent that you care for them so much and love them so much. And you were talking earlier about how you feel like maybe guilt or like you shouldn't be feeling these motherly instincts, right? But I think that's so natural. And of course you do. They'll always be part of you and you just love them so much. But I love how you've taken your experiences and tried to give your kids the best thing you can.

46:44Yeah. That's so beautiful. So how do you feel your experience as an adoptee has shaped what you've done as a birth mom, the choices you've made and how you've tried to build this relationship? It has helped me not to not do what my birth mother did. I want to do everything opposite. She did. There's moments that we've had talked briefly periods, but like, I never want my kids to be like, did I really like, who do I come from?

47:14Like where do I get these personality traits from? Like, you know, like simple things, you know, even like, does she, did she have a favorite color song? Like, you know, like just, I want to be there for them and not ever have them question if I loved them. Cause that's what happened to me growing up. So yeah, I can tell right now that they're always going to know that. Yeah. So apparent, so apparent.

47:44Their parents always say, you know, like I said, what do you want? Like what can I get them for their birthday? They're like, well, can you give us a picture of you so we can put it in their room? And always be able to see you and tell them about you. So like, it feels good. They say they speak of me now too. And that feels good. Sorry. No, that's so important. Maybe, maybe a similar question. Thinking of your parents as adoptive parents or how does that influence your role as a

48:17birth mom now? The first one I had to realize was we're not co-parenting. It's not a co-parenting situation. I wanted people like my parents, like who have some sort of faith, like Christianity, like who have the same morals and values and to see my parents and how they raised me and my sister is something I really was looking for, for the twins.

48:49And I always joke, like I have this little joke because they're Auburn fans and my dad went to Auburn and I'm an Auburn fan. And I was like, they have this, their book has a picture of them with Auburn shirts. I said, that's the real reason. And I joke around because I think that's funny. And like, you know, like everything matched up when I looked at their book and how my parents raised me and my sister. Like there's pictures of her, their mother and her mother cooking cookies for Christmas or like fishing, you know, like stuff and like just having a big family themselves,

49:23you know, was just, it was like, I was seeing my life over again. I love that. Also a side note, we did an interview with another birth mother from Georgia and she's from North Carolina. Yeah. And she made a very similar comment about a football team and why she didn't choose a family. She was so close to choosing, she really loved them, but they were rooting for the team she did not love. And she was like, no way. I hate that team. Anyway, football runs thick in the blood.

49:57And you know, and something else that someone told me stuck out that made me really, really want this couple is the type of dogs they have. They had two dogs and they're really hard to train and they're really hard to like, I forgot what they were and I wish I had a picture, but I don't. Their book is at my parents' house. So I don't like sometimes get sad and make the situation worse, you know?

50:29But the type of dogs they had are very hard, like they require patience. So when I heard that, I was like, okay, and these are twins. So they're gonna need patience. It's a baby period. I mean like they're gonna need patience. So I know that seems kind of weird because I don't want to compare babies to dogs, but I know that if they have two dogs that are really hard to train and have patience for, I was like, having twins might be a breeze for them. Like I saw the outlet of their house and they told me about their yard.

51:01Sorry, I'm going off track. Everything about them is just perfection to me. And you know, they have been there and what I've, I had, like you said, the openness, I like I had to tell them a couple of times, you know, I'm struggling missing the kids and you know, they acknowledge it and they're there for me for it. That's so good. Yeah. And I think that no apologies about like just talking about your connection with them. And I think you mentioned in the beginning as you were sharing that you saw their picture

51:34and you just felt it like you just knew. And I've heard that phrase so many times now in the interviews and conversations that I just knew. And beautiful. Yeah. And I mean, we've had that experience in our own family being chosen by a birth mother. And when you know, you know, and it's great that there are those things that draw you

52:04together, whether it's a football team or the way that, you know, the same type of pets you like, you make, there's so many different things that can draw people to connect with each other. But in many of the instances that people have shared, it sounds like there's some, no, no coincidence and often referred to divine intervention or connection. Right, right. And you know, I really do like my sister's friends have adopted through that agency internationally

52:35and in the States. And this agency, as I said, Lifeline Child Services, I really want to commend them because they almost have like, not, I don't want to say training. They have like a weekend where they teach them how to respect the birth mother, how to love a birth mother. Like how to handle if you do have children that are of a different race than you, you know, all about adoption, like they have to go through the, not only just the, the, the stuff, I don't know what all the, you guys have to go through like housing and checking

53:09and stuff. And, but they, you know, they did a little extra that gave, and then, you know, it was a Christian company and you know, I'm not like a hardcore Christian. I'm very non-denominational when it comes to like that stuff, but I, I still believe in God. And I was like, yeah, I saw that picture and I was, and everyone, and then I, when I told my mom, she's like, you need to look at the rest. I said, no, if I look at the rest, I said, these people are just like you. And even she's older than him. Like my mom is my dad. And like, I'm just like, I know that's so minute and not like probably significant,

53:42but to me for some reason that is, cause it's like these people are just so much like my parents and, and I know they're going to have the best life. Well, that says a lot about your parents too. That's really a good tribute to them. Well, you shared a lot with us and we're so grateful for that. Is there anything else like knowing that we have people from all over the adoption triad? I, I kind of want to, one of the people that we interviewed a while ago called it the adoption

54:12constellation because it's not always as pretty as one, two, three sided. But like what, what advice or what maybe parting words would you share with this community about your experience or what you've learned? Adoption is hard and, and, and it's tough on all sides. You know, it's, it's, it's a learning process. And like you, like you guys said, and like, just went, like we talked about, if you, if

54:47you tell a birth mother, you're going to do something, if it's appropriate, follow through with it, you know? And for birth mothers, you know, I just encourage them, like it's, it is hard, it is hard to see your baby, but your baby does wonder, you know, like that's, that is, that's why I choose to stay very active with them as well. Cause I never want my baby to question. I mean, it is hard cause sometimes the way, I don't know, it's like toxic relationships,

55:22you know, happen. And then, you know, like mine and their father's and, you know, I feel bad if they ever have to, you know, question about him. I, I now I know down the road, like I'll eventually have a conversation with the parents if they have questions and how to handle that. But yeah. And I want to tell you this one, this one last thing, cause I know I talk a lot, but there's, there's this nonprofit organization called funding love.

55:54I don't know if you guys have heard of it. It's on Facebook and it's, and it's also on the internet and it says adoption is messy. Adoption is hard. Adoption is love. And they actually take adoptive parents and the kids and they send them to a week long Disney trip, all expenses paid. And last year they started doing with birth mothers and I got picked this year to go with 12 other birth mothers to Disney in September and like start some new relationships.

56:25Now I know one of them was at the birth mother luncheon that my agency had. So like, I know two of them, cause one of them was also from the retreat. So you really don't realize how small the, the, the, um, adoption world is really, but it's also big at the same time. But yeah, I just kind of wanted to say that because they make the relationships better. They try and do something fun because you know, adoption does get hard.

56:55I love that you have that support group that you have things like that to look forward to, to connect, to foster new relationships. And like you said in the very beginning, like adoption brings people together so quickly and you, you have maybe similar experiences and know, you just know something about them that the rest of the world outside the adoption community doesn't. Yeah. And you just click. I love that. It's awesome. Rachel, we have loved talking to you.

57:27Okay. It's been so amazing. Sometimes like when I get. Now, um, in a, in an effort to maybe foster connection, is there a specific place maybe on social media that if somebody hears this and they want to connect with you, is there a way that they can do that? Like do you have an Instagram or Facebook or something? Yes, I have both. I have Facebook and I'm okay saying my first and last name. If you guys are okay, my name is Rachel Kramer, like just R A C H E L K R A M E R.

57:58And I have my roommate makes fun of my picture. I have like black hair, but I'm sitting in an old lady pose, like with my hands on my legs, you know? And I forget what my picture is, but it's sweet and salty 22 88 for my Instagram. And also like if people reach out to you to want to talk, um, I can give you my cell phone number and email as well. And like, I give you all thumbs up for just giving, giving away my identity.

58:29Well, we'll protect as much as we can, but we'll, uh, we'll in our show notes for this episode, we'll put your link to your Instagram and, uh, and if people want to connect with you, they can follow you or message you there. And I want to let everyone know I'm an open book. I mean, I just love to be open and I, and I, and I crave, you know, connection with people. So I want to be that for other people as well. Thank you so much again for being with us and for sharing your thoughts.

58:59Thank you. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. And thank you again to Rachel for being so transparent and sharing her experiences with us.

59:29It's not always easy to talk about things that are so personal, but it's also important for us in the community to understand what raw emotion and feelings are so that we can try to grasp, um, how people are feeling. Yeah. And help each other. Right. I think it's just so important to make sure that we're listening to adoptees and their experiences and trying to build things better based on what we learn. Yeah. Rachel shared that one of her biggest hesitancies in the beginning was not knowing what the

60:02relationship would look like with the adoptive parents. And I think that as we normalize more open adoptions and can be more open and talk about what we hope for, what we want, um, what we're willing to give and take in, in relationships beforehand without any worry of people changing their minds, just being authentic and open from the very beginning. It will help that. Yeah.

60:32I think when we make sure that love is our guiding principle, that everything works out so much better, there's always a possibility that an expectant mom will change her mind and decide not to place her baby for adoption or she might not choose you. And that's her choice. And we should support that. And I think when we have genuine love for this mother, that helps us to see things from her side that helps us want her to have that empowerment to make her own decisions.

61:04So, yeah, I think that's important. I also think it's important as adoptive parents, um, Rachel talked about how she always felt guilty wanting to know more as an adoptee about her birth family. And she said she didn't feel like her adoptive parents made her feel guilty, but she still felt guilty. And I think that's something to be really aware of, right? Like what can we do to help our adoptees feel more comfortable sharing what they're feeling,

61:37sharing what they're needing and not worry about us because adoption is not about adoptive parents. It's about adoptees, right? What can we do to help our kids and the adoptees in our lives feel comfort and validation and whatever they're feeling? Yeah, I totally agree with that. Thank you again to Rachel. We really, really appreciate you and for your willingness to connect with us and to other people in the adoption community. Like we mentioned in the episode, we'll tag her Instagram and feel free to reach out to

62:09her and connect with her. We'll be back in two weeks with an episode where we'll be sharing different experiences on building long distance adoption relationships and open adoption. So we'll have a little panel here from a couple of different people on how they've done that in their lives. Thanks so much for listening.

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