Kim | My Story as a Gestational Carrier

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project, we're the Nelsons, I'm Lynette. And I'm Sean. In this episode we talked to Kim Perry again. This is the third time that we've had her on the podcast. And in today's episode she'll specifically be talking about her experience as a gestational carrier. Kim is an adoption professional, she is an adoptive mom, and also, as you'll find out in this episode, was a gestational carrier a few years ago. Yeah, we loved hearing her experience and just learning from her.

0:32So you can look for Kim's previous episodes on the podcast, they are number 32 and number 23. And they're also definitely worth a listen. We always love talking to Kim, she is one of our favorite people. And she is really great at just openly and honestly sharing how her experience looked and what things felt like. Opening up about these tender experiences that she had. Yeah, I love that she, the way that she speaks really paints a picture for what it may have felt like.

1:06And I think that that's totally true in today's episode as well. Today we are having a special double episode release. And so we have this episode with Kim and then we also have an episode with Alicia and Shane, who are foster parents and they'll be talking about their experience as foster parents who don't have other children in their family. So you can look to your download feed for our show and you should see two episodes for this week. So here's a bonus. Yeah, make sure you listen to both of them. It's our special present to you.

1:38We hope that you enjoy this episode with Kim Perry. We are here on the podcast with Kim Perry. Kim, welcome to the podcast. Hi, thank you. It's so good to have you here. I was going to say third time's the charm, right? Third time's the charm. Like, did we screw up the first two times? Is that what's going on here? No, definitely not.

2:08No, they were so, so good. Okay. It's an encore. Yes, this is an encore. You're here again. It's great. Yes. So today's episode is going to be a little bit different than most of the content that we've had in other episodes because we're talking about you being a gestational carrier. Yeah. And your experiences with that. Yeah. I'm really excited for this. So we're going to have you just start off by sharing your gestational carrier story, whatever you'd like to share. Okay. So at this point, if you've listened to previous episodes, we, you know that I have five children, two of whom were adopted and three are biological.

2:45And our family is 100% complete. So I don't know how exactly I started thinking about becoming a gestational carrier, but it was something that was sort of just dropped on my lap at one point. And I kind of had an idea in the back of my mind that it was something that I could do because I've had successful pregnancies and I knew I wasn't going to have any more pregnancies. I'd only had three. You know, that's not a huge number, at least in the area where we live.

3:15And so the idea was kind of in the back of my mind. And then as part of my work with Utah adoption specialists, I sit on a board of directors or outreach board for Utah Infertility Resource Center. And with that board, it's usually me and fertility doctors and fertility attorneys. And it's just, we meet three times a year and talk about the needs of the people who are facing infertility in the community. And I sat through one of the meetings one time, one of the attorneys who works in the infertility world and what works with third party reproduction was doing a presentation about gestational carrying and surrogacy and what the laws were in Utah and what some of the changes have been in recent legislative sessions.

3:55So while he was speaking, I just had this impression again that was like you, this is something you need to do. This is something you need to do. And again, I've had some weird things, weird ideas in my life and haven't followed just a normal course. So I kind of tucked it in the back of my mind, but I went home and I told my husband about it. And he again was like, oh, my goodness, like, what now? You know, what are you doing now? But I just said, I don't know. I feel like it's something I need to look into. I feel like it's something I need to get more information about. And he said, OK, I totally support that. I go ahead and get some more information about it.

4:26There's nothing wrong with knowing stuff. And so I took the next step and contacted a fertility clinic. I didn't know as a gestational carrier, the most common course is to use an agency. You look through an agency that does all this work for you. But I felt like I had enough connections in the infertility world through my adoption work that I just wanted to use those local connections and kind of work that way. So I reached out to one of the physicians that I on that same board of directors that we sit on and just said, hey, like, how do I get more information about this?

4:57So she scheduled me an appointment with a coordinator at the fertility clinic. And I went and met with this person and she gave me all the information about what I would need to do and how it would go. And I just was like, OK, this is really good information to know. But I'm not sure quite yet that I want to move forward. So I kind of sat on it for a few months. And then I just continued to feel like this is this is a good thing. And then my husband and I had more and more discussions about it. It's kind of a weird idea to go to your husband and say, hey, I think I'm going to carry someone else's baby.

5:29You know, how do you feel about that? It's kind of a weird kind of out there thing. And again, like I said in a previous episode to his credit, he will always figure things out for himself. So he took some time to think about it and came back to me and he said, I really don't think I could tell you, no, don't do this because this is a good thing. How could this be a bad thing? This is a good thing. This is a way that you could serve someone else and you could help another family grow. And you're all about helping families grow. So why would I prevent you or stop you from doing something of this nature?

6:03So I was like, OK, I have his full support. I'm going to move forward. So I talked to the fertility clinic again and said, I'm I'm a go. I want to start the process. Let's start medical clearance. Let's start all the process. So we started down that path and they initially connected me with a couple. And we have couples that come to us that are looking for a carrier. We'll connect you with someone that feels like the right fit. So they initially connected me to a couple.

6:33My husband and I met with them and they were local to us and it was everything that I wanted in that situation. I wanted a couple that was local to me so that we could have an ongoing relationship and a couple that had a need for it. So we met with this couple and we had a really good feeling about them. I felt really strongly that it was a good thing and that we should move forward. Long story short, that couple ended up backing out after I had gone through all of the medication clearances, the psych exam. You have to go, my husband and I had to go see a psychologist for a three hour appointment where they had to make sure I wasn't crazy.

7:09All sorts of stuff. We had taken all of those steps and then I stopped hearing from this couple and then I stopped hearing from the clinic. And I was like, what is going on? I felt so good about this. I felt like moving forward that this was the right thing to do. And eventually the couple called me and said, we feel like this isn't the right thing for us. We're going to go a different direction. And so that was actually really heartbreaking to me, really heartbreaking because I had felt so good about it.

7:40Good not only about the process, but good about this couple in particular. So I took some time to regroup and actually I posted something on social media that said basically, this was a really weird experience that I just went through. I felt really strongly about pursuing this particular path and it didn't work out. And in the end, it didn't work out. And I feel confused. Like I feel confused about why I felt so strongly about this when it wasn't meant to be. And at that point, I really felt like that was it. Like that was the end of the journey. And I was trying to figure out why, like make sense of this whole thing.

8:15So after I made that post, one of my couples that I've worked with in the adoption world, I'd known them for like 10 years. Like as long as I've known you guys, I've known these guys. And she messaged me and she said, hey, I saw your post on Facebook about this whole thing. You know, I had no idea that you were pursuing this. But my cousin just posted that she's looking for a gestational carrier. Would you talk to her? And I said, you know, I don't really know. I don't really I don't really think that I'm moving forward with this anymore.

8:47Like I think that I'm closing that door. I'm not sure. And she just said, just talk to her, just talk to her and see how you feel about it. And I said, OK, so I agreed to talk to her cousin. And I remember exactly where I was when she first called me. I was coming home from a home study and she called that her cousin called. I'm pretty careful about using their names on like social media and stuff, so I'll call them J and J. Those are their initials. So, J, she called me the wife. And I was driving home from a home study and we started talking and we talked and we talked and we talked.

9:22We talked for like hours and she shared some of her heartbreak with me. She shared with the journey that they'd been on and they'd been through a lot of losses and they'd been through a really hard point, a really hard time getting to the point that they were. And she was a little bit leery as well. She was like, I'm just not really sure. You know, this is the path that we want to take. And I said, hey, me too. I'm not really sure that this is the path that I want to take either. I just I just don't know. At the end of our conversation, we agreed that we would just continue to talk and not have any, you know, promises to one another or anything like that.

9:56So we continued to talk. And the more we talked, the more I felt comfortable with them. And my husband and I again met them in person. We went to their home. They invited us to their home, which was the first time we met them, which I think was a really big thing. Like it showed that they wanted us to be involved in their lives. And, yeah, we met them in their home. And at the end of that dinner, I felt like, OK, I can move forward with this. I feel again like this is the right thing. And this crazy, crooked path took me to this destination of this particular couple.

10:29And it's not coincidental that we both happen to know the same person, her cousin, who's my long term, longtime client and friend, and that we both had been through a lot of heartbreak and that we both posted on social media, you know, literally within a week of each other, saying that we were looking for this particular path to go down, them on one end and me on the other end, obviously. And so we move forward from there. And I we just agreed with each other that we would continue to move forward as long as it felt right for both of us.

10:59And it did. It continued to feel right. So we took steps in that direction. We ultimately they had two embryos. We transferred their first embryo and it did not take. And that was devastating because we all felt like so confident that this was going to happen and that this is going to be the right the right embryo, you know, that this was this was their better embryo and everything like that. So we took some time to regroup after that transfer knowing that they just had the one embryo left. And then we did the second transfer.

11:31And that time I was not nearly as confident because of what had happened the time before. But luckily, that time it did take. And so I got pregnant with their baby, the baby girl. And in September, twenty nineteen is when that happened, transfer was. And so, yeah, went through the whole pregnancy. They were involved the entire time. They're fairly local to me. So they were able to come to all my doctor's appointments and things like that until COVID hit. Near the end of my pregnancy. And they were not allowed to come anymore to doctor's visits and things like that.

12:04And it was super heartbreaking. So they could be on like FaceTime and whatever. But it just felt kind of weird because this was their baby. You know, they should be allowed to come to the doctor's appointments for their baby. But so, yes, I went into labor on May 3rd, the evening of May 3rd, 2020 on my own. I had never gone into labor on my own and I was going to do it with all my kids. This time I went to labor on my own, which was kind of a crazy experience, but it was kind of middle of the night time, which I think was a huge blessing for us because

12:37I they I also delivered at the hospital where I work. I mentioned in a previous podcast that I work at a hospital. So I was able to pull some strings. Plus the fact that it was the middle of the night, they were allowed to come to the hospital, which we didn't actually know if they were going to be able to be there, which would have been terrible, would have been so devastating for them not to be able to see their the birth of their child. So, yeah, I went into labor in the middle of the night, so they were able to be there and delivered their baby that next morning. And it was one of the most incredible experiences of my life, honestly.

13:07So surreal, so amazing, so beautiful, heartbreaking in some senses, but just the most incredible feeling to be able to take this baby and transfer her to the arms of her parents, who had been waiting for so long for this little girl and had been just so heartbroken for so many years. And then to see this come to fruition, just as it's been, it was a miracle for sure. And just I will never forget it. It was just so beautiful. That's great. Do you guys have a relationship now still?

13:39We do have a relationship. So that was something that was really important to me. And not that it's it's obviously not my baby, it's their full biological baby. And I don't feel like she's my baby in any way, shape or form. But I carried her around for it was actually eight months to the day of embryo transfer to her birth was eight months. And so obviously, I have a connection with this baby, not the same as I have with my children. But I care about her for sure more than most other kids out there in the world.

14:09And I wanted to know how she was doing. I think it would have been really devastating for me to just have a baby and then have no contact and not know what happened or how she's doing. So we've had a really great relationship. Her parents have been fantastic with me and they send me I mean, her mom sends me pictures probably every other day on average, still like we're 18 months out now. And she still sends me pictures very, very regularly. And we've gotten together, I would say on average, like every other month or so, which is a lot, you know, for, you know, the relationship, it's ebbs and flows.

14:41Sometimes we're together more often. Sometimes we're not. The fact that I go out and home studies all the time is really great, because if I'm in their area, I just stop by like, hey, here I am. I don't have to have, we don't have to have a planned visit. It's kind of like an open door policy. You can come whenever you want to. And so I go over to their house and I'll spend 15 or 20 minutes or half an hour with them. And then I go on to my next visit. And that's great because I just get to see them and, you know, see how they're doing. And we have a fantastic, really special relationship. That's really cool. So now, would you say that your husband and kids also have a relationship with them and with baby?

15:15Yeah, absolutely. They less so than me, obviously, because I'm the one doing all the texting and getting the pictures and whatever. And I've seen them more frequently because of what I just said with home visits and stuff. I'll just stop by and talk to them and see them. But they've come to our house several times for dinner and we've been to their house and we've been to the park for meetups with our kids to play and all sorts of different things. So my kids are very familiar with them and they're very familiar with my children. And we all spent a lot of time together too. So what's some of the, I mean, this is a little bit foreign to me, but is there like specific

15:48language used, like an adoption language? We have a lot of really specific language. What's some of the language used in surrogacy or gestational carrying? Yeah. So as a surrogate, it's actually a gestational carrier is the preferred term because a surrogate, a traditional surrogate is someone who uses their own egg in the process. And since I didn't use my own egg, I was a gestational carrier. So basically essentially just the vessel to get the baby here.

16:20She's fully biologically related to her parents. So during the process, when you're the carrier, you're the gestational carrier, they're called the intended parents is the proper term. Obviously now that she's born, they're just the parents and I'm the gestational carrier still, so other than that, I don't think there's really any other language around it. So how does the world of surrogacy and gestational carrying differ from the adoption world? Yeah. So I think that this experience has been really good for me in my professional work because

16:53I've been able to, I will never ever compare myself to a birth mother ever, because that is their biological child. They are choosing to relinquish that child. I went into this process knowing that this was the purpose. I was getting pregnant for somebody else to take their baby home, different things. But I do think some of the feelings that I went through afterwards, your body, you had a baby and you don't have a baby near you afterwards.

17:23And so there's some adjustment with that. And that was a really tough period for me. There was still that hormonal stuff going on and a lot of feelings and emotions that I logically knew, but my body didn't seem to catch up as quickly that like, there's no baby nearby. You just gave birth and that's really hard. So it's been helpful for me in my counseling with birth parents to help them understand what are some of those things that they might face after the birth of their child

17:54to a much larger degree than I did. But it's been really eye-opening for me. So like physiologically, you can help them process because you've been through that separation physically, right? Yes. Emotionally, it's different. Yes. And even emotionally, I went through an emotional process that was very, very difficult after this baby was born because I didn't prepare myself well enough for what some of those feelings might be. So even that, again, to a much larger extent, I feel like I'm much better prepared to help

18:24birth parents recognize after birth is going to be rough. And here are some of the things you might face and some of the things you might feel to a very large and deep degree. And I can see it in them now. And when I'm counseling with them, I recognize that pain and I can see the depth of it because I think I was scratching the surface of it a little bit. And so I think that that has made me maybe a little more empathetic and a little, hopefully a better counselor to them as they're going through that process. How would you say your expectations lined up with reality of the whole thing?

18:58Maybe the things that you did or didn't expect? Like adoption, you know, when we went through, we went through this in our last podcast episode, I went into my first adoption experience with my daughter for thinking that it would be just really fantastic butterflies and rambles all the time. I thought that about the gestational carrier process, too. I thought that this would be just a really wonderful and beautiful and so wonderful and beautiful experience that it wouldn't be painful in any way. And that is not the truth. The process was painful for me on the back end.

19:29You know, there was a lot of things that were difficult and I did not expect to have as many emotions about it as I did. But some of those things, and that's something I'm really vocal about again on my social media. And as I'm talking to other people who are going through this process, I want them to be better prepared than I was. I want them to recognize that they may have some difficulties in those first weeks and months after the baby is born. And they might have some emotions that take them by surprise. One thing that I was not prepared for and I wish that I had done differently is after

20:03the baby was born, she went immediately to her parents, which is great, of course. That's their her parents. And they spent a lot of time in the hospital bonding and spending time with her. We had a legal contract, which you have to have in a situation like this. And in that contract, it said that I should spend an hour alone with the baby in the hospital. And when we had this contract written up, it's just kind of a standard contract, you know, that a lot of people have in this situation. I remember reading that and thinking like, well, that's dumb.

20:33Like, I don't need to spend time with their baby in the hospital. Like, that's stupid, you know? So when the time came around and I gave birth to this baby, I was on such a high, it was so euphoric and to be watching this family in just bliss, it was so amazing to see all of that happening that I completely neglected my own, like checking in on my own feelings and my own thoughts to say, like, how are you feeling about this? Do you need to see the baby? Do you need to spend some time with the baby? And I did see her in the hospital, but it was with a group of people in the room, her parents,

21:06my husband, everybody around. And I spent very little time with her. And her parents did offer me that time. And they said, we'll go, you know, to lunch or whatever. You take her for an hour. And I was like, oh, no, absolutely not. You take her. She's your baby. I want you to have a magical experience. And after I got home from the hospital, I recognized that that was not the right choice for me. I needed to see and spend time with this baby to understand what was happening, you know, to process this whole thing and to say, hello, nice to meet you, baby, that I carry around

21:39for eight months and also goodbye. You're moving on to another thing. You're going home with your parents. I did not have time to process any of that. So it was really, it kind of equated to like whiplash. It was like, she's with me for all these months and everything's great. Babies are really, you know, active when you're pregnant with them. They kick you. They have, she had hiccups all the time. I had never had any of my biological kids, never had hiccups, but this baby had hiccups all the time. So like, I remember those little things about her.

22:09And then all of a sudden I go home and there's no baby and there's no her. And I didn't even know who she was. Like, I didn't even get to look at her and spend time with her and say, hey, this is who I am. This is why I did what I did. It made me emotional, but like, good luck to you. Have a great life with your family. This is why I did what I did for you. I didn't have that time with her and it was super painful for me afterwards. And so that's something that I coach people or tell people that are going into a similar situation to be mindful of.

22:39You just, you need, your mind needs that time to process it. Luckily her parents, like I said, are fantastic. And I, two weeks or so in, I reached out to them and just said, listen, like, I don't think I'm going to be able to move forward until I actually spend some time with her alone. So they were very kind and they brought her to my home and I spent two hours with her. They left. They have an older son. They took their son out to do something. And my, I kicked my entire family out of the house and said, you guys go to the park, go do something. I just need to sit and look at this baby and talk to her and tell her what's going on.

23:13And so that time was really healing for me. That leads right into this next question. So that's some advice, but what other advice would you give others who are considering this route, both being a gestational carrier or building their family through a gestational carrier? Yeah. So I think from the gestational carrier side, I think number one is again, just like recognizing the, your own needs in the process, recognize that you might have some emotions and how are you going to handle those? How are you working out a plan with the parents of the baby as well?

23:44Now, not everybody's like me. I have a friend, a very dear friend that was a gestational carrier as well. And she was much less emotional in her process than I was. So everybody's different. So not to say that you're going to react the same way I do, but I think it's better to be over-prepared than under-prepared just in case. Right. So, yeah, recognize those things and recognize your needs in the process and communicate clearly with the family about them. I think another thing that I wish I had been better prepared about, and I know a lot more about it now, is something that I won't go into too many details about this because it's

24:18not the point of this, but I wish I'd been better prepared for the fact that I may lose my own fertility over this process. And that did happen to me. I ended up needing an emergency hysterectomy three weeks after I delivered this baby. And that was not something that anyone had ever really sat down with me and said, this is a real possibility. Like, this is a real possibility. And it's not that my husband and I planned on having any more kids. I told you we weren't, you know, we're not having any more kids, but just still the fact

24:49that that happened the way it did without my really having ever wrapped my head around the fact that it could happen was really, really difficult. And as I've talked to other people who have been gestational carriers, what I've seen in gestational carriers, what I had happen to me is not uncommon. A lot of times it doesn't end up in a full hysterectomy, but there's complications a lot of times that come from IVF and even with surrogacy. And so I think people need to be really aware of those things and aware of what are potential

25:21things that could happen and being prepared for it, just in case. Oh, I was just going to ask if they offered counseling, if there's any trauma counseling or anything like that that goes with it? No, so no. So we had to do that psych evaluation before we started the entire process, but that was it. That was the only thing we ever were offered or given. And that was more of just like a mental health clearance. So it was really more like me taking tests to make sure I'm not a psychopath, I guess, like personality profiles and stuff like that. But no, there was no there was no counseling offered.

25:52I did do counseling after I delivered this baby for the multitude of reasons that I've talked about, but that I just sought out on my own and paid for on my own. That was just something that I thought was necessary for me and my mental health. OK, so on the flip side of the question, the couples using the gestational carrier, I think just listening to my story or anyone else's stories and recognizing the things that they can do for their gestational carrier, I've given the intended parents this advice over and over and over again, insist that the carrier hold the baby in the hospital

26:26and spend time in the hospital. Like, that's one thing that you can definitely insist on. Even if she says no, just say, nope, we're going, you know, we're going to go to lunch, we'll be back in an hour. Hold the baby for me. You know, I don't think anyone's going to absolutely flat out refuse. I think it's tricky because they have emotions going into this, too, like completely acknowledging that this is hard for them. Like, how hard would it be to know that someone else out there is carrying your baby? And that's the way that you have to go to grow your family. That's that's horrible. And that's devastating. Of course, they want to be the ones pregnant with their own baby.

26:58And so there's a lot of loss on that end. So I think putting it obviously your own feelings and your own emotions are very important and making sure that those are I would recommend counseling for them as well to make sure that those those feelings, they have a safe place to process those feelings so that they can also be emotionally available to their gestational carrier. Like, you know, it goes both ways. They you have to support each other. Yeah, just recognizing that there will be emotions involved for sure. So I'm thinking of this from maybe our adoptive parent perspective,

27:29but as an adoption professional, if you are working with a couple who's considering adoption or if gestational carriers an option, how you counsel them, how do you work through like which decision to make? That's a great question. I think everyone's individual and what they're looking for in a situation. Some people feel really strongly about having a biological child and I can't fault them for that. That's totally OK. So if that's the case, you know, they can move towards gestational carrying. Also, we have to acknowledge that adoption is not a it's not a given.

28:03It's not a guarantee. There's no, you know, there's not a promise that you're going to end up with a baby. Here, I also can't say that for, you know, gestational carrying or IVF. You may have no success with that, too. But I think there's a stronger chance if you go down that path, if everyone's cleared medically and stuff, that you may end up with a baby at the end of it. I think with adoption numbers, the way that they're going these days, you know, sometimes people I think people should be encouraged to explore whatever options they have because adoption is not as even as common as it used to be.

28:33We talked about that before as well. So if you have another option and you can explore it, try it. That said, surrogacy, gestational carrying is very, very expensive. You know, there's so much that goes into it medically. And most of the time, gestational carriers are compensated for carrying the baby. And that can be costly, you know, so that that may be out of the reach for some people who may otherwise consider it. So you just have to look at your own individual circumstances and decide

29:05what's most important, what path is most feasible. Can we make it work? Anything else that you would share with our audience when it comes to gestational carrying that maybe we haven't touched on? It's important for a gestational carrier to know what she wants out of the experience before going into it. My friend that I referenced earlier carried for a couple out of country. And so what she was looking for in her situation was completely different than me. She was okay going in knowing that she would probably never see them again, honestly.

29:39You know, like they shared the baby, they left the country, returned to their home country and they keep in touch. She gets pictures and stuff every so often. But it's nowhere near the level of relationship that I have with the couple that I carry for. And that works for me and that works for her. You know, so it's individual completely. I, on the other hand, absolutely wanted someone who was local to me so that I could have that relationship. I didn't want to carry for someone who I was never going to see again. That was really an important aspect of the decision for me. So just knowing what those things are.

30:10Maybe you've touched on this, you know, looking back at this experience in 10 years from now or 20 years from now, what do you think at this point, what are the highlights of your experience? I would say, I mean, I've been asked before, like, do you regret doing this? Because my particular experience ended in a lot of heartbreak and a lot of pain for me, a lot of really difficult things. And I always say that I will never, ever, ever regret bringing a human life into the world. I think this baby is so precious and she's so important to her family.

30:43And I can see just the joy that she brings them. So I will never, ever, ever regret making the decision that I made, even at the cost of a lot of the pain and heartache for myself, which is obviously still present. Like, as I'm sitting here talking to you guys, it brings up feelings for me because they will always be there. You know, they will always be there to some extent. I've done a lot of therapy to help me through some of the hard parts of it. But I will always be present. But I think I will always look back on this experience and recognize that I did something for a family that they couldn't do for themselves.

31:22And I think it's probably one of the things that I will always be most proud of in my life, even though it cost me a lot. So sweet. Thank you so much, Kim, for sharing. And thank you for being vulnerable and just being raw with us. Yeah, absolutely. Only for you guys. And everyone that listens to this. Oh, and everyone else that listens to this. But only you would answer all these questions for. I'm just kidding. Well, thank you again.

31:52You guys are the best. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Open Mind. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Open Adoption Project. And a big thanks to Kim for sharing her amazing experience with us. Make sure that you also check out our other episode that's dropped today. It's Alicia and Shane and their experience as foster parents.

32:24We thought that these would be really good episodes to release together because they're helpful for any people who are considering different options for growing their family and are just trying to weigh these different choices that they're making. And we really loved all that Kim shared and all that Alicia and Shane shared. So be sure to listen to them, too. Thanks again for being a listener of The Open Adoption Project podcast. If you have a moment and the show has been impactful for you and you feel like you're learning,

32:54please jump onto whatever platform you're on and give our show a rating. You could drop a couple of thoughts as well. That would be really helpful. Again, we've mentioned this before, but the more comments, the more ratings that the show gets, the better it will be able to reach those who are looking for podcasts about adoption. So please go and do that for us and we'll keep giving you episodes. Yeah, you can find us on our website at openadoptionproject.org and we'll be back next week. Thank you.

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