Nate and Kim | Willing to be an Advocate

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. We're the Nelsons. I'm Sean. And I'm Lynette. Today we are excited to share an interview with Nate and Kim who are adoptive parents. They have a child with special needs and they also talk about navigating open adoption relationships with families that also might have special needs. I think that it will be really easy for you to see and hear how much love and how caring these two individuals are. And I think there's a lot that we can learn from them. So we hope that you enjoy this episode with Nate and Kim.

0:42All right. Well, we are now on the podcast with Kim and Nate. Thank you guys so much for being with us. Yeah. Happy to be here. Great. Well, to get started, can you just share a little bit about your family? Just help us get to know you a little bit. So Nate works in IT security. That's what he has his degrees in. And he, I work for the state. And so as much as I understand it, his job is he hacks with permission and prevents hackers with malicious intent.

1:16Yeah, that's what I get. I'm just like, hey, I can't get the printer to work. Can you help me? And then I am fortunate, I get to be a stay at home mom. So, and we have a newly turned five year old, and he's very excited that he's now five because he thought I came with a lot of increased opportunities. So, and then we got a puppy in April and that's been its own adventure. So he was supposed to be between like 30 and 40 pounds and he's nine months old and he's like 60 pounds.

1:53So yeah, that's been kind of a whirlwind. And then our son has chromosomal deletion. And so we got that diagnosis just over a year ago so it's just kind of been the fun game of figuring out what are like toddler attributes and what is due to like developmental delays with said special needs and that so we've had lots of fun doing IEPs and all that kind of stuff with school and where to go to kindergarten and all that next year so

2:29fun. Not fun, fun, not fun. Yeah. It's important to figure out right we have to do the best that we can for our kids and we were in an hour long meeting at school today with principals and teachers just trying to make best make a good plan for our kids needs help. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard. What do you guys like to do in your spare time or what are some of your hobbies as a family or individuals. So we are big like outdoors fans and like the boys more so than me, but like our little boy would like live outside if we'd let them like he just wants to be outside all the time and he is like, we're a little more introverted and he's the total opposite

3:10like he came with no stranger danger like if you are willing to have fun he's all there, like he had like best friend cashiers at the grocery store and I'm like, you can't send us home with candy every time like that. And we like camping and naturely into gotten into bow hunting and such and doing that, and then like his new pandemic hobby is woodworking. So I'm like, great, you have like 14 million like projects around the house that I'm ready for him to do.

3:46But I was like our timetables aren't always lining up. Yeah. That's the story of life. Why don't you jump in and just share a little bit about your experience and your story with adoption. Yeah, I'm like, I'll take this one. And then all these are harder questions for me. So Nate and I met. I had just done a first year at BYU and Nate has like 400 first cousins, and they're all pretty local. So they had like a big cousin group date and I worked with his cousin at the hospital and so she asked for a girlfriend eight so we met on

4:27a blind date and dated like forever, like 15 whole days and got engaged and got married a few months later. And so that was like a whirlwind that's kind of like the title of our book. I feel like whirlwinds there, whirlwinds there. But so we got married and then we, when it was time to start our family just had no luck and found ourselves doing like the whole infertility circuit and that and just nothing ever found out there and we had gone and had the first few meetings

5:02with family services and that and weren't sure if it was the right fit and not and so then a couple years later we kind of circled back to him and got approved and everything with them and then we just didn't have any luck with matching, and we had met with several different birth moms and had kind of a bunch of highs and lows, different stages of placement and everything just kind of falling through we had one where we drove down to New Mexico to pick up a little baby girl and ended up being a scam.

5:41So we came to, we drove to Mexico and back and like 20 hours and so I said, do not recommend but so, and that and then we got to the point where, like, I said we're getting close to 30, I was like, hit my 30th birthday and I was like you know like we've tried for a long time like this is, this is good like we can't there's still lots of joy in the world and there's a lot of different and things that can still be a part of our story and so we kind of just decided to close that chapter and we had done our foster care classes, and all but got approved with them and I just didn't feel like

6:24that was a good fit for us either. And so, we were looking at lots to start building a house and all that, and then I decided to go back to school and everything and then I think I was in school like what six, seven weeks, maybe. And then we got a phone call one evening, and Nate got the call from his mom about a couple wanting to meet us, and Nate was on his way home from a hunting trip with his boss, so I had like a dead deer in the back of the truck.

6:55And all this and I'm like in yoga pants and like a messy bed and that and we go over to his mom's and she actually has a couple, and they're, they ended up having their baby four weeks early. And so he was just like this teeny tiny little nine day old guy and we sat and met with them and they were looking to place at that point, and they have both of them have lost their moms, when they were younger, and don't have much, if any, family support and not a lot of like perspective employment opportunities and things like that and they just

7:35were realizing with such a new little guy that they were kind of in over their heads, and they actually asked us that night, if we would consider adopting him, so I was like there we were. Amazon Prime. Yeah, we could order everything that we needed. Yeah, for the doorstep. And that's how I think a lot of our neighbors are like, are you guys adopting like we see all this stuff on your part just like yeah, yeah, that's going. So, yeah, it was kind of like zero to baby in like a week, so that was crazy.

8:11It's crazy. So, awesome. So can you tell us about how you found your son, and how you guys were matched with his birth parents. Yes, so we actually had kind of stopped the whole process like we had figured out how to do it. Like we had figured, like we gave it a good try and that and then about so we were still like home studies certified and had all of our. Can we just decide. We really good aunts and uncles, like because we had to babysit. I have lots of nieces and nephews so we're babysitting all the time we're like, that's what we're going to do that's what we're going to do.

8:49And so we kind of felt like let's move on, let's get to the next steps because we've always been holding out for kind of starting our family. Yeah, and then, and we had a phone call one evening from Nate's mom to come and meet with this couple. They had had their little boy, four weeks early, and like totally unexpected she just happened to go into labor. And anytime in the NICU no oxygen or nothing. He just happened to come four weeks early, and his birthday falls, three days before his birth mom's. And so, for his birth mom's birthday, Nate's mom and sister went down to visit them and wish her a

9:36happy birthday and see how baby was doing and everything. And when she got there she could kind of just tell that things weren't the best like he wasn't thriving like they were having a lot of struggles and they have no, like familial support, or any kind of thing like that. And so, Nate's mom invited them and baby to come and stay with them.

10:14Definitely, and, Nate's mom, I mean she had nine kids like she's, she's just so good with that, and with having worked with special needs with Nate's sister and having known our son's birth mom for so long. That was just kind of like a natural. I don't know, she was just like a super nurturer. And so to just say like hey come stay with me. Like, I'll show you the ropes like tips and tricks all that kind of thing. And so they went and spent some, I think a week or so up there and then they were on their way home from our son's first week checkup with the doctor and birth dad said to my mother in law he's like, I, I don't think we can do this like I don't think we have

11:01the capabilities, and there's just too much we don't know and it's just, it's just too hard. And so he asked if she thought that they could do an adoption placement at this point. So, and so she said you know there, you can go on like adoption.com and find profiles and that like, you can just start that way looking through and seeing like what's out there, and that, or, and then she mentioned that like Nate and I were still certified

11:31and all that, and they had had a lot of interaction that week with like Nate's siblings and such like we hadn't been over there because Nate had been out of town. And so they like seeing that it was like a close knit family and I mean your parents pretty much had an open door policy like, I mean their pantry was like Disneyland is a grandkids. So it's just like, they like seeing that a side of things. And so I think it kind of made kind of like a segue for us to come over and visit with them and have them know kind of like what our side of the family looks like,

12:08and then being together and knowing that like, if they did decide to go with us that that we had this familial support and, you know, potential cousins and all that like things that they didn't. So, so you got introduced, and what is it what did it look like when you met, and from the time like you met to the time where a decision was made. The decision is a little bit different because baby was already there. They had already kind of tried parenting but realized that it wasn't maybe the possibility for them so what did that timeline look like for you guys.

12:45Half hour, half hour and then they says well, we'd like to ask you if you would adopt our son. And then it was like we would. After that it was like we came over every day. I already knew the social worker that was doing our home study certification so she was willing to come be a social worker for the adoption we already had a lawyer that we had met at some adoption fairs. And so we just kind of tried to line things up within that six days that we had will ended up being six days between when they told us, and when we could

13:23actually take him home. So yeah, whirlwind welcome to parenthood. Yes, yes. I was like I don't even think we got home that night and I was like, oh my gosh we have all this baby stuff and we don't even have like, better eggs in the fridge because we just haven't spent any time at home that week. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think during that six days until actually happened like we went in front of, like, had the paper signed and everything we're still like, this actually going to happen is this actually real because we've had those

13:53health placements and things like that. Did you guys talk with your son's birth parents before papers were signed and everything about what your relationship would look like after. Yes, so we talked about that a lot with them. And one of the things that. So, our son's birth mom has some special needs herself. And one of the, the main, like, I don't know if symptoms, but one of the main ways it manifests is she actually does a lot better

14:24with like non verbal communication. She does a lot like she would much prefer to like text, or like have things written down than like a face to face. And so we actually sat down with them and she wanted to know how like the open adoption and things would look like we made a calendar list of events and things were like hey these are some of the fun things we do each month like, what do you guys want to be a part of, like, what do we want to make sure is included with you guys like she really liked the idea

14:57of like birth mother's day. So that Saturday and me and that was one thing she was like I really want to make sure I see him on that day. And, or like whether it was like making sure she got a seam in his Halloween costume, or doing like, I remember we did tacos for like the first birthday that birth dad had after placement and some of those things, and I think that really helped her was to have like this calendar of events of things, not only to look forward to, but I also think where she really got to fill part of like

15:29kind of establishing that first year like because that's all like the traditions you start up is like that first year. I think that's awesome. I love that. Yeah, as we've talked to some birth mothers and then those that are involved with our family. Some had mentioned like yeah, when I knew that there was like a date on the calendar that we would see each other again. It made my decision and my choice, just a little bit easier. It's a it's obviously unable to comprehend the decision that birth parents make but knowing that there's already something else planned to have that relationship continue.

16:05It's helpful. And we kind of mark out like things about once a month that we were going to see them that first year. Cool. That's a great idea. I love that. Yeah, so with you guys finding each other through family members right. How did that play into what your adoption looks like today like with your sister, being good friends with your son's birth mom. What does that look like now.

16:37If you get made it feel. I mean, and I mean we have no other like adoption, compared to but it felt a little more natural like we had gone when Nate sister graduated high school. Well, that's when I sense birth mom graduated high school to like being there like for her high school graduation or like I don't remember how many times like we had dropped her off home like when she'd been over hanging out with Nate's little sister and like their Facebook friends with, I mean half of your siblings and aunts and uncles and not too so it just seems like a very.

17:10I don't know like they almost seem more related than I think another set of birth parents but because it's like people ask us all the time. Oh, how are you know, how are they doing, and that seems more commonplace, I think, then I might expect in a different set of circumstances. So, right. And I think they felt more comfortable asking for certain things whether it's like, hey this meetup time isn't going to work can we switch and do this or can we have a different location where they had been in Nate's parents home so many times prior, and

17:44like had gone to school with your sister for so long. So, awesome. So you guys knew each other to before baby was born. I would say like more casual acquaintance on our part, but like birth mom and dad, like, pretty integral your sister. So, I've known to the for lots of years, maybe kind of fast forward, it's been five years. How has that relationship changed, or what does it kind of look like today versus the very beginning.

18:18I think so just kind of naturally spaced out a little bit more like we had coming almost daily text and phone calls and things like that for the first little while. And then of course like with visits and such like things spaced out just out of necessity like with coven and things like that, but I mean thank goodness for like they really enjoy seeing him like consume and getting that like live action like reaction to their

18:48Christmas present for him, and I seen him interact with that and I think that's been good. We have always had more communication from birth mom than birth dad, but like, they're always so good to see like happy birthday, you know, and things like that and they always want to know. Well, she always likes to know what's going on with the puppy to, but like the what new things, and our sons doing in school and, especially with like some of his like health prognosis is and things like that, they've taken a keen

19:23interest in some of those birth mom, much more so than birth dad. So, what would you say are some of the challenges and blessings that accompany being adoptive parents. Challenges or doctor visit. When they're like, oh so, is this genetic or like, I don't know. I was like, we don't have a whole lot of backstory there, so I think that would definitely be a challenge. And I think making sure that.

19:53So we have some family members who are super great with adoption and using, you know, proper adoption etiquette and terminology and that's a challenge. And then we have some who are just who are not, and like they just haven't been in the mix of things enough where I think they realize what is and isn't okay. And so I think sometimes it's a little tedious to remind them of this, you know, we actually say he was adopted not he is adopted it's part of his story it's not his whole entire story and things like that or just like our son has a different

20:31nationality and racial makeup than we do. And so making sure that we're using appropriate language and joking in an appropriate way. We've had to correct family members, quite a bit. And as Nate's family as his dad's gotten remarried and there's been like a new mix of people coming in, making sure that we have some of those ground rules, I think established. And also a good thing in the same is helping people be educated right. It's been kind of nice to kind of be, guess that place where they can come and ask questions, you know, because sometimes you can see that as genuine questions that they want to answer,

21:12and they're like, I just don't know how this works. You guys be willing to talk about it, you know. So I think it's just, it gives us an opportunity to talk about our son too, which is always great too. So I think that's one big blessing that way. I would even go as far and say like, with our journey with infertility and with working so much with the special needs community that we are doing now, it has made us, I think a little more mindful of what we say, and how we react to other situations because you just never know with people

21:49but I'm like, just making sure that we're using like upbeat and positive language because it's one thing to say, I don't know how to say what I'm saying, but like I feel like we're more cognizant of what we say and how it may be received. Does that make sense? Like we had like one sister and I in particular we're just always be like, I hate being pregnant. And like that was so hard to hear for like a decade, you know, but it's like some of those things that I think were a little more cognizant of like, what we say or like when people complain about their kids and I'm like, I know that's human nature like I'm sure everyone does it. But I think it's been a little different on our part because we're like, oh man yeah today was rough but oh my gosh we're still so glad that we get out of him, you know.

22:36I love that great perspective. So what are some of the unique challenges of being special needs parents. Because this chromosome deletion is so rare. I think that comes a huge challenge and it almost makes me wonder if birth mom actually has the same chromosome deletion because they don't really know. So, yeah, I think that special needs have never fit into like any set classification like not on the spectrum, not like, and so, yeah, it makes us wonder if that's what she's got. But I think it has been, we kind of played the back and forth along a lot with our son

23:20and we, for a long time just had like the umbrella diagnosis. Well it's not this or that so we'll just put it in this category for now. Oh it's just developmental delays. Oh it's just, you know, just low muscle tone. Yeah, and then to get the official diagnosis, right after he turned four. So, yeah, I think that's kind of where people expected us to be like kind of devastated and heartbroken, but it's actually opened a lot of doors having the diagnosis, and like Nate was saying it's super rare there's one academic paper out there on it.

23:54So, like, okay, well, like, six or so people in it, and their cases are way more severe than our sons compared like where he is compared to where the people that were studied are. He's like, light years ahead. Yeah, he's like beyond the genius level compared to where they're at. Right, so it gave us perspective that way to right to say, you know what, things could be a lot worse. He's doing really great for what, what we found out.

24:28I think it's given us the realization that we need to be not only like the experts on his condition, but the advocates to you, because it's one thing to say yeah we need an IP at school but to say, no we specifically need these provisions made for him. And just because he struggles with speech doesn't mean that like his cognitive skills are struggling, like he may not be able to tell you the answer, but it doesn't mean he doesn't know the answer, if that makes sense.

25:01So, and I mean having a diagnosis gets a lot of insurance. Like, out of the way, as far as like getting approvals and not like actually having that. So, and I mean, so we've been in like PT OT speech like we started it, he was four months old when he first started PT. And we've made some like really good friends and such through that so.

25:33But good. So it sounds like at this point I mean, ongoing new like learning new challenges and solutions to some things that he may struggle with becoming more and more educated and then being part of a community has has really helped to. Know for sure. I think it's just realizing that our son we don't need to make him conform to like societal standards, like he has.

26:04Like he loves letters and numbers like he's beyond age level skill wise with letters and numbers like that's just like his passion. And so watching him like thrive and do so well with that academic portion, when you see like, yes, we're very behind. We're not riding a bike yet. But at the same time, we're off the charts in one end, but yes we struggle on this and like seeing those unique successes has really been, I think, fun, honestly.

26:39I think it's hopeful for her. Yeah, I think it's easy to get hung up on what's not going right. Right. So, being able to see those successes those tiny wins and be able to say yeah, he is doing really well here. That's okay. Maybe can you share some thoughts about navigating an open adoption that includes some special needs and how you've kind of approached that. Yeah, so we're both our sons birth parents have some, like either emotional struggles or special needs themselves and then our son having special needs, I think there's been almost an increase for me of like compassion with how we not only deal with birth

27:26parents but how we speak about them with others like I feel extremely like protective, I'm gonna like get emotional. But I just think like where we talked about like our sense birth mom she does a lot better with like texting or pictures with a message that she's attached versus like face to face conversation like I want to make sure that like she's presented to others in a way that like magnifies her because she, when she's having a hard time like she'll reach out and say, you know, I know I made the right choice

28:00and I'm struggling today, and just to have like, just the thought that she would want to hear from me it's like such an honor because they feel like she's just like the most amazing person and for her to have some more limited capabilities, but to reach outside of herself and like, put this baby first it's just incredible to me. What do you wish that you could tell yourself at the beginning of your adoption journey. Sleep while you can.

28:31I'm like I think was what we've noticed with our son is that like, he'll have like months where he doesn't make much progress with a lot of a special needs. And then he'll take like a week or two and just like kind of skyrocket in certain areas. It's like, oh that's so great so like but going through that at the beginning, like thinking, hey, like, we're wondering, is he ever going to walk right. Is he ever going to do some of these things, but just kind of be patient be know that it will happen in his time.

29:07Yeah, I love that like patience in, you know, hoping to adopt waiting to adopt through failed adoptions to failed placements through maybe the ups and downs of parenting that's a really good attribute to try to embody as you go through that kind of a follow up to your story from the time you first got approved to the time to the time you adopted your son. What how long was that and what were some of the bumps in the road that you had that maybe would have discouraged you or made the process more difficult.

29:43So I got approved 2011 and then Drew's born in 2016 so a little over five years there. And I think some of the things that were rough foster care classes, like the night or the week that you do like the trauma classes like that was rough. I think that scared me away for a long time because I was just like, how can I

30:14like help them navigate through when they are so undeserving of like the hurt and such that's come to them and like how can I help them through that and how do I dare even try because I wouldn't want to make anything worse and I think that it's a lot to take in. But at the same time, it's like if not you then who, because, like I know the CPS had been called on our son and his birth parents now I don't know if it was while they're still in the hospital or whatnot.

30:48So prior to them having made an adoption plan, and I'm just like working through with them. And the things I just think there's so much like lack of education with what like DCFS does, and the foster system and not that I think it's easy to just be scared and like the other way versus to like jumping in helps not the right term, but being willing to be an advocate and like even if you don't foster. Or if you don't adopt like, there are still plenty of ways to help. So, yeah, I think sometimes it just seems like an insurmountable from the first glance and being willing to have that second look and like take those education classes and like I even feel that way

31:37sometimes with like special needs like people here. Oh, autism diagnosis and you think like, you know, the walls can crush it in and you think, oh, your life's going to be so different so hard like this and like yeah that's a part of it but that's not the whole thing. Like some of our sons like very best friends like with, you know, are on the spectrum or have had like severe like medical challenges and I think, oh my gosh like I'm so glad you guys get it come and play like there's just so much more to what the first client says.

32:14So, yeah, I think it's really interesting. Well, you're the way you phrase it if not you then who I think that's a really sweet kind of lesson to take out of your training and maybe some of those classes. But I think it's also kind of interesting that you maybe not. You're maybe maybe today you wouldn't have the same perspective. Had you not gone through those five years. Well for sure. All right, what are some of the lessons like the life lessons that you've learned from being parents of a child with special needs.

32:49He was probably like what 18 months old when we first had language classes that we went to. And one of the things that was said in that class that, and I don't remember a whole lot, other than like, these are the foundations of language like you have to have like a joint, like not even so much eye contact but like joint attention first before you can move on to the next step anyway, but they said celebrate every win. And I feel like maybe I've taken that like really pretty far. But I'm like, yeah, we celebrate everything like you got your SH blend today like heck yeah we're having a party like you want steak for dinner.

33:28That's great. Like, I, there's just too much that goes right to not celebrate. So, I think, enjoying the now, rather than looking to the future I think in the beginning. I saw myself like oh we're going to get through this and will be better in a little bit and. But I think, as time progressed. I saw some things it's like, no, we need to enjoy that now because he's not always going to be this way like may not want to come sit on my lap and do my work for me, you know, do my

34:06work, but take the opportunity to enjoy it because there's going to be times when he's just, you know, may have zero interest in hanging out with that. So like just kind of trying to. Yeah, just enjoy the now I think I'm going to put it best when it says, try to enjoy today, otherwise you're going to have a lot of empty yesterday's. So I just really like that, the realization that like what makes us special is the things that are unique about us.

34:36I don't know how, because I'm like he didn't get it from me and get from you, but like our son eats produce like no other kid I've ever met, like, how many times and we had the conversation you can't only have broccoli for dinner, like, please have something else. Or like he like, love like asparagus or like raw green onions, or how many pomegranates do we go through this time of year, like, that's just one of the things about him that it's like, he would rather have that than anything else, except for donuts,

35:06he loves donuts. Like that's just one of like, that's just one of the things that like makes him him is like, just loves his produce or like letters and numbers or the way like he, when you go for a picture, he's like, he has to like, tilt his head to the side to like give you like the super big cheese smile like. So, I just think it's just one of those things where like you are different and that's exactly why you're amazing. So, you talked a little bit earlier about, you know, maybe some newer family members or family members who don't see as much and how you navigate kind of educate them or teach them a little bit about adoption.

35:45Anything else you'd add to that? Like what are maybe some things that you've done to help people understand what adoption is? I think a lot of kind of what we get is people will kind of like, ask us, oh is it okay to talk to like, does he know about his birth parents and like they'll use like the terminology like real parents and things like that. But they kind of like do it more as an aside, oh does he know? I'm like, yes, he knows he's adopted. Like that's one of the reasons we tell him he's so great. Like he has a picture of his birth parents on the bulletin board in his room.

36:18Like we tell them when they text and ask how he's doing and like he loves to choose what pictures we send them and things like that. Like I think people. I think education. Education that like the terminology, right? Just saying they, how does he feel that he was given up a world they didn't give him up? They made a choice to place him and let us parent, right? And just kind of helping people see the cup half full side of things and see that you know what adoption isn't negative.

36:55So I think when they learn those things, they come away with a greater understanding and I guess a greater empathy. Like you know what? That was a hard thing or you know what? I feel like adoption is such a positive experience for a lot of people. I think for us to like adoption is just our normal, right? It's our everyday. And when it's not the normal for people and they kind of encounter it or see it, there's a lot of questions that they can have.

37:25But just helping people see the normal, that it's our normal is really helpful to help them kind of grasp how things work. Yeah, I think sometimes helping them to know kind of what is okay to ask. In the beginning, it's like Kim said, our son has dark hair and like this olive complexion. And like I have him with me and they'd be like, whoa, mom must have like super dark hair and stuff. Like you're so white. So then it's you know getting those opportunities to just kind of be the advocate in more ways than one is great.

38:03I think we've honestly really lucked out that we've always had some friends or neighbors like pretty close associates wherever we've lived with our son who have adopted as well. Like I think it's been helpful for him to see other families that look like ours or that have four kids that are adopted and we can say, oh yeah, like just trying to do it without using first names. But you know what I mean? Like they're the same, like I love that. You guys are both adopted. Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

38:36And then just being like, I think it's also not what people expect the norm to be to have good relationship with birth parents. Like we're really fortunate that we do have such a good relationship with birth parents. And I mean there's always been. Yeah, and I mean there's been some things where we're like if you smell like alcohol or weed, like when you come to a meeting like that means we can't have a visit today or even like just some things where it's like, oh, this. And then talking to our son like we need to be making sure everyone's making safe choices to be able to hang out and play with you, Drew.

39:12And so I think helping people realize, yeah, there's a whole avenue to healthy birth parent relationships that I think most people are just don't even realize exists. Yeah, and I guess our hope would be that that becomes the norm, right, that we all just have healthy relationships and, you know, I appreciate that you mentioned like having boundaries. And I hope people see to like, yeah, I have boundaries between we have boundaries between our children and many other people, right, like, and we want to keep them safe we want to keep them, you know, having really good experiences and no matter who that person is.

39:55Our job as parents is to make sure that they are having a positive experience. But overall I hope that the, the wow you guys have a great relationship with birth parents becomes less of a surprise and more of the expectation or the norm. Yeah, I think it's helped to kind of show that boundaries are positive thing. Everybody, when there's good healthy boundaries. Everybody actually feels better, because it's not left with the unknown oh is this okay is this not okay.

40:25So, those boundaries were specified and I think not only in our relationship with the birth parents but our relationships with others to to kind of see, oh, there's boundaries, like, I think in the beginning it was difficult I know, like, for some of like my family and different things like that like it was difficult in the beginning but then it's just always been easier once boundaries have been put in place so great I love that boundaries are so important. All right, well is there anything else that you guys want to talk about today.

40:56I mean I don't know how unique our situation is compared to everyone else's, but I know that like, it's been a huge blessing for us like the friendships we've made both through, like having similarities in adoptions, or whether it's been like other moms that I've connected with through like our son's special needs and like some of those groups and such, I think our lives have been so enriched because of our circumstances like I just kind of feel privileged.

41:31I mean, you guys have a great story I can tell I mean our listeners can't see right now but I can just see the smiles on your faces and just how genuinely you care about your son and his birth parents, and how important, you know navigating adoption and special needs is to you it's so, so parents so thank you so much for being with us for opening up and sharing. We're super glad you joined us. Thank you. We appreciate it.

42:08Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project, we loved hearing from Nate and Kim and we really love and appreciate the respect and honor that they give to their son's birth family, and especially to his birth mom. Yeah, one thing that really stood out to me from what Kim said was just about how we talk about the birth parents of our children to other people. And I really hope that as a community, we can make sure that we are really speaking positively about birth parents, and just helping people outside the adoption community see the vital role that they continue to play in our lives and the lives of our children.

42:48I agree and our kids are listening right and so how important is it to show our kids that we love all of them, including all of their family including their birth family, the people who brought them into the world. I feel like that's a really important role that we as adoptive parents have, making sure our kids know that we love and accept all of them and all of their family. Next week we'll be back with another episode we'll be sharing an adoptee interview and we're really excited about it. It's very authentic and raw and we are excited to learn more from Mary, who is an adoptee.

43:22Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. We'll see you next week.

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