Shane and Alisha | Fostering Connections

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. We're the Nelsons. I'm Sean. And I'm Lynette. Today we are excited to share an interview with Alicia and Shane. They are foster parents and they have so much wonderful wisdom to share with us. And today we actually have a really special treat for our listeners. We are dropping two episodes today. This interview with Alicia and Shane and also an interview with Kim who was a gestational carrier. We know a lot of our listeners are looking at different ways to grow their family

0:30and we thought these two episodes went really well together to help people who are trying to figure out what the right option is for their family weigh some of these different options that we don't talk about as often on the podcast. In this episode you'll hear Shane and Alicia talk about a lot of experiences with foster care but one thing that we really liked and that resonated with us as adoptive parents is the focus on the relationships that they have with biological parents and just really making sure that it's a solid, solid relationship even when that's not

1:07really an easy thing to do. Yes, I absolutely loved hearing how they've built this relationship with their foster kid's mom and how they've really become family and just such an incredible story. I loved learning from them. So we'll jump now to our interview with Shane and Alicia. All right, we're here on the podcast with Alicia and Shane. Thank you so much for being here with

1:40us. Thank you. We're so excited to be here. So we are old friends with Alicia and Shane and we're really excited to chat with them and have a reason to catch up, right? So today, can we start off with you guys just telling us a bit about you and sharing some of the things you enjoy? We're the Gallagers. I'm Alicia and Shane's my husband. We live in Hayward, California right now. We've been living here for just in Hayward for about a year. We were living in Berkeley for five years prior to that. Yeah, so Alicia and I, we both grew up in the Midwest. I'm from Missouri and Alicia's from

2:16Kansas. And we met each other out there at a church activity and then both went to college together and that's when we got married. And after that, we first moved to California where we are now. And we've been, we've experienced failed adoption and foster care. And so we don't have kids with us right now. We moved to California so that I could go to grad school at Berkeley. So I'm a

2:47nuclear engineer and Alicia studied communications and she actually just started a job recently too. So we're both just working here in the Bay Area. We just started a karate and kickboxing class together actually. So January, we were thinking about New Year's resolutions and wanted to do something that was fun but physical. And so we found this dojo and have been going to that every day since actually. And so that's something we really like doing together, along with hiking outside. Of course, that's really easy to do when the weather is wonderful

3:22in the Bay Area always. Yeah, some couples take dance classes and we just fight each other. That's awesome. That's a great workout too. Yes, it is. It's been really great. Let's jump in and maybe kind of chronologically start from the beginning of your story with considering adoption, failed adoption, transitioning to foster care and then what your experience with foster care has looked like. I think that it's basically started as soon after we got married. Actually,

3:55we were married in 2010 and a couple years later, we found out that we wouldn't be able to have kids on our own, even with medical intervention. That wasn't something that's possible for us. And so we started thinking about other routes of growing our family and adoption pretty quickly came to the top of our minds. And so we went to informational meetings to learn a little bit about it in 2012. And then I think it was you guys actually who we were exposed to open adoption

4:26in that option. And so we lived in China for a while and so we took a break from that, but had a chance to volunteer at an infant hospice care actually for an orphanage in China. And so that was kind of a nice way to stay connected to that part of us that still really wanted to grow our family. So when we got back from China, I think it was 2015 where we started looking at adoption more seriously. And that is when we were connected with a young woman in Southern California who was

4:57interested in placing her baby with us. And so we actually got to meet her and meet her family. And we were having a really wonderful experience with her and were invited to meet the baby and see her after the birth. And so we saw her, got to hold the baby and it seemed like everything was moving toward adoption. And it was going to be an open adoption because we were very supportive of that too. And then she changed her mind shortly after the birth, which was devastating at the time,

5:27but also completely understandable. And I think since then we've realized how much of a miracle it is any time that an open adoption takes place. And so after that failed placement, we decided to take a break because it had been five, six years of off and on looking at how we wanted to grow our family. And so that was when we moved to California and Shane was going to school and I was working, that was a really good setup just to kind of get reconnected with those parts of us

5:57that enjoyed life outside of just looking at how we want to grow our family. And then we started having that feeling of looking into foster care. What drew us to foster care is we liked the mission as reunification. I think just having gotten really close to this young woman and seeing how difficult the decision it was to place. We love adoption and we want to adopt someday, but we really resonated with the idea of foster care being

6:29about supporting the birth parents and rooting for them to be able to have their family together again. So in December 2019, that's when we decided that we wanted to be foster parents. We started doing the training and everything and we were approved to be foster parents in early 2020. So it was like that February, March timeframe that we were approved. And so we were, you know, and then the pandemic started really affecting things. We've kind of kept our eye on it, of course, but then March, beginning of March in California was when everything shut down.

7:03But we were still able to get approved and that process was fine. We waited a couple more months and then it was end of May, 2020 that we were, that we had our first foster care placement. It was the same day that Shane was starting a new internship too. And so it was a mix of a lot of different events on one day. We were placed with a three-year-old girl and a one-year-old boy. With it being in the pandemic, a lot of their support systems that they normally have weren't happening. I would say that our experience was definitely atypical.

7:34It felt like we didn't really have a lot of support, but in the end, it ended up being a really great experience. Yeah. And I should say that there are siblings. And so we said that we were open to a sibling group, and so they got to come together. So even as challenging as it was, it was nice that they had each other to go through that. And so they were with us until September of 2020. Until September of 2021 when they were reunified with their mom. So they were with us for about a year and a half.

8:05That's a long time. So because of the pandemic, how did that affect visitation or connection with biological family? Yeah, that's a really good question. And that was one of the more challenging parts because I think had the pandemic not happened, they would have been able to see their mom in person because the goal was to reunify with their mom. But because we didn't know really anything and they were concerned about transmitting the virus, we were restricted to having Zoom visits with her on a weekly basis.

8:41And that was really challenging. And so, I mean, there's the physical challenge of trying to make sure that these really busy toddlers are still on camera so their mom can see how they're doing, but also just not really having a chance to see her, how she's doing, and for her just to be able to hold them. And so I think that really set things back too because the court was delayed on everything because these in-person updates couldn't happen either. So it really put a wrench in things. And honestly,

9:14I think it probably prolonged their time in foster care because they weren't able to move things along as far as the court requirements. A question that prospective adoptive parents ask us a lot is, how do you know if foster care is the right route for your family? What would you tell them? I think that everybody should think about being a foster parent. I think that especially young couples who maybe haven't had kids yet, I think it's a great way to kind of get exposed to what parenting is like. And if you can parent a traumatized toddler or teenager, then you can handle anything.

9:52And you get so much training. You have access to so much information that I really think it's really good for anybody. I also think that a lot of people, a lot more people should consider it because there are levels. These two children were placed with us for a year and a half, but you can be approved as a foster parent and just be available for respite services. A child just being placed in your home for a couple of nights for emergency placement or something like that. And you always have the option to say no to a

10:28placement. So even if you're on the fence, you can be approved and then they'll call and say, oh, we have a placement for you. And if you're not feeling like it's the right time, you can always say no. But I think that it's a great way to serve our community and anybody can do it. Yeah. And I think that a worry that sometimes comes up is that if they say yes to a placement, but then they need to take a break for a little while or their life circumstances change, and then

11:00there's this pressure that now that I'm a foster parent, now people expect me to do that forever because if I don't keep doing it, then people are going to perceive me in a negative way or I'm going to feel bad about myself. But I can say that the kids were reunified in September and we are still waiting for placement. We've said no to a couple because we were out of town or it wasn't a good match for our skill set. And no one is judging us for not having a placement right now. Because

11:30with any, I think, of course, even with adoption, you have to put restrictions on it. They ask you what ages or there are all of these things that you can say yes and no to. And so as soon as you enter this world, you're already deciding what your limits are. And the same thing is true in foster care. So I think it's that flexibility, we should feel free to move in that flexibility, even if we feel pulled toward that even just a little bit. And then specifically for people thinking about growing their family, I think for us, I mean,

12:03we already talked about a little bit why we were drawn to foster care. You know, we're not sure exactly when our children are going to come to us, our forever family children. We feel really good about helping other families stay together. And we feel like that's a really important calling and mission. Every child deserves to be with a family that loves them. And if we can help them do that with their biological parents, like that's great too.

12:34And some of the other conversations we've had with others, they've mentioned similar thoughts that foster care may not be the best option if you're, just like you mentioned, Shane, if you're really wanting to start your forever family, quote unquote, there's a potential of some situations leading to that, but you shouldn't go into foster care expecting, or at least going into placements, hoping that it ends up in an adoption. Right. I think the statistic that I've heard is that

13:04about two thirds of children who are put into foster care will end up being reunified with their biological parents. It is still very common that you can adopt through foster care, but it's not the majority. These kids are still part of our lives. Since they've been home, we actually have been able to develop a pretty good relationship with their mom, and we get to see them almost every week. And so you're still part of their family. And they call me Daddy Shane and

13:38Alicia, they'll call Alicia Mommy. We're still part of their family. And it doesn't always work out that nice. I think we got really lucky with our first placement. Our idea of family has kind of evolved and expanded to include more people than just those people who are living under our roof. That's really cool. How sweet. And so what does that look like when you guys get together? Yeah, at the beginning, it felt pretty awkward. Right after reunification, we expressed to her

14:08that we were willing to be part of her life and the kids' lives if she was interested, but we really wanted to follow her lead because it's also completely understandable if she wanted to close the book on our role and just say, for me and for my family, I need to move forward separately. Thank you, but it's time for me to make this clean break. But she was really open to having us continue to be part of her life and part of the kids' lives. And of course, we knew the kids really well, but we didn't really know her and how she would respond to us being a part of that.

14:41And so at the beginning, we would meet at a park that was close to her place and we would play with the kids and she would sometimes sit on the bench or talk to family. And there was just kind of this a little bit of a distance and just warming up to each other a little bit. And then we had, we brought dinner to that same park a few weeks later and we all had dinner and sat there and all ate together. And then we kept doing that a few more times and then we invited her to our house

15:13and she came and we played with the kids and she had dinner with us. And then on Thanksgiving was kind of the pinnacle for me because she came over with the kids for Thanksgiving and at the end of the day, the kids wanted to play the pie face game. I don't know if you've played it before, but there's the little, you twist the dial and you don't know when the whipped cream is going to hit you in the face. And so it's kind of a gamble and really hilarious game for everybody. And we all played that game, you know, it was, and I think if you had told me at the beginning of all

15:46of this, that in a year and a half, you're going to sit down with this woman and play the pie face game with the kids. I would not have believed you because it was just, it was so new and really hard to know how to support her because we're willing to support however she needs to, but for her to welcome us in that way and to accept us as family in the same way that we want to accept her and her kids as family is really the biggest miracle and such a good experience for us to have right at the

16:17beginning. That was beautiful and very well articulated. It sounds like you've had a really good experience. I imagine along the way there were bumps in the road. What would you say were some of the hardest parts during that placement or just in general about being foster parents? These kids come into your life because they've gone through trauma. And so there's obviously going to be issues that you're going to have to resolve with them. The kids that were placed with us, they almost never slept those first few months they were with us. A combination of them being

16:55scared and were strangers and missing their mom. And at the time it felt like it was never going to end and it was actually really awful. But if we could talk to ourselves back then, talk to ourselves at that point and reassure them that it is going to get better. It takes a lot of patience and meeting the kids on their level and being able to compromise and work with them to get to that place

17:26where they trust you and are comfortable. That's probably the main thing that I wish we could do differently in the future with future placements is have more patience with ourselves and with the kids knowing that this is just going to take time. When there's trauma involved it's just going to take time to get over the things that happened. Get through it and it comes with you. And I think that the sleep for these kids was definitely the hardest part. To illustrate it a little bit, we

17:57were sleeping on our living room floor for several months because we had one child in a room who would have tantrums and night terrors. And so she was in one room and then we had the the toddler, the baby in a crib in our room and he was really light sleeper. And so we were in there too when he was aware of us and then he would wake up and then nobody would sleep. So it was better for us to be on the living room floor for a while and then it was just a gamble of which

18:32child is going to wake up. And miraculously it was usually one or the other. There were only a few times where it was both of them but they would be up and screaming for hours at a time with the night terrors and several times a night. And in a normal time maybe you could get family or friends to come or a sleep specialist, professionals who can kind of come and assess what's happening. But with it being so early in the pandemic and no vaccines, it was really a time for us to just

19:04buckle down and kind of survive it. So that was the hardest part for the kids but I think because we hadn't been parents ourselves either, I think we learned a lot about ourselves and about each other. Which I think there was a lot of surprises that things that triggered us because we talked about triggers for the kids but I think it's parents we have triggers too. And then to see I'm handling it this way and Shane doesn't like that or Shane's handling something this way and I don't like that. And so I think there were a lot of you know just normal parenting things that

19:36happen but compounded when you have two of them and it's all new. So I think those were a couple of the biggest challenges. That's rough. And I mean sleep is so important right? Like for the kids especially to you know be healthy and continue to grow and develop but as parents that deprivation. It takes a toll. Yes. It sounds like you're speaking from experience. We had one of our

20:11children that was a little bit more colicky and we learned really quickly that if Lynette doesn't get eight hours of sleep that it's not good for anyone in the family. And so you don't know until it starts happening day in day out. So I quickly became designated as the night parent. Yeah. And it worked for us. But yeah like I love how you mentioned that you learn things about each other in parenting that you would never know in other circumstances. When you're put into really

20:45challenging situations and sleep deprived you learn about each other. Yeah definitely agree with that. This is going to be different for every child of course but what would be some of your tips for how to connect with and build trust with your foster kids? How did you help them get over some of this anxiety they had? I think and Shane said this earlier I really think the biggest thing was just being patient and letting time do its thing because we would have we tried to establish rules

21:19to keep everybody safe. These are fun things. These are you know you can't do these things. And I think I expected for some reason that I'm the adult you are the child and because this power dynamic exists you will just listen. I had no idea that it would take so much effort and so much time which right now sounds so naive but at the time at the very beginning of this journey really did not know what it would take. So at the beginning you know when we're saying you you know you can't

21:50do that let's me to come over here and and calm down and they just say no and no and no and no and no over and over again. And then one day it was months after it was probably over a year after they had been with us we we told the the younger one to do something and he was mad but he did it. And I turned to Shane and and pointed and just my mouth you know my jaw dropped and I said did you

22:20notice the silent communication did you see that? I told him to do something and he did it like he didn't want to but he didn't fight me on it. And so I think that time was really the biggest thing for me to see evidence of any you know any good fruit coming from those little seeds planted a year ago. It took that long I think until they I think they trusted us and felt safe with us before that but it just took a while to really see that come out with such little people. Yeah and I would

22:50just add to that consistency maybe sometimes you can get away with mom and dad not being on the same page if if you have well-behaved kids or something but I think with just like how big of a challenge some of these some of these children can be you know it takes a lot of unity and in with our relationship and how are we going to respond when this happens and there was a lot of strategizing when we're you know like okay what are we going to do when this happens when that happens and

23:21I think being really consistent and on the same page bringing that stability to the to their lives I think also helped. Yeah I think a lot of our strategy sessions happened in our bathroom because it was in between the kids rooms and it was automatically connected to a fan and so there was like kind of this white noise and so at the end of the day when we're just terrified of anything waking them up we're sitting on the edge of the shower like you know as a huddle that okay this is what happened today and I don't know how to handle it and I guess that was another that was

23:56one benefit of the pandemic for us that in a normal time Shane would have been off on campus I was working remotely at the time and so Shane would have been doing his studies on campus and I would have been at home with the kids full time but because he was forced to be home then he knew what was going on and it was a lot easier to be exactly on the same page from the beginning so it didn't take as much effort to explain what triggered this child today and what the successes

24:26were so he was he was there and so I think we just got really lucky to start off really equally yoked at the beginning of our foster care experience. At the beginning of the pandemic things just changed so rapidly and I think it's awesome that you could look at the silver lining in that especially for the sake of these two I think it's really sweet that you can can see it that way. You mentioned this a little bit when you were sharing something earlier but if you could go back in time I think Shane mentioned a little bit but if you could go back in time to the very

24:57beginning of your foster journey any additional advice that you would give yourselves as you were just in the beginning? I think I would tell myself to do more to get help even though it wasn't easy and everybody was locked down I think there was probably still more that I could have done to just connect with other mom friends or tell my family I'm not sleeping and the things aren't going well

25:29and so I think just trying more to create more of a community and I think that's probably one of the hardest things about foster care is that I mean we felt especially alone because of these the weird circumstances around it but I also think that even in a normal time it can feel really isolating because you you're not really always connected to other parents who are experiencing these same challenges and so I think it takes a little bit more proactivity to feel less alone so

26:00you can kind of yeah just create this village of people who can support you through these things that you have no idea what you're doing. I think I thought I can do it I can do this I can do hard things but I think it would have been easier on us if we had a little bit more help even if it was you know virtual. Yeah I was listening to one of your episodes there was another couple in California who did foster care and they said something about like make noise or something about like I can't

26:31I can't remember exactly how he put it but you have to advocate for yourself and you know kind of get in the face of the caseworkers like you have to tell them what you need and you have to remind them and you have to deal with that stuff that's probably another thing I would tell myself is like don't don't be afraid to advocate for ourselves because it's better off for everybody if you can get the support that you need. That's great advice. What do you feel like we as a society can do and should be doing better to help support children? I just really want there to be more

27:01foster parents. I think Alicia and I I think we're okay parents I don't think we're the greatest parents but I know a lot of great people that I think could could help. I'm not trying to be like on a soapbox or anything there there is a big need for foster parents there's a lot of kids that need homes and stability. Obviously it's a personal decision or a personal decision with your with your partner you know I think it's a really great way to give back to the community and and there is a

27:32huge need. If you were the king and queen for the day and you could revamp anything about the foster care system what would you change to improve the experience that children are having? I think the biggest thing that I'm noticing probably because I live in the Bay Area and have worked for enterprise tech companies and I see the huge technological advantages that or opportunities

28:03that are available to companies that they have the right software and and everything. I think that the on the county level that foster care doesn't have these kinds of IT systems in place to really keep track of what kids need. So it's it's not a very warm you know I'm not I don't have a very like warm answer of like people need to do xyz but honestly the technology is so lacking and the

28:34onboarding process is it just seems really cumbersome and outdated for people who want to become foster parents and there's not really like a sales force equivalent system to keep track of a child because sometimes there will a child will enter foster care and then they leave but then they come back in and if they come back in a lot of that information is completely lost and so they can't be they don't know who was caring for the children prior to that who the case workers were

29:06there's not there's not really a good way to provide consistency of care because so many of these counties just don't have the technology to have have these profiles on on the kids so and and that's the one that I'm thinking of because it just seems like the systems exist over here and they just need to go over here and so there are some companies doing a really good job Binti is one of them they're actually based in Oakland and they do a really great job of of that onboarding process and so it's it seems very modern and very simple to stay updated on

29:41training and everything and I think they probably provide resources directly to counties as well but it just seems like I just wish that there were more you know technology services addressing these kinds of needs that would just help keep track of the kinds of things that worked and didn't work for kids if they come in and out of care and just to kind of add to that there's there's a lot of there's a lot of paperwork and bureaucracy that you have to do um you know to get

30:15approved and then once they get come into your care um and I just feel like there's there's got to be a more efficient way to do a lot of it you know like some of the things like you have to track how much you're spending on the kids like for clothing every month um you know that you have rules on how often they're going to the doctor and the dentist and it's very heavily regulated and lots of rules and you have case workers coming in all the time there's not enough tools or the tools aren't updated enough to really make it a smooth process for everybody and it just it just

30:50adds friction and makes it harder for everybody to to do it yeah and I think that last thought that you just said right like ultimately we're trying to provide this great experience for these children and sometimes that's maybe compromised a little bit because of the stress that all of these maybe broken systems or antiquated systems are putting on us as parents or putting on us as a couple and we could be putting more energy into nurturing but we have to jump through all of these hoops

31:23yeah that's really true and another problem with it is that social workers there's a really high burnout rate and really high turnover I think in the time that we've been foster parents we have and on this one case we saw three or four different social workers assigned to support the kids and communicate between us and the court and advocate for the kids so I think that and that's probably compounded certainly compounded by the pandemic and so when you take that factor into account too

31:54if there's high turnover here and the information isn't being easily transferred between cases there have been really devastating cases where you know in southern California where something happens to a child and it just turns out that the court didn't have the right information from the caseworker and so it's and you know that there is technology that makes it easy or that you could create something that's not brand brand new that would address these kinds

32:28of problems so that it's just more consistent so it's a very specific it's like a niche problem that really would get to the root of a lot of quality of care issues for the kids I've never even considered that but I can thinking about it right now I can see the mounds and mounds of frustration that that could cause is there anything else that you guys want to talk about there was one more thing that I wanted to say I can't remember if it was a previous question that made me think of it but I think with foster care it's important to remember that while it is about

33:01the kids it's also about the bioparents the mission really is reunification you know it's really easy to be judgmental of these people of like oh how could you do this but if you remember that they're a person too with with history and trauma you know there's probably reasons why they weren't equipped to to take care of their children properly and just be patient with them and you know they might seem really mean things or you know it might even get scary sometimes with with

33:32how they the way they interact with you to be patient with them and be their cheerleader as well I think that that made a big difference in our relationship with their mother being able to get to the point where it is today and now she hopefully sees us as a support that you know if she starts to feel overwhelmed again and start slipping into bad habits again she has us as a resource to hopefully prevent her from losing her kids again that we can we can help be there for her I think

34:02that that's been really meaningful and gratifying for me to to be able to to be there for that person you touched on the thing I was going to say too just to make sure that the the parents are part of the love that you have for this this desire to be foster parents because it is about the kids but because it's about the kids it also has to be about the bio family and I think that's probably another thing that could be improved is more training and more focus on making sure the

34:39foster parents know that while the goal is reunification love and care and being able to reunification love and respect for the family has to come with that it's not just I'm protecting these kids and you have to be a mama bear you do have to do that sometimes of course but there are cases where you really want to nurture that relationship so that they can be happily reunified and I think another concern that probably or that at least I've heard come up a lot with friends who

35:11consider foster care because I think a lot of people have considered foster care I've been surprised at how often I say that I'm a foster parent or you know I'm getting to know somebody and they and how many times people have said oh I've always wondered about that or I've always thought about doing that I think probably a hesitation that people have is that reunification what if everything goes perfectly well and I invest all of my time and my resources and my love into these kids and then they leave and you there's no guarantee if you get to see them again

35:46we got very lucky but we know that next time there's a good chance that they could be reunified and we don't have a relationship with them after that and so I think to that point I think that it's just important to remember that it's the that's a goal that because the goal is reunification that if you're invested in that from the beginning then the day that that comes gets a little bit easier and you have time to heal and of course you still love the kids but it's becomes more of a joyful

36:19moment when the reunification happens and especially when it's positive I've heard of cases where reunification happens and it's not a good situation or somebody there they have concerns about it and that can always be nerve-racking too but there is a little bit of relief in knowing that you were there for them in that really horrible time in their lives and that you could love them for that time and then it's kind of out of your hands it's kind of what comes with signing up for foster care

36:50so we we love we love those kids and we're really excited to foster again just to have another experience to add to the mix of things we've already had. You guys thank you so much for sharing I think that you are both able to articulate your feelings really really well in a way that I think a lot of people will learn a lot from this episode and walk away with some maybe different perceptions and maybe different desires. And I just love hearing about this relationship that you have now with the kids that you fostered and their mom and what a beautiful

37:26blessing in a relationship that is I love that so much. Yeah thank you we love what you do. We love what you guys are doing too we love open adoption and foster care seems like another version of that because it's the openness comes with it so thank you for being an advocate and a voice for that.

37:57Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Open Adoption Project and thank you to Alicia and Shane for sharing with us we loved hearing from them and really loved hearing these different experiences they've had with foster care and building these relationships. At one point Shane says he wishes that all people could be foster parents and I think to that invitation I think it's worth all of us considering what we can do to help or uplift the lives of others in our community or around us whether that be becoming foster parents or not I think that

38:33invitation invites us all to kind of step up and see what we can do to help and lift in other people's lives and I really really liked that. I love that yeah how we can strengthen families or others in our community it's really a beautiful invitation it struck me too. Another part that just stands out in my mind is the patience and love that these two have for these two kids that were brought into their home. I think Alicia did a great job of painting this picture of them

39:03sleeping on the floor in their living room and just waiting for one of the kids to wake up. I think us as parents we've had the experience of waking up with kids in the night but just the way that they talked about trauma and helping them adapt and cope and change just for me highlighted the great amount of patience and love and kindness that these two have and so I'm just really really grateful for both of them. Yeah they're incredible examples I loved hearing their thoughts and

39:34honestly just feel inspired by their examples. So remember today we also have another episode that dropped it's our double episode release day and so we have Kim sharing her gestational carrier story and our other episode so make sure to check that out too and again thank you so much Alicia and Shane we loved hearing from them.

40:22Thank you.

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