Michael and Tony | Fostering Little Victories

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. We're the Nelsons. I'm Sean and I'm Lynette. Today we are excited to have an episode with another adoptive family. Today we have Michael and Tony on the podcast. They are an adoptive couple and they have one daughter who they adopted and then they've also done foster care. Some exciting news on the podcast front. We actually just hit 11,000 downloads so thank you to all of you our listeners for your support and listening to the

0:31podcast. When we started we had no idea the amount of people would be able to connect with and what we might be able to do to influence the adoption community. It's been really enriching. We've actually received several messages from adoptive parents and adoptees and birth parents all saying how the podcast has benefited them and helped them. So we're so grateful that we can be here with you guys and for each of you who come back every week and listen to us. And we're so

1:02grateful for the chance to be learning each week too from all of these different perspectives. Honestly I feel like I've learned a ton in the last several months. And now we'll jump to our interview with Michael and Tony. Okay well we are now on the podcast with Michael and Tony. Thanks guys so much for being with us today. Hey thank you. Our pleasure. Well we're excited to get to learn about you and hear your story. To get started can you just introduce yourselves just a little bit? Sure sure. I'm Michael and this is Tony. And I do

1:39talk. When he doesn't have a cracker in his mouth. Truly. And we live in Sherman Oaks, California. And we've been married for nine years. And how long we've been together? And we've been together since 2008 I guess you could say. So roughly what 13 years or so this Christmas Eve. That was our first date. That was pretty evident from our first date. We both wanted to have a family. We had both come

2:09from dynamic families. I'm one of six. Michael is one of three. And very funny upbringing. Loud, raucous, sharing crazy. You know good times, good family upbringing. A few years between the two of us. I'm a little bit older than Michael. You are? I am. It's a surprise. I wanted to do it right here on the podcast. All of that falsified documentation. I'm gonna be 53 and Michael is 38. Yes. So

2:41there's a few presidencies between us. And yeah we had a successful first date and family was gonna be for you know foremost in our goals together if the relationship worked out. And it did. Yes. Yes. And what do you guys enjoy doing? Oh gosh it's so funny because we we're right now working on our next adoption actually. So we were just filling out this information this weekend. You know

3:15like sometimes you make like a brochure about your life and things together and it's asking all these hobbies and so it's funny you should ask. I feel like it should be hot on our minds. Yeah. We do a lot of traveling for sure. Absolutely. Mostly to see our family. Sort of that I don't know we just really like we have to stay active. We have a five-year-old daughter. Mm-hmm. You know and we stay active with her hiking. Yesterday we took the train down to

3:48Oceanside which is like the San Diego area and that was a fun little trip for her. We do a lot of dog walking and bicycling. She helps me cook. We're a big food family. Yeah. And that's fun. Her job is setting the table for supper and we bake and we'll make food for people and do you know little drops if someone's in need. Yeah you know we're pretty tight as a unit. By the way we

4:21love Southern California and go there as much as we can. Beach time is good for the soul. Yeah yeah taking the train down the coast was to San Diego is great because she you know she got the experience of traveling by rail and watching out on the ocean towards Camp Pendleton. There's surfers, there's dolphin, you know bright sunshine. Good stuff. Yeah it's an amazing place to live. How cool. Yeah yeah well it's beautiful up where you are in the mountains. Oh we love it. Yeah lots of good hiking.

4:57It's beautiful up there. Yes yes. Well let's have you jump in and share some of your experience with us regarding adoption and foster care. We'd love to hear your story and how it kind of is all unfolded. Sure do you want to go first? Please. Okay well as Tony said like on our first date we we talked about family, wanting to have family and have a family and adoption was always just like at the forefront. Tony has five siblings, one of them his sister had

5:33already adopted as well. She has two daughters adopted from Guatemala and my mom's adopted and at that time like Neil Patrick Harris and his husband David Burka were like at the forefront of like doing the the whole insemination and kind of like leaving it to chance to see which one would actually be the parents of their twins and that was always like a bit of a I don't want to say a dream. We

6:05joked about it but I think we both knew that adoption was really where we wanted to go instead of like a surrogacy you know type of thing. So yeah we're very traditional we got married where it was legal at the time and bought a house, got a dog, planted azaleas, very traditional. And then we decided to start a family so we started our adoption process in 2015 and you know

6:41took the classes and did all the brochures like I was just mentioning and met all the other people and interestingly enough we were the only gay couple in all of our classes which I thought was interesting. Yeah and yeah it was it it's different for everybody but you know for us it just adoption made sense you know. Yeah and the the the the the training etc that Michael was

7:14talking about too runs the gamut where you're very it's very interesting like you know water safety, CPR, Heimlich, you know a lot of things that probably other couples wouldn't have to be qualified in before they start a family. Water safety sure you know I'm sure that you know person one person two and the courting says are you certified to boat safe and boat safety and rescue? The and some of the materials and the training that we would look at would be completely

7:46outdated some unbelievable in the one-sidedness and the sexism and but these are materials from an older date society is going in different direction and to have to garner that knowledge okay we're gonna have to bite our tongues on certain things it's fascinating but you know crossing those bridges as we brand and market our heart is what we had to do at the time birth rates were

8:19down and adoption was not very successful and so we had a almost 18 month search before we were matched and it was a wonderful it was obviously it was meant to be that she came to us because our daughter is remarkable and we become fascinating shades of ourselves you know we don't rock climb anymore and we paint rocks in the backyard and we're gifted we're gifted through so many small actions because of adoption and because of the love that

8:51came to us so hey a little water safety along the parts it's nice conversation point yeah we just I guess we just kind of lucked out it was the early part of 2016 and I kind of started to like lose hope already because we were a year into it and I was just like people keep saying you know no when we submit our profile and our home studies and I was like I just I'm getting older over here

9:23you know did you show them the lasagna that I made I mean they still said no I don't know well that's what we did I decided to have a new project yeah we needed a project something else to kind of focus on so we decided to put an addition on to our home and as soon as the architect finished the drawings a baby fell so our daughter her birth parents came to us because they actually

10:01already had a another agreement essentially with another couple and the other couple fell through yeah at the last minute they the the couple decided to cancel the arrangement and so they were they were spinning they were you know personally affronted by this and so late and you know it's a series of conversations it's a series of trusts that you have to earn and share with each other on something so incredible as adoption and multifaceted that you know

10:33to have them blown up like that was disturbing so they came at us very guarded and they came at us cautious as a same-sex couple but earnest enough to have the conversation and still have some humor in their persona and it was a very easy bond between all of us and and it was a three month pregnancy really she was we matched the end of March at the end of May and the baby was to be born in early September yeah so I didn't realize how like we had been let down so

11:10many times if you will you know you get your hopes up and things fall through they had come with that same kind of like we want you guys to realize we're in this if you are like don't back out on us and I was like oh no no we won't you're not going to right and so I never kind of thought about it that way they really they needed us as much as we needed them after that you know we kept in contact with them and then we met them a month before we flew to meet them

11:40and well the back of the house has been ripped off of course and it was so it was just a very interesting meeting I guess maybe you have an idea in your mind of you know we showed up to their door we had flowers a toy for their son and we knocked and knocked and knocked and I was like okay texture when we got

12:12off the plane like where did they go and I was like oh my god they left they left they left us and then I was like wait we're at the wrong place you know we're like our neighbors gonna start looking at us and I don't know I we called and here they had like run out to the store to like buy food for dinner they were gonna cook for us and that was so thought yeah and you know they they were they were from you know not a lot of means so they were they were getting plates you know they

12:43were getting paper plates they were getting because they were gonna cook and everything but there's they didn't have certain basics there you know and they went out to get that and scramble and they were gonna make sure that we were comfortable and it was it was hospitality was lovely and then so when they they did come back we didn't want to be there Tony's like we're not gonna be here from Walmart I'm not going anywhere so we drove around so we come back we pull in we see the cars in front of their place like okay they're here

13:14you know and our daughter's birth father birth father is coming out he's like unloading the car just like a simple like hello like hello neighbor you know and goes back in and we're like guess we'll go in after you you know we walk in and then our daughter's birth mom is changing her son and she's sitting on this on the bed and she's like hi nice to meet you I was like hi how are you and your mind you I mean maybe someone like me I just felt like there was gonna

13:44be doves flying and this like halo over her head when I meet her and it's like more of a hallmark moment yeah it was just very after school special and then after the you know we just sat down and talked all night I just they were like old friends you know we've you know met each other and maybe another life because it was incredibly so yeah yeah they had placed prior we asked them

14:14questions yeah okay and what about this and what about that and did you name did you did you allow the family the birth family or adoptive family to name a friend had donated breast milk to us so we were gonna be traveling with our own breast milk she's like okay so I'll be delivering at this hospital okay they're gonna force breastfeeding on me and she says you have to be forefront with your birth plan it's a birth plan you got to be upfront with them and just tell them that they're not gonna force lactation on that that you're gonna be carrying this that they need to keep that available to you and to bring it to you the nurses cycling will be changing so be aware that when the nurses change

14:45that that next one's gonna have to I mean they were like well we'd like thank you thank you for taking us by the hand on this they have one child still in their care whose special needs so there I mean their lot in life is heavy yeah they were really special people so yeah they shoot when she delivered I stayed in the room with her that night because she had had her oh that's the other thing too that just heads up you don't think about it but you know typically there's the mom and you know the spouse in the room and the baby and like with

15:18an adoption there's a lot of people in this room you know in a very small room where you're like I'm just wanna okay excuse me and I'm gonna get her okay there and you move this way and you know cuz there just was no room nurse is addressing her you know as mom she's like not the mom that's the mom over there yeah that's me I'm the mom hi did you try did you try to breastfeed they have milk I have the milk I told Bianca the milk is in the service station it's right behind her lunch go find it and she the the bio mom was so remarkable

15:53she looks at us and she was just telling you know people like I'm not sad about this it's it's it's kind of like I'm with old friends and and it's it's it's easy for me to do this because I see what's happening and what's gonna happen and we can't do that but you gentlemen can I was in there with with our daughter and her birth mom and I was trying to re swaddle her and of course you know your first one you're like when I practice the bear didn't move and she

16:24got up out of bed she was like let me help you and I was like okay yeah sure because she did make it a point not to like want to hold her too much yeah you know matter of fact our daughter came early she was supposed to be a c-section on the 21st if September but there was a harvest mooned that weekend and everybody went into labor so she came early and so we were on a flight there and of course we get there and there's an issue with the rental car and anyways

16:55the birth mom was texting us like how far are you guys away she needs to be fed and they want me to feed her I'm like you know so she was she knew her boundaries I guess yeah and so when she helped me swaddle her it was a very sweet sweet moment yeah we got there she was born in the evening and then the following morning we got there and Michael was there just in time to bathe our daughter and oh yeah so I pick her up and you know I have my moment like the

17:27most beautiful thing I've ever seen in my life you know transformative and then I just start to notice she still has a lot of blood like in her hair and I was like um don't these things come clean and the nurse was like well we wanted to wait for you guys to give her a bath to show you and I was like oh okay gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha now mind you she was scheduled for a c-section on Tuesday she came on Friday night and I was trying to prep Michael with some YouTube videos saying this is actually what a c-section happens this is how it

17:59happened I said yeah you want to be in the room right I think you should be outside I should be in the room I'm gonna be there I'm gonna be yep this is what happens in a c-section yeah so then then her birth mom really wanted to be discharged but we had rented like an Airbnb close it and I went I bought all this food at the grocery store prepared food we were gonna be there for a few days you know like meatloaf and mac and cheese from the deli department and I

18:32spent so much money that my credit card company called to be like there's a charge in a state you don't really go to and I was like no that's me that's me we're just gonna baby and then we did get discharged and the next day was a Monday and they all the paperwork is through you guys can go home you're like what right now you know yeah we're supposed to be here a bit you know we're totally planning to be there for a while so we you know they in all your classes

19:04they talk about the goodbye is really hard for the you know the birth parents so we wanted to say goodbye so we took all the food that I bought and we dropped it off at their house and yeah she got to say goodbye and she was they were both really good we asked if they wanted to hold her and they were okay just choosing in her car seat sleeping and yeah she looked at her we took a couple pictures together and they were like all right we'll see you later when

19:34we had come up to meet them they had arranged to have a 3d imagery for us so we got an advanced preview of the mashed potatoes that look like a baby up on a screen and very very sweet they had and when we went to say goodbye they had a little gift for her and for us I mean on top of everything that I've already done and we you know it was still it was lump-in-the-throat moment it really was it was just you there are no words for that moment on such a on such an

20:04occasion that you can properly meet the feelings or even the act so you do the best you can like parenting and you just you know pre-covid and everything you're able to give some hugs and just say thank you and we'll talk soon it's an interesting moment that's for sure unlike anything else yeah yeah it is you've went through this you've gone through this whole experience you know

20:36that feels like months or even years but it was merely a couple days and lives were were changed lives were formed you know and then it's like I'll see you yeah thank you is thank you is thank you big enough to recap for anybody just tuning in right now to listen that's our goes from on our first date talking about a baby to courtship still hoping to have a family one day to getting married finding a home to finding a dog getting boat certified and water safety

21:10certified to search to search to search to find to prepare and do you really prepare do you don't paint the nursery because everything's still up in the air to getting matched to the baby coming to okay now you're pregnant in 36 hours to booking plane tickets getting breast milk so watching your daughter arrive to giving her her bath to all of a sudden saying goodbye to these people that all of a sudden became family and and the timeline and the gestation of it all is not it's it's alien you know to everything else that's out there

21:44contrary to how you hear and what's interesting is so my mom was born in a time where there wasn't open adoption so everything was closed and and she has very strong feelings about adoption which anybody who was adopted would probably have and so I I know I took on a lot of her feelings being you know her kid and knowing I didn't I didn't know her father he died before we were born

22:21but I did know her mom my grandmother and having a personal attachment to that that at the beginning I did not want an open adoption because I thought it would be so hurtful to my mom and then I realized so much has changed in in life and so much can be gifted to you from knowing these people or that person and so I had all these preconceived notions like now I have such a love for this

22:52woman and you know these people that because people often ask like this is the best people say are you are you gonna tell her she's adopted two dads she's gonna figure it out first yeah the jig is up and so so yeah if you know if and when she's ready or maybe she won't be whatever I'm I welcome the chance to to see these people again yeah you know and she you she looks a lot like her birth

23:26dad you know a lot like him and he kind of just looks like me like a white guy you know what I mean like like fair skin and so people often say like oh she looks like you and I'm like oh you know her birth dad looks like me and we're just white people I don't know and so it's a trip but we have pictures of her biological siblings and there's there's a couple girls so she can have an idea yeah what a couple of them she

24:00looks very familiar to you know and so I have this whole book created for her you know so when she's ready we can look through it because right now you know you know we tell her all the time you know like brush your teeth get ready for bed we love you you're adopted you know okay you know but she doesn't know what adopted means yet really she knows that her family is unique and she knows that all families come from different origins different ages you know they can come

24:33from different points of creation different they can have different faces they can have a myriad of possibilities to them and that the center of it all is love and center of it all is right you know it's we're a family and we're a team you know and yeah which is kind of how we got into them then fostering right yeah so it just kind of felt like there are kids a lot of kids that need help and we can be of service to help them and you know the cherry on the top

25:07is you know if one of them maybe one stays instead you know be adopted so so we've got into fostering in 20 I think we started in 2018 but I didn't finish the paperwork yeah even more expensive and more extensive than adoption primarily because well now we have a kid yeah and she becomes a ward of the state and then she becomes into our care we have to be yeah well but also like all

25:40her information yeah go in you know her immunizations and then we knew we were gonna need help like babysitters and so you have to get them approved and there's a it took me forever right they need to be live scanned your house you know every everything needs to be crawled up to because the government's involved the state is involved there's a privacy that needs to be respected on you know all of the parties of the child's you know family etc there's there's case workers

26:11there's social workers there's ot there's PT there's all kinds of stuff that's gonna come in regional center and all kinds of stuff that's gonna come there's a sea of people now in foster yeah yeah so but we finally got approved yep thank God yeah thanks forever and then yeah so since then we've been fostering we've had three placements and each one has been reunified and we were fostering boys at first because we wanted to get experience with a little

26:47guy and then we just were open to whatever like okay once you do one you're done you know and we're approved for two beds and so we could take a sibling set we were approved zero to three so we'll take a newborn which is you know I just you give me a baby and I'm happy as a pig and you know what I mean it's just the smell and I don't mind the midnight feedings I don't mind the swaddling whatever and he's just like you're not sites that I know but

27:17we wanted to do it because there is a system right now that's overloaded with children in need and there is a system that's not very effective and we were educated as we went along the way not just in classes of you know all kinds of upkeep you know implicit bias and all kinds of interesting things but we were learned how how DCFS works and how these families that get caught up in it operate but we proposed it to our daughter and we were hopeful that she

27:53was going to take because when we first just talked about family we wanted to have something in permanency and that was going to be our cornerstone and that was our daughter and then soon after that if we were able to help some people would we want to do it so it was discussed that we would do this as a family we do it as a team everybody's responsible you help clean you help feed even the dog would have to fetch a toy or something everybody but we do it as a family and the new arrivals were never embraced as sibling or maybe they're gonna stay because you don't want to paint the nursery you don't want to

28:24loft the balloon too soon you wanted to approach it pragmatically and you wanted to make sure that the child the placement had the services etc but also insulate your family and be smart about it because emotionally you you need to prepare that and have that wall up there and also for efficiency because you're gonna need to do some extra steps at the end of the day this child is gonna be reunified and so let's make sure that they get everything that we can do for them if they need OT services if they need socks shoes they arrived and they

28:57were sore-ridden and you know you're gonna get the salve for them and they need doll you know they need and so you address it and they have nightmares and you're gonna squeeze them and I'm sorry you know sometimes it's gonna disturb the sleep in the household but all of us together contribute to that in the moment that one of us wants to step out of it then we'll have a discussion on how we're gonna have to table it and it's tough it's very tough yeah yeah I think one of the biggest lessons I learned and this was after we our first

29:27placement was the longest he stayed for eight months and naive foster parents we were like he's gonna be the one we might stay you know we're gonna adopt him you know but looking back it was incredibly clear his parents you know they kept in touch they called every night to check in on him they did their visitations you know they did their due diligence but he was here the longest and through the holidays and there's a lot of bonding and a lot of milestones

30:01that he achieved with us which is phenomenal and you do all this work and then they go back and you're like oh okay now you're walking okay you know but um I think one of the things the hardest lessons I learned was I think you should absolutely treat your foster placements or children like they are your own but raise them to the specific needs that they have for instance this

30:32young guy was neglected and so he needed a lot of love you know especially when he came back to us after placement he would be incredibly needy and need to be held and you know when you have two kids and you're trying to make dinner and we have we did at the time had separate shifts so Tony was the day dad he had them during the day and then I was the night dad so you know cooking by myself and baths and then bedtime it's very stressful and a lot of times I would you

31:09know I would treat him like I would treat my daughter like okay I can't pick you up right now you just got to get over it but then when you look back and you take all these continuing education classes yearly I remember we were taking one neglect and like out of the eight signs he had seven of them yeah and I was like oh my god I should have picked them up why didn't I pick them up that night he needed me it was after a visit he'd been all day with them and he needed it from me like I'm fired you know that was one of the learning lessons because we're

31:44gonna he's gonna go back and I wanted him to be I was like dude listen you it's gonna be tough for you you you've got to be strong and I want you to be strong but in that moment I know that he needed he needed more yeah he came to us as a frenetic and reactionary and untrusting and you know he'd been such such neglect and you know behind developmentally and we had gotten him to services and we went to the appointments and we got it up walking and we got it up talking by

32:17the time he was reunified was right about the time when the shutdown like that he walked around this house like a little Lord Flaunt Lord he had a strut he had a chipper little smile and I was like Michael Zanaleu you know we did that we did that together and that you know little nit the reunification happened very fast it was terrible it was like it was our first one so we didn't know what to expect but everything was shutting down with the with COVID and everything and it was just mind-spinning that you could call us at quarter after ten and

32:47the baby is gone at 115 and he wasn't a baby at that point he was you know a year and a half and I mean it was just it was mind-blowing but we had done it and it was amazing and from my experience out of it the positivity not long ago I had run into the family and they embraced the experience and embraced us like you know we miss you you know we our child misses your

33:21daughter here you want to see pictures we should get together in a park they could play together and I saw I got to see pictures of a happy kid you know so much positivity on that you know and so we'll count that as a win and at that time we were having an issues with a placement that had come back to us who was not in such a good situation and but look at what we've done in the past and even still when that placement came back to us he recognized us and we were fixing problems on that one and you know when that one came to us we had a baby we were a party of five we had a newborn the newborn stuck with us for a little

33:53bit we're actually the name that we've given them the baby that didn't have a name the bio family that took them on love the name and that little light left us and went out and succeed we got pictures at Halloween of that one and I look at these little victories I have a hold on to these little victories because this is what we signed up for you know like parents there's gonna be wins there's gonna be losses and you know it's just at the end of the day we want to tell anybody that's gonna foster reunification is gonna happen at the end of the day the government tells the states that needs to happen the state

34:23tells their workers and on you know unless something horrible happens to that child on the other side of the line that baby's gonna go back there so knit it its blankets give it its squeezes do everything in your power to keep your mind straight and love that little son of a gun and love that son of a gun and maybe they glean to it maybe they glean to it and it helps them out of their dark situation down the road you know it broadens their experience and yeah yeah I think a lot of people will say that when we tell people we foster and

34:55they're like oh I could never do that I could never do that like that is a really hard part of it but that's not even like really it you know it's a there there there's you know there's this whole mentality going into it you know that so that's not even the hard part if you ask me personally it's it's that your your hands are a bit tied with everything and you know my only advice is just you know

35:28keep advocating as hard as you can you're gonna get a lot of voicemails and you're gonna yeah we've written you know like forms to the judges and yeah we've heard comments back like oh the judge didn't like what you wrote because it sounded like you wanted to adopt the kid I was like well have your honor give me a call tell them you know the adoption wasn't the the primary focus the kids safety and health is the primary focus the transparency is not always there phone calls are not always returned truth is half-spoken so you need to be

36:02diligent and an advocate like advocate like Mark Michael said you need to you need to really be aggressive on top of nurturing the little something that needs the extra love to come back from where they were so get ready get yourself a cup of coffee and sit down and get just get yourself busy because there's gonna be some steps involved yeah I was listening to a podcast with Tiffany Haddish and she is a product of the LA foster system and she does so

36:34much for the community as far as where she was raised and I guess we could call it like central LA mm-hmm and and she mentioned that when she you know she gets to a point she would love to adopt one day because no that's all she ever wanted was to get adopted and nobody ever adopted her and I mean she was breaking up while she was saying this on a podcast and it made me incredibly sad

37:04because I felt like there are so many Tiffany Haddish is out there that just want to be adopted you know and she was the one Jen I mean look what she's done with her life and her career she is a forefront and makes me want to like work with her on a project to get more kids adopted because I feel like the system ties people up ties ties up children you know yeah you have to wonder what got through to them what agency you know was successful with them that spoke to them

37:38that that kept let them persevere you know what did they fascinated on and hook on to literature art science mathematics food what what what was it that you held on to what was your life preserver in the moment that while you were in such a dark period got you through got you creative got you successful you know I'm sure every case is relative but how important it is that that that you were reached you know and that you were able to nurture so your your talents because there's just I mean you don't want to say inventory out

38:11there but there's a wall of people that's so awesome I mean I'm just kind of reflecting on both experiences you've shared and I feel like you both have articulated really well a lot of lessons or messages that many of our listeners can learn from and whether it's with adoption or foster care everything that we do everything we pour into these children is to bless them and to help them to have the best future that they can have right and no matter what the situation is whether that's a child that's going to be permanently part of

38:43your family or one that you may have an influence on over for a few weeks or months as much as we can love on these kids and help them have that peace or you know calm in life it's going to it's going to help them in the future even if we can't see that in the moment so I love the way that you said that and I think the feeling that I have is just like I want to go love on my kids and make sure that they feel that all right so a question that we get asked a lot

39:16from perspective adoptive parents is how do you know if foster care or adoption is the right option for your family what would you tell those people that's a really good question how do you know gosh oh man that's a really tough one right I feel like if you're looking for a family I would do adoption foster care I feel like you're making a huge difference and like I was kind of saying

39:46before it's the cherry on top that you maybe hopefully one day get to adopt because it's a much longer process I mean yeah it's a much longer process but I think there's heartache in both for sure you know there's there's a lot of resources that are spent in both but I think if you want to build your family I I would focus on adoption you know for sure for building that yeah for building

40:19your permanent family what do you wish you could tell yourself you know looking back at the beginning of your adoption journey if you can go back and talk to yourselves knowing what you know now what what would you share with yourself I would say be patient um Tony always tells me in life it's about process not results when he says I would tell myself absolutely be patient

40:55because I firmly believe I think there was a saying years ago that adopted children are spent but I firmly believe that your child chooses you whether it's through adoption or through flying into your belly and you know and coming to the world that way and so I think you have to I would tell myself to practice patience she's just gonna find us or he you know anything you have I would say

41:28lean into the social workers the case workers with everything you've got believe half of what they tell you and don't be afraid to call their supervisors lean into them and I wish I'd had that at the beginning because I mean I'm not shy at all for adoption but for for foster but I would I would tell myself that at the at the at the beginning my younger self you know with fostering ask the questions be the nuisance be the nuisance be the nuisance

41:58be the nuisance okay got it right let's see so what do you wish that other people knew about adoption and building your family this way I don't know if it's a regret or we're so open I would share a lot of our story with friends and people would kind of sometimes judge and misconstrue our daughter's birth parents reasoning for doing this and they had often retort back with like oh are they

42:28just doing this for blah blah blah and I would be like I don't know why they're doing it and I don't care all I care is that they've made the hard decision to place the child they've chosen us and we've chosen them it doesn't matter I wish that people and you I mean who doesn't want like a better world with judgmental free but I wish that people just have the empathy to put themselves in other people's positions like people are placing because they know they can't

42:58parent and that might be from resources might be because they're in a bad situation it might be because something terrible happened and some assault happened mm-hmm you know and you share this with people they're like oh I had no idea women get pregnant as a result of a rape and they want to place the baby because they don't believe in abortion yes that's a reality and are we open to that hell yeah because it's not the kids fault how they came into this world so I wish that I guess to answer your question more people had a logical open-mindedness and things aren't just so black and white you know

43:32like little Susie got knocked up at 15 oh she's placing the baby no it's not always like that and if she did who are you to judge back up I love that yeah I think you said it pretty well so what I mean you've talked about your daughter's birth family as you know being part of your family or having a relationship with them what does that kind of look like right now and how do you nurture that the we we know how to reach them and they as Michael said you know we had

44:11concepts and precepts of an open adoption at the beginning when we started the journey and then that fell to the side and how they engaged us also was just like you know we don't need a card on Mother's Day you know we and I know that they through social they can keep tabs on us and we're good with that and they have the preferred mode of communication that we asked them to to do that and and that's cool but right now that I think we're all about more

44:44than six months there they're they're out there and we haven't heard back from them so we know that they're they're well we know they're watching we know that if we you know put a concerted effort out there we would get them but we also know that their preference was we're good and and yeah I've tried to reach out a couple times and I don't think they're not getting back to us for any particular reason but I know as she grows older and grows up and maybe has

45:17more questions or wants more information that will be right there ready like what you know do you want a card should we write her a letter you know absolutely want a picture yep I would I think I would love more than anything especially with social media if she when she's older it's still around that she has a relationship with her birth siblings of keeping in contact that would be very unique oh my god for her extended family like that absolutely if she ever wanted

45:49to meet them you know like I said I want to see them again so let's just tell me when they're coming over for supper so I can prepare or we could leave and then make them not good that was a good circle back well as we as we kind of wrap up any other like a lot I mean we have all members of the adoption triad listening to our podcast right adoptees birth parents and adoptive parents what what would be kind of like your parting advice or words of wisdom or or kind of

46:24maybe your soapbox that you share when it comes to adoption well like Michael said it doesn't it doesn't matter where they came from or how they came from you do your diligence and you know in your heart in your head and your circumstance what you can do and and get ready because doesn't matter where they came from how they came from whatever they're there now all right and they're there now and they came to you for a reason okay they chose you they chose you you love them you love them the process is is is important but what happens is the

46:58moment and that moment is in your hands right now and you do the utmost level best you can I know that that that one came to you I also think about I wish more people did adopt in a sense because it is such an open conversation now then it was you know what 10 20 30 40 15 16 years ago and I know whenever I would like share that my mom has also adopted people often reply back with oh did she

47:28ever find her mom like oh she did when she was born on August 29 1956 so my grandmother adopted her that's when she found her mom you know I know what they are trying to say but I think people have this preconceived notion that if you're adopted at some point you've got to find your biological family and I think one thing I would like people to know also is that adoption isn't about knowing where you came from it's about knowing who you are and that means different things to different people I want people to know that it's not

48:00transactional it ain't Macy's you idiots it's matter it's emotion and it's how you're the child doesn't need the transaction to complete them as a person you've completed them in the in the love and the care and the education and the experience that you've brought them because they brought that to you and it's a circle we all do it as a team and everybody contributes okay and how we all got there is irrelevant at the end of the day what matters is the individual that's forming in front of your eyes and what they're gonna go forward to do thank you so much you guys we loved hearing your story and your thoughts we

48:32really we appreciate the opportunity and we appreciate your podcast very much so thank you guys so much we really appreciate it thank you guys for doing this absolutely thank you very much thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project we want to thank Michael and Tony for sharing their story and experiences with

49:02us we think it's really important for us as members of the adoption community to understand different perspectives and stories and so we're just glad that they were able to share from their perspective yeah and I think it's always valuable to hear from parents who have done foster care and the different challenges and rewards they feel from fostering connections with these children next week we're excited to hear from an adoptee Addison is an adoptee who was born in China and she and her friend Libby host a podcast called adoptee

49:36meets world and it's wonderful I have listened to it and I encourage you to check it out and it's so fun to hear her experiences and her thoughts and different things that she's learned challenges she's faced and just learning from her as an adoptee voice always such an important and rewarding thing thanks again to Michael and Tony and thanks to each of you for listening to this episode of the open adoption project

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