Gina | "My Little Butterfly"

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lamette. And I'm Sean. In today's episode, we have an interview with Gina Krox. And guys, I have to tell you that this is probably one of my favorite interview episodes that we've ever done. It's really good. So we're just going to jump right in and go straight to the interview and we'll recap with some of our thoughts afterward. We hope you enjoy this interview with Gina.

0:36We are here on the podcast with Gina. Gina, thank you so much for being here with us. Yes, of course. Well, to get started, would you mind just introducing yourself to us a little bit? Yeah. So my name is Gina Krox. I am a birth mom, been a birth mom for 21 years. I have three children that I have raised on my own as well. So my daughter is the one I placed and then I also have two boys and another daughter. I've been in the adoption community for a long time. I ran my own nonprofit organization called Birth Mother Baskets for about 14 years and served on a lot of panels,

1:11did a lot of conferences and really kind of jumped into the adoption world when it wasn't open. No birth moms were speaking out and talking about their stories. And that's kind of what really drove me to stand up and have a voice is because I was like, there's got to be other people out here that know about adoption or know a birth mom or I just needed someone to relate to. So I started just sharing my story and reaching out and finished writing actually my entire adoption story a couple of years ago

1:41and actually published that. And that was very healing for me as well. I work a full time job, the company called Honey Bee Print and the president there. What it is is like photo books. So you can jump on the website, make your own photo book, prints, calendars, anything that's customizable that we actually print from our warehouse just in Utah. So I run that. I do that. That takes up the majority of my day along with running the kids everywhere. So I have the two in college, one who's a junior in high school and then my youngest is in fifth grade.

2:15So I'm always at drill and wrestling and football. You're in the thick of it. When I'm not doing that, I'm obviously writing. I mean, that's really kind of my true passion. I enjoy doing yoga. I have a pretty consistent meditation practice that I do every now and then I jump in and do a few guided meditations at our local salt cave that we have, man-made salt cave. When I can actually do my own thing, that's what I like doing. That's awesome. Yeah.

2:46All right. Well, do you mind jumping in and sharing your adoption story with us? Yeah, of course. So I found out that I was pregnant when I was 19. I was in college and had been dating my boyfriend for a couple of years when we found out. We were actually on a break when I did find out that I was pregnant. And so when we had the conversation about it, his kind of first reaction was like, oh, you should get an abortion and this will all just go away. And I distinctively, I don't know why, because I've had conversations with other people that I went to high school with,

3:20but I like remember this health class or something that we had where an adoption clinic came in and did like a presentation kind of of what that kind of looks like when you do have an abortion. And I just remember sitting in that class thinking, oh my gosh, I don't think I could ever do that. And it stayed in my brain for some reason. So as I was having that conversation with him, I was just like, there's there's no way like I cannot. That's just doesn't seem like an option for me. So I moved home and kind of knew that I wasn't going to have birth dad support or he wasn't going to really be there.

3:52So as I think a lot of birth moms do, got super depressed for a couple of weeks and was kind of just in my room, like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing and where I'm going and what's happening. And I remember my sister came in and she was like, you need to get your crap together. Like, you got to make some decisions. You got to get up on your feet. You got to, you know, you can't just keep laying here. So I made the decision to actually move to Arizona and to live with my brother. And this was like, a lot of people when I tell them that are like, oh, your parents like shift you off, which is totally not what happens.

4:26They're very supportive. I learned a lot more about my parents side of it from actually writing the book after I entered that you then like years later. But at the time, everything seems great. They were there. They were supportive. They supported me in moving to Arizona. And that's where I started to really consider adoption. I remember specifically I was driving around one night and I'm like, I'm just like, I'm not going to stop until I like made this decision of what I'm supposed to do. And I think I had met with I ended up placing with LDS Family Services. So I think I had met with them a couple of times, but I can't really remember if I had or not.

5:01I remember just driving around and thinking I'm like, I have to make this decision. And so I just kept driving, driving, driving. I don't know if you've ever been to Arizona actually when the sky like the sky there is so gorgeous. I can still remember just the sun setting in everywhere I was at and made this mental list in my mind of all the reasons why I wanted to keep her. And all these reasons why I wanted to place. And as I was mentally like going through this list, I realized that like every reason that I wanted to keep her felt like reasons for me felt kind of like selfish reasons.

5:34And at the time, like literally one of the things on my list was like I want to dress her in cute clothes like I was 19 like I was excited to have this kind of doll to dress, you know, and I'm, I just remember thinking that and thinking, okay, this is, this is what I have to do this. This is what I'm going to do. So I met with LDS family services and started going through families at the time, which it was so long ago. It was like one sheet of kind of stats is what I would call it. So like, you know, the dad is six, two and weighs this much and this is ethnicity and it was just like a really basic kind of like resume almost.

6:12And then one page of a letter and maybe like a double sided like scrapbook page. I mean, that was pretty much it. So I met with my social worker and she put like 10 down on the table and I was just like, oh, so overwhelmed by all of it like I don't even. How do I even do this. I ended up taking four couples home. And I kind of just like shoved them under my bed. I was like, I don't, I don't really want to deal with this. That was one step that felt very final. And actually, there's like one thing to say, hey, I'm going to play. So this is my decision but to actually pick the couple that was that was a difficult step for me.

6:51When I was living in Arizona I was working two jobs and just staying busy and I remember one night I was laying on the floor and I like kind of looked on my bed had been a couple weeks and I saw the profiles and I was like, okay, I really need to take a look at these. So then one of the families, the adoptive mom had actually been adopted herself.

7:22And when she had been adopted there was something about that that felt very comforting and knowing that my daughter would be able to ask her questions or just whatever that she would have some type of knowledge about that situation and what was going on and so I remember calling my mom and kind of reading for the profile and we having a discussion about it and she's like this feels good like it feels good to you and so take the family in the middle of actually picking a family made the decision to also move home. And moved in with my parents, and I got a phone call from the agency and they said, the couple that you pick, they're also pregnant.

8:01And at the time it was like I don't know how it works now but with LDS family services back then it was like if you were pregnant they kind of took you off the list. And I didn't want to tell LDS family services because they she had miscarried so many times before. So they technically shouldn't had even been on the list to begin with. And so they're like hey you kind of have the opportunity either place with them still or totally pick a different family. And I was stressed I was like, man I don't. I don't want to pick again you know like that seems really weird. I remember talking to a friend about it and he was saying he was like I think that's cool like okay so now she gets to have a sibling and I was like, oh okay this is really like so much more simpler than I'm

8:44making it so made the decision to actually stay with them and she ended up having a baby. Six weeks after I placed so they grew up, kind of like twins, right before I can't remember how close it was to placing but back then we did. And that was the only time I actually met them. I remember what they called it but we met for maybe like two hours, and that was the first time I had been face to face with the couple. And my mom came with me. And I was traveling from Utah to Arizona because she had a high risk pregnancy, and I didn't so we actually went to them and spent a couple hours just kind of getting to know them asking questions you know just like a basic kind of what felt weird is like

9:26you almost you know like it was really weird. But still felt really, really confident in my decision that was one thing that like once I made it and felt very strong about it and had like this really good confirmation of it. I didn't really go back or jump back and forth at all. It's still decisions along the way we're still difficult but there was never like, oh I'm not going to do this right. I carried completely full term, went into delivery a couple of days before my due date.

9:59And there was some complications with my delivering stuff that happened and so there wasn't this, I kind of had this like idea in my mind of like what you see in the movies where you like deliver and the babies like put on your chest right and there's this whole loving moment and that that didn't really happen it was like did the delivery, and which was emotional and beautiful, and then she was kind of whisked away and there was complications with her and complications with me and I remember feeling like really panic that I wasn't going to

10:30like, get that moment with her, or really nervous that someone had kind of come and taken her and I was not going to have that moment. And I remember the social worker coming in and trying to like explain things to me while I was very emotional with what was going on and they had actually moved me to the recovery room before I had even really gone to see her and hold her. I remember looking at my mom and I was like, I haven't even, I haven't even seen her, like I don't have even held her. And my mom put me in the wheelchair we went into the nursery and she had been hooked up to some tubes and stuff so she had some breathing problems, the nurse kind of untangled there from the wires and stuff you know and put her in my arms.

11:10And the first thing I thought was or that I heard was this is not your baby. It was so clear and so intense that no one could have prepared me for that. No one could have said like, this is the emotion you're going to feel or this is because for me, and it was still there, I was kind of like, oh what if I like can't let her go what if I can't. I didn't want to but it was so clear in my mind and so, so clear that this is exactly what I was supposed to be doing. And as beautiful as that was, and as much as it build my confidence to keep going on and making that decision it was also really hard to realize that

11:53I was kind of just this vessel to get her to earth you know I was writing quite a bit back then too and that's when I actually ended up writing the My Little Butterfly poem that's kind of circulated around adoption community I think for a while. Our daughter's birth mom gave us that poem framed as a placement present yeah. Awesome. I ended up writing that like that night, like after I held her I kind of went back to the room and it just just kind of flowed, I had a couple days in the hospital with her.

12:25And then we ended up taking her home to my parents house, which from now that I know it seems to be really unusual I think for a lot of birth moms but we had a day. I think we did a full Sunday, and placement was supposed to take place like on Monday, the next morning. And back then it was like you had this choice of doing kind of a handoff, or you would give the baby to social worker and the social worker would give the baby to adoptive couple. So, because her adoptive mom was in that high risk pregnancy, her adoptive dad had traveled to Utah to do kind of handoff so it was just him and I that did that part of it but she came home to my parents

13:08house and all of my family came. And they all just, you know, got to hold her and spend time with her and we took a ton of pictures and, and the, the entire time from delivery on just kind of felt like I was above my body. I felt like I was really present in what was going on, like it was just kind of like going through the motions and I remember talking to my social worker Sunday night she was like hey like Monday comes if you're not ready let us know like we're on your timeline

13:40and. So we woke up Monday morning and I was like if I don't do this now there's no way, like, I'm going to be able to let her go you know. So we met all these family services, and her adoptive dad came in, and he is huge he's like, six four I think I was six four actually, but I just remember how big and strong and how tiny she looked like when I actually handed her to him and knowing that he would forever protect her and be there for her and just having that confidence like, okay, this is, this is

14:18okay you know, it was really short and sweet that kind of section of it I did have time with her on my own, kind of in the office there before he came in but one of the really vivid memories to is just driving home with my parents with that empty car seat was just like, it was like, I was like, my dad has just torture.

14:49And I was just kind of looking at and knowing she wasn't coming back and I wasn't going to be there, she wasn't going to be there. I spent a lot of time just a not part of it kind of going through this grieving process that at the time is very, it's a disenfranchised grief right it's like, especially back then nobody really had education on what the birth mom was experiencing because nobody was talking about it. It's always been such a maybe a full pause the word I'm looking for of just so much guilt and shame wrapped around this pregnancy

15:23before you're married that I think there's been such a lack of education, especially 20 years ago when I placed. Nobody really knew, and I remember looking at my mom and thinking, like she can't even help me there like there's no way for her to fully understand what I'm going through. And then I got married shortly like after. Let's see I had her in October. And then I was engaged by November the end of November, not to her, not to her birth father and married in February, and pregnant again, like in May, so everything moved really really quickly,

16:07and part of that also had to do with just the emotions and everything of trying to find this space or fill this space that was really missing in my life that December after is when I had this idea of, hey I want to do some kind of like a service project I had done one every year when I was in high school some family or something and I was like this year for Christmas I want to do something just for birth moms. And that's when I came up with the idea of the baskets that we started doing, because when I left the hospital.

16:39I left with all the formula samples and the diaper bag and all of that stuff that like you don't ever use or need, you know, you're kind of like, why, why are you giving this to me. And so I turned around and just gave it to her adoptive parents, ended up doing gift baskets for birth moms so when you're in the hospital it was like, they would kind of bring you a basket it was full of bath salts and blankets and a letter from a birth mom so you knew that you were not alone. Just anything that seemed to be pampering.

17:10And I had a goal I think 2040 baskets that I wanted to fill that first Christmas and I literally I mean this is how long ago as I started flipping through like the yellow pages, looking for companies that I was like maybe they would have something they would donate and just calling people and that it exploded, the first Christmas it was like insane and doing like 150 baskets or something and. And then companies that can donate that first Christmas kept calling me and saying oh are you still doing this we want to donate and that's how it all kind of spiraled into becoming a nonprofit and me speaking out and just this whole thing that was way bigger

17:48than I thought. But as far as the communication with with her parents and that whole part of it back then with LDS family services, it was. I had letters and letters for the first five years. So I knew they were in Arizona but I know exactly where I wasn't allowed to know their last name, every letter and everything that I sent went through all these family services they would read through it before they would send it I mean it was all screened all of it. And for the first five years it was great, we knew a lot about what was going on with her and she was very much a part of our lives and running the baskets helped a lot, I think with my grief

18:27it was kind of like, I want her to know that we're still thinking about her that she's still a part of our lives and and really focusing on like serving the other birth moms was my way of kind of being like hey I can't really reach out and be there for you so I'm just going to kind of serve this community and make it a part of my life because that's, that's all I could really do at the time. I do specifically remember one time actually LDS family services would call you, and not to talk crap on all these family services anyway

18:57but it was just the processes of what they did back then you know and I'm they would call and say hey you have a letter, come down to the agency and pick it up or whatever and I knew that my social worker read it but I didn't realize that like, everyone in the office was kind of reading them. I remember walking in one day and like the secretary at the front desk, I was like, she was looking at pictures and reading something. And she was a younger girl and I said hey I have, you know I have a letter. This is my name. And she was like, oh, and so she folded it up and put it in the envelope and handed it to me.

19:31And I was just like, Oh my gosh, are you serious. I mean it became kind of. I can laugh about it now I can laugh about a lot of this now because my story, as you know has ended, very, very well, but at the time it kind of felt like my life was on show. It was like something some entertainment for people when I'm like hey I'm really grieving here and this is real life for me and this is hard this is how I communicate with my daughter, and you're getting to know all of this before I even see it.

20:06And that was really, that was really hard. As I stayed in the adoption community I started to see the evolution of open adoption and these birth moms coming in and having more relationships with their parents and that was really hard. And it was like, I couldn't quite understand why they got to have that but I didn't get to have that you know it was, it was frustrating at first, after the first five years letters went to a letter and a picture every year on her birthday, but we weren't allowed

20:37to send anything. So it was only them sending communication to us, which seemed really weird to me at the time, I know now why that was the case but we ended up getting just updates from from her parents, and I mean, as much as I love them, it was still like every year the letter was late, and never came on time it was like, it was just it was difficult after that first five years to fill a part of her life really of what was going on.

21:08So I think it was shortly after she turned 10. My husband at the time was at work, and he got a phone call, and it being her adoptive dad, which we didn't know he like me where we lived or our names like nothing right so he's like, so my husband at the time calls me and he says, Hey, we need to talk about work and I'm thinking, like, what's going on. And I was pregnant with our third, I had had two miscarriages before that and was, and was pregnant with jet, and he came home from work and he said, Kaylin's adoptive dad called me at work today and I was

21:44just like what at first my first thought was she had passed like something tragic had happened with her. And he said he called to tell me that they're getting divorced. And I was crushed. I mean I'm not. I am now divorced so I'm not naive in the sense that relationships and but there was something about it when I made the decision to have. I didn't want to see her going back and forth from house to house you know and I felt like if I had chose to parent that I wasn't sure if her birth that would be coming back and how that relationship would be and what that would look like and I think at the

22:25time for you and even probably still now, you get this idea of a birth mom like that your child's going to live this fantasy life that you have picked this perfect family and this perfect couple and she will have no trials and nothing bad will happen to him and it's like this castle in the sky that's completely unattainable, but nobody had really talked to me about that or prepare me for that. I remember being very very upset and thinking how fortunate I was that I was pregnant at the time, because I got really depressed about it I didn't want to get up and take care of myself I didn't want to.

23:04I was kind of just like oh my gosh especially because I got married so quickly after I was like we could have kept her we could have, you know, raise her on her own work together like we could have been a family like all these thoughts of just. And like I said I had never really gone back on my decision until that point when I was like okay this is, this is hard this is different you know, and it kind of died out and it just became, it was like hey this is reality and this is what happens and I've since found out a lot of information stuff about that situation but at the time it was, it was pretty tragic for me in thinking that this little castle that I thought I had sacrificed so much to give her was kind of now broken you know,

23:47the year she turned 17. I had always wanted to write my adoption story, it had just kind of been something that was always in the back of my mind I had started it, but it was crap. My first draft was horrible, horrible horrible, and I was working in corporate America running as you know, an art studio at the time with a local scrapbooking company and just working non stop, and I came home from work one day and told my husband at the time I was like I'm, I'm going to quit my job and write, and he was just like what the crap.

24:21I mean he knew that I had always wanted to but he was just kind of like, you're making good money that we need supporting these kids and I was like I have to do it like if I don't, I've got to do it. So I quit in August, the year that she turned 17, and really started diving back into my story and every detail of it and I was lucky enough that I had journaled through 90% of it so it was just as difficult to go back and kind of read through and,

24:55like I said I had gone and interviewed my parents and asked them a lot of questions of just like what did you feel when I came and told you that I was pregnant, what were your thoughts and one of the things that was really shocking to me was one the guilt that I had of feeling like my dad actually that was the first thing he said was, I felt like I failed you. When you first told me, and he didn't speak to me after I told him I was pregnant for like two weeks.

25:25It was really more him processing everything he's very quiet man, he's not confrontational at all. But for me I was like oh my dad is so upset like we, he's not even talking to me you know and it wasn't even till 17 years later that I started to really understand more what the science was about and it was his own guilt, like as a father and the other thing that was really shocking was the way the community acted towards them, and I didn't realize the backlash that they were kind of getting that of that as my parents and even

25:58the fact that I was that I had picked adoption there was a couple people that even said like how could you let her do that. I can't believe you're supporting her, and I didn't know that I had no idea that was going on until years later so I started writing my book in August, because I had stayed in the community so much. She was very much a part of our lives so we had pictures of her in our house. My kids have all known from the time they could talk that she was a part of our family or was a sister that you know lived in

26:30Arizona basically so lots of times my kids and maybe like think that they saw her at school or at the bus stop or maybe like mom I saw Kalin today like I swear it was her and would have to have these conversations about this right. So over that same year that I had decided to quit my job and start writing the book, my daughter that I raised Evie, we were up at Trolley Square, she had tried out for this dance production, like against 60 other girls and she wants to be a professional dancer

27:01and I was like hey why don't we go up to this audition just to kind of give you an idea of how auditions run and and we'll see how it goes and she ended up making it, which was amazing. So I would go up and sit and just kind of wait for her for three or four hours as she did these practices and this day in October it was a couple of weeks after Kalin had just turned 17 and Evie and I were there and the particular practice that we were at I was actually in the storefront so the old storefront had turned into kind of like a dance studio

27:32and that's where they would practice and so people that were in the mall would walk by and kind of watch them or whatever. They were trying on costumes and wigs and doing all the stuff so I would happen to be sitting inside the inside the studio and Evie's looking out into the hallway where all the mall people are walking around and she's like mom I see that girl standing out there watching looks just like Kalin and I was like oh really like I'm just kind of helping her with her wig and I mean my kids had said it so many times that I didn't even look back to see and she was like yeah and she was like no really she's in a BYU sweatshirt and at the time I thought she wanted Kalin wanted to go to school law school at BYU. So when she said that I was kind of like oh wait like I could be her and so I just like turned back and I don't even see her.

28:21I see her adoptive dad and he's just kind of like hey and I mean I mean keep in mind I haven't seen her since she was four days old not in real life anyway. So I turned back to Evie and I'm like that's her like that and I was just I grabbed the mom next to me who I didn't even know it was just some random dance mom. And I'm like the baby that I placed for adoption 17 years ago is standing in the hallway and she's just looking at me like what the crap.

28:54And I'm like, I didn't, I don't know what to do. What do I, what do I do. I had been so accustomed to these rules that have been set around our relationship and around what I was allowed to do right. So I get up and I go to the door, and I stop, because I'm like, okay, she's not 18. I don't know if they want me to be out there. I have no idea. Is she ready is she not am I ready like I just kind of freeze at the door and you can't see out the window from the door where I was standing.

29:30So I'm like, I'm just gonna stand here for just a second, just to give him the opportunity to make the decision, and I definitely didn't want to walk out and see them walking away. So I'm like, I'm just, I'm just gonna wait for just a minute. And the dance mom after she goes you. When you turned like you got to the door and you turned and look like out the dancers with your face was just pure shock like, holy crap. And I don't know how long it was it was probably only like 30 seconds but it felt like forever.

30:03And I kind of lean over and look out the window again to just see if they're there. And I see her dad and he's like going like this like, come on out. So I open up the door and by the time I'd open up the door she was walking into so she was like right there. And we just hugged and my whole body is just like shaking even when I tell all these years later I still can't like the emotion is so strong but we. It was like being whole again, I don't know any other way to describe it but just there had been constantly this whole in my life, and I, for a long time tried to feed it and fill it with anything and everything, and I just accepted it was there.

30:48And then when I saw her it was just, it was overflowing with just love and there are not proper words to even describe it, I don't know how to even. I would love to give that to people to be like, this is the strongest feeling I think we can have here on earth of just unconditional love completely. We hug, and we're both just looking at each other like what is going on. She happened to be there with her adoptive dad, her brother, and then she had, they had another sibling as well so she had a younger sister.

31:31That was also full biological so she was the only one adopted and then her cousin, and so they were there visiting her cousin and decided to just walk around trolley square, like, randomly. The same evening that we ended up being there and they could hear the music and the commotion everything that was going on so they stopped to watch. And that was what happened so her dad looked at me and just said, we're not in a rush, like if you guys want to go take a half hour and just talk or. And I remember looking in and thinking, I don't.

32:03I don't want to go by myself with her. I was so nervous I was what am I going to say like I just remember feeling panicky like, okay, I don't really know what I'm supposed to do here was just so so unusual and so not expected at all. So we find a bench and we sit down, and she said, I knew this was going to happen. And I was like, what, like, how, and she's like I started seeing butterflies everywhere, like just all over the place.

32:37And she, we gave her the poem, you know when I placed and so she had the poem and knew that that's what we call there was a lot of butterflies. And then she had had a lesson at church, where one of her leaders had brought in an article or something and it happened to be one that I had written. And she said to Caitlin she's like I think this is your birth mom because there was a little like picture of me on there. And Caitlin was like yeah, yep, that's my birth mom like. So she said when my dad came to me and said, we're going to go to Utah because she knew I lived in Utah for fall break. She goes I just, I just knew, I just knew something was going to happen.

33:15That's amazing. That is so amazing. It is the crazy I still don't believe it and I'm the one that was sitting in it like I can't even the whole idea of me just quitting my job and really jumping into writing the book, and then reprocessing all the grief and everything that I had gone through and trying to heal that really child in me so that I could continue on with my life. And then for it to end that way it was like oh this is how the book's going to end like that I literally just it comes full circles and it was, it was, it's really unbelievable.

33:54It really is so her adoptive dad his side of the story kind of is that the kids are standing there watching. And he walked up and saw the back of my head. And at the time I had kind of like a bow hawk. And he was like nobody else has their hair like that. So he's kind of looking and he walked to the side more to see if you could see my profile. And he was like, Okay, that's her. And he said by the time he'd walked back to the kids. He noticed that Evie had noticed it was that it was them.

34:25And he turned to Kalen and said, Your birth mom's in that room. Do you want to meet her. And she was like, Yeah, they do. So that's what was happening. While Evie and I were processing and I'm standing at the door freaking out like do I walk out there and. And we did we chatted for a half hour, and we exchanged phone numbers, and I remember putting her phone, like her number in my phone and she's like, Do you know how to spell my name I'm like yes I know how to spell your name.

34:57We just kind of laughed about it. I was like, Yes, I do. I've been writing your name for a long time. And they left, and I got a text from her, maybe five minutes after she walked away and said, I love you, let's not go another 17 years before I see you again. And I knew at that point, like everything was going to change. So the first year I still kept kind of this communication of like, she's not 18, she's still living at home, I'm going to let her kind of drive how much we talk and what happens and what that looks like.

35:37And then once she decided to move out and go to school and kind of started this own life her and I started to really build this relationship that's become really the most beautiful thing, I mean, I've gotten to see her and I've stayed with her and her friends, and I've met her boyfriend. I know her life and I know her and it's, it's been amazing. Yeah. That's incredible. Can't even imagine like even in a Hallmark movie like that doesn't happen.

36:12You know, looked out the window and there she is. I know I still like I said I still can't even, I really can't believe myself, I feel like the luckiest but I also feel a lot of guilt in the sense that I get to have this story, because I worked for so long with birth moms that like this is not the story that I want to tell you, I don't know how it ends or open adoptions become closed or relationships with the adoptive parents that they thought were healthy or not you know they've I mean, you name it I've heard it every story, every placement is different

36:50and I'm sure you guys have seen as well and if there has been a lot of me trying to process and realize that it's okay for me to have this story, because it's so hard for me to think about the other birth moms that that don't get it I don't, I don't understand why I get it. But I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing that that was fantastic. We, we have some questions some follow up you mentioned when you were telling your story about, you know, finding out you were pregnant and not really being familiar at all with adoption anything that you would add around that anyone that you knew that had placed or anything

37:27else at all you knew, like, what, what was your knowledge. I mean, basically what I knew was kind of what you saw on TV. I mean, I knew that there were a couple kids at school that were adopted, but I didn't realize like, what that meant, or what a birth mom even was, I mean I didn't. Basically, the strongest knowledge I had was from that abortion presentation, and it was like, if you don't do abortion then your next option is adoption. And I just remember that sticking in my head like oh okay.

38:01Cool, like, but that was really it. I didn't have anything else. So what do you wish that somebody had told you before your first daughter was born. I think probably more just the emotions, the emotional aspect of the entire process, I won't lie and say it hasn't affected every area of my life, because it has. It definitely made me a better mother. I mean, it drove me to also be a better person to I think I'd wanted.

38:31For her to find me one day and not want to be a part of my life. So it really drove me and just becoming something that she or someone that she'd want to be a part of. And I don't know if that drive would have been there without that, but I wish somebody would have said hey this, it will stay with you. You know it's a decision that doesn't go away and it affects you as a mother, it affects you as a wife and as a friend and every, you know it rippled through my entire family rippled through my parents and even my niece, who very much remembers all of it like

39:07coming to Utah, a year after I ran into her, and she got to meet the rest of my family. So she spent time with my parents and in fact after I saw her at the mall. I called my parents and say like, are you sitting down, like, I gotta tell you this right. And my dad, of course they had this initial crazy shot but my dad said, before I die, my hope is to stand in the kitchen with her, have this conversation and I remember feeling that pressure like I don't know if I can give that to you like that's a lot but

39:39a year later that he ended up standing in my kitchen, talking to her and meeting everybody and, but I wish somebody would have said like, here are some skills. Here are some things that you're going to experience, and then it's, it's not going to go away. It's not going to be this fantasy or perfect life. So kind of on the same lines. What type of pre placement and post placement counseling did you receive or was was available to you back then.

40:09Oh man, there wasn't much I mean I think at the time all these family services was doing the best they really knew how to do, I think, I mean, I had a social worker that was assigned to me and we did do kind of like groups with the other birth moms that were in the agency, and it felt more. It was more of a conversation of what's the decision you're going to make, it wasn't geared towards just moms that replacing or just moms that were parenting it was kind of like having this discussion of what this looks like.

40:43And after it, it's nothing really I mean I'm sure I had a few sessions I think with my social worker after but not the therapy that I really needed, which is also why I started becoming more of a voice because it was like, I need someone who can relate to this I need someone who, who knows what this feels like you know, very, very minimal. So you mentioned after Caitlin was born. You had health complications and things weren't going really how you wanted. And so looking back at placement is there, and that whole time in the hospital and everything.

41:18Is there anything that you wish had happened differently, but you had control over, or, or that anyone had control over not just you. Yeah, I think it was just probably more someone there who had been through the process to be like, you know, my mom didn't know that I was in there panicking after delivery and they sweep her away and I'm thinking they took her like they're not going to bring her back because they did that a lot to you know back in the day of nine oh now because I've talked to a lot of birth moms have just like you would deliver and thought it was going to be one way and they would just take your baby you never see him again.

41:52But I was like at the moment it was like my mom didn't know that that was a worry for me. So I'm like even just have someone there like hey, maybe this emotions coming up for you right now or what are you feeling or just being a little more attentive to the process of this is what's happening. As far as placement stuff that goes I guess really honestly I just wish everything would have been more open. I mean I would have been happy to have them, the adoptive couple like in the delivery room, more a part of.

42:22How beautiful would it have been had it all been at my parents house, you know when my family's coming over to say goodbye to her and take pictures and I can see that now like I wish that would have been an option. But yeah, that's probably probably just more support of someone who'd actually been through it. So I know that you've shared your story for a long time that you were pretty open kind of advocate for birth mothers in the beginning of your story and for a long time. I guess with all of that experience now under your belt.

42:53What are some things that you wish others either new to the adoption community or outside the adoption community. What do you what do you hope that they would know or come to know about birth moms. I think that one, every adoption story and every birth mom is so different. It's so different, and the empathy that I think is needed around the entire process, not only just for birth moms but for adoptees and for adoptive couples and I mean this is a situation and something that we have just created, a lot of people don't really understand the

43:28emotions and what we all go through. I mean because I know that there's a lot on your guys's side as well. And for your kids and so I'm like I think it's just having this empathy and understanding of non judgment to why the decisions were made, or why you chose adoption where I chose adoption and what that looks like for your family. At the time when I felt like nobody was speaking out.

43:58I just had this thought of like, there's so much love circled around what's happening in my decision and I felt so confident in it that I'm like why should I feel ashamed of that of something that came so purely from my heart. And I think that's the biggest decision is her parents make that decision. So I think it's the biggest thing would probably just be empathy to why people make the decision that they make. When your daughter was 10 you got that phone call about how her adoptive parents were getting divorced.

44:33And after that, did you ever find out how they got your contact information was there any kind of conversation about hey maybe this could open up. It kind of opened up a little bit after that. More with her adoptive dad than with her mom. He started kind of emailing a little bit, giving us a little more information about what was going on with her and the situation and stuff. He said he always just kept track of where we're at, in case he needed to know for any emergency or anything and I don't know specifically how that happened I just know that he always, I guess knew where we were, because I was so much more in the adoption

45:14community to I didn't realize that he had been following that entire time he knew what we were doing with the baskets and where I had been speaking and kind of been following all of it so it was, it was pretty cool actually but I don't know how. Yeah, cool. Sorry I'm still just wrapping my mind around you. But I mean I guess I guess it does make sense like if you are really kind of prominent in the adoption community at the time, and kind of this face for birth mothers and helping be an advocate for birth mothers and that it would be easier to see you in the public

45:48space and kind of have an idea what you're doing but still my parents names, I think he just got really investigative and figured it out. Yeah, we didn't have Facebook back then to do like Facebook stocking so you know. So, how do you feel really old. It's so crazy how different it is it's really weird to look back and think that was 21 years ago or so. Yeah, it's so different. It's so different it really I mean I really watched it evolve, honestly.

46:22And one of the reasons why I decided to step away from birth mother baskets to is because there was a lot of birth moms that started to start their own nonprofits are really speaking out and it became a lot more open there was like this need of as much healing, I don't think, once there became this open family unit of everybody, and I just didn't feel like I was as needed as it started to open up and become more. And a lot of that happened to around the divorce to have just kind of feeling like, I'm not sure that I can have a positive voice right now for it to be effective and prominent in the way that I wanted it to be so it did step away for quite a while.

47:05You mentioned, leaving your full time job to start writing this book. And that ultimately led to you meeting which is awesome. Tell us a little bit about that process of writing and maybe a little bit about the book and where people can find that if they're interested. So the right I mean the writing is there is something just like so romantic about writing, I don't know why I love it I just do I, I thought I would actually love the ending piece more but it's actually the entire journey which is so cliche, I mean that's how it always

47:36goes right. Yeah, I just really dove into journals and getting down to the nitty gritty of emotions of making the decision to place and even just the emotions of finding out that I was pregnant and growing up in a religious community and how that affected the kids and how it played into raising our kids and the mom that I was and really kind of living this life of grief that I didn't realize was even grief for a long time I think, but it's just more detailed, a lot more emotional of the entire process of what

48:13I went through and dealing with agencies and letters and conversations with people who didn't agree with what I was doing and how I felt about doing birth mother baskets and some stories behind that too. And then ultimately like I said just finally running into her and and filling this kind of hole in my heart and you know there's some stuff in there about the therapy that I went through and what I learned in that process as well. And it's something that I just knew I would always do. I love that it's there I don't typically promote it that much it's just kind of in this space and I'm glad that I have it and my all my kids now have read it when we actually did the book launch,

48:55I was 19 when I got pregnant with Kaylin, and I finished the book right before her 19th birthday. So we did this huge book launch on her birthday and she was there and her adoptive mom was there and it was just so incredible so. But you can get it on Amazon. So, the printed version there or you can actually do it on Kindle as well. And remind us the title of it. A seemingly unfillable heart. Okay. Well we'll put a link to it in our show notes if people are interested, and it's been fascinating to listen to your story too so I'm pretty sure I'm going to go buy it right when we're done.

49:30Good, I hope so. I hope you enjoy it. Awesome. So, how do you think placing your first child affected parenting and your perceptions and feelings about parenting with your younger kids. Oh yeah I think it changed everything, really, became this understanding of realizing how precious that relationship is that not everyone has that, that it's not just, you know, we think about, like, building a family and going through that and becoming pregnant

50:03and it's like you don't realize the complications that come up from that it's just this story when you're little like oh I'm going to be a mom. You don't realize like how many bumps in the road can affect that you know so I felt this incredible amount of gratitude that I was able to, to do that, for one, I had. So we actually ended up having a few miscarriages so I had one right after my oldest. So we had Kaylin. And then we had JD and then I was carried. Then we had Evie, and I had to miss characters before we had jet.

50:37And so I was also very familiar with the loss and the grief that came from that. And the last two is actually pretty far along and so there was, we did a couple of DNCs and stuff like that and so I realized how much motherhood is a gift. And how quickly it can be taken as well. So, in the beginning, there was a lot of times I remember JD got really sick. When he was younger and I remember just pleading with God or the universe whoever like, please do not take him from me because I thought I was

51:08kind of destined to not be a mom. And a lot of that came from that first idea of like hey this is, this is not your baby, like this is and I just thought oh my gosh if you, if you take another one from me I don't know if I can do it again you know and I just, and he wasn't even that sick, it wasn't even a logical thought. And so I was just after that thinking, this is very deeply rooted in me that I have this fear that they will die or someone will take them or I would have dreams a lot that they would be taken from me and, and even still actually 21 years later when things

51:44are really going good in my life. I think people have very similar dreams of that happening I think that's just kind of the trauma around it but it just brought a lot more gratitude, it made every moment more precious because I knew it wasn't something that everyone got to experience and I knew how quickly it could be taken. So in the adoption community from the time where we were taking a baby away from their birth mother from the hospital and they never see them again to where we are now.

52:14I think that's a lot of things but the adoption community still faces a lot of challenges. What are some of those challenges that you still see, and maybe any thoughts or recommendations for how we might improve that still. I think one thing that even I still deal with and I see some of my other birth moms who placed when I did is the open adoptions becoming closed for some reason, or not knowing the reason that all communication just all of a sudden stops you know. I think, really the biggest thing from my side and where I'm at is just that communication between us as the birth mom and the adoptive couple and how to keep that relationship healthy, and how to kind of have that same empathy for each other that we also want

53:00to see around the idea of adoption and what it really is. I think it's really easy to kind of make judgments on people's decisions and, and it's hard to keep that unity but just, you can never have too many people who love your kid right like it doesn't. It doesn't matter. It's kind of like that sometimes I think about that and I'm like, now and I wish that my three kids had some birth mom that was like, I want to just spoil you rotten and think about you all the time and so I think more the issue and what's going on is just continue to

53:38educate ourselves on how to keep that open and keep that unity and keep it healthy for everybody so that it can stay open. I love that. Yeah, me too. Is there anything else that you want to talk about today. I don't think so. I said a lot. Oh, so good. Thank you so much for being with us. No problem.

54:23Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project and thank you so much to Gina for sharing her story, and so many of her thoughts with us today. I love how raw and how honest, Gina is about all of the things that she was going through and all of these feelings and emotions. We actually just got our copy in the mail of her book. It's called a seemingly unfillable heart. That's by Gina cross CROTTS and we've only read a little bit so far and it's really really good we highly recommend it you can get it on Amazon,

54:56we'll put a link to Amazon in the show notes. I love so much of what Gina shared with us a couple things resonate with me are kind of sticking with me. And one that I want to highlight is just what she was talking about at the end, where we need to do all that we can in the adoption community to make sure that communication between adoptive parents and birth parents is as clear as possible, and open. Yeah, for sure, especially when we promise openness, or when, when openness is promised in a situation to keep the promises that we're making. Yeah, just follow through with your promises.

55:38Yeah, I really like that that that sentiment is just really stuck with me from this episode. Yeah, I agree that's so important. And honestly, I mean just jaw dropping turn of events and her reunification story with her daughter was incredible and beautiful and just wow, right. Yeah, you I mean you heard my reaction during the episode but I can't even like comprehend how, how many moving parts had to come together for that to happen.

56:11Yeah, so incredible and yeah she's just a wonderful person we loved talking to her and we're so happy that we got to share part of her story with you today on the podcast. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll be back next week with another episode.

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