Sarah | Adoption Isn't Always Beautiful

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lynette. And I'm Sean. In today's episode, we will be having an interview with Sarah. She is a birth mother from Florida and is a birth mother of two. And she's a really great person to listen to speak. She's a really eloquent speaker and she really just shares her story so well. She talks about the different nuances of challenges she's been through and the experiences from placing both of her children in the same adoptive family.

0:37And how that's looked over the years, how it's evolved and changed. For me, I think a lot of her story highlights the importance of post placement care for birth parents, making sure that they receive counseling and that there's somebody there just to help and check up and to make sure that they're doing okay. She highlighted that a lot. Yeah, and I love always the themes of open adoption and how the different levels of openness affected every aspect of her relationship with her kids and how she was feeling.

1:13Anyway, she is wonderful to listen to. We know you're going to love this episode. Sarah is all about education in the adoption community and has an Instagram that is Adoption Education Keys and is definitely one worth following if you're part of the adoption community. So we encourage you to go there and check it out. We hope you enjoy this episode with Sarah. All right, we are here on the podcast with Sarah.

1:45Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. Thanks. All right. To start off, can we have you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you? Absolutely. So my name is Sarah Schmidt and I am a two time birth mother. I have an open adoption with an 18 year old son and a 20 year old daughter. They were both adopted through domestic infant adoption. And it's been open for the most part. I used to say it was always open, but really, it's kind of been semi open part of the way through there.

2:21But it's so far it's been a very interesting experience. So I am also a parent. I parent a four and a half year old son with my husband, who I met a long time after I placed. So I'm very thankful for him because he definitely showed up in my life when I didn't think anything was going to happen like that anymore. So so I have a husband, I have a son that I parent and we just moved to Florida.

2:55So we're both from Southern California and that's where we met. And he kind of got drug along for the ride on our first date. I told him, I'm planning on moving to Utah for a couple of years. So if you don't want to move, we probably shouldn't date. And so so he was totally fine with that. The only place he's ever lived is Southern California. And so I brought him to Utah for five years and then I brought him to Florida. So we've come all the way across the country in the last five years of our relationship.

3:26So but I love music. I love writing. My husband and I love collecting vinyl. And so we're constantly listening to records and hitting up old record stores. I love to collage, you know, that old school, like cutting out magazines and making things. And yeah, I'm old. But I did just turn 40. So that's kind of a big accomplishment.

3:57Never necessarily thought I would make it this far in life. So I'm really glad that I have and super feel blessed that I have gotten to this point with everything that I've been through. So that's a little bit about me. Awesome. Quick question. California or Florida? Which one's better? Oh, man, that's a hard choice because California. Oh, it is so expensive to live there. And that was the main reason we decided to come to Florida, because we wanted to be by

4:32the beach again. Both of us are huge beach people. But we can't afford to live by the beach in California. We can afford to live by the beach in Florida. And my family all lives over here. They're all in Georgia, North Carolina, Arkansas, Kentucky. So it's they're kind of all over the place down south. And so we were really far away from them. So I kind of have to say Florida, but I feel kind of bad saying that. California is my home state.

5:02The water is definitely warmer here, the beaches are definitely nicer. I'm sorry, California. I love it. It's OK. We've been to both places and they both have their perks. They both have their ups. Yes, yes, they do. They do indeed. And I will say that Florida's people are a little bit nicer. People kind of like to keep to themselves in California. And so Florida is definitely I feel more community oriented. So that's also very helpful.

5:33Yeah. Awesome. Well, thanks for helping us get to know you a little bit. We are excited to hear some of your experiences as a birth mother and how kind of all of that played out. So why don't we just have you jump in and just share your adoption stories. Perfect. I grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor and a youth pastor when I was little. I was a honeymoon baby.

6:04So my parents and I kind of grew up together because they were both pretty young when they had me. They were 21 and 26, relatively young, not crazy young. But growing up in a household that I did, I learned some things that made me feel different about myself as I was growing up, because, you know, you're taught things like don't have sex before marriage and making sure that that is not happening.

6:36And I didn't really receive that memo in the way that I should have. And so I went to my parents alma mater for college. It was the only college that I applied to. And my family was living in Georgia and the alma mater was in California. So I moved all the way across the country to go to school. And it was kind of like, let freedom reign for Sarah, because now I'm not under the thumb. I don't have anyone watching me.

7:06I can do whatever I want. Oh, my gosh. This is way too much freedom for me. So I took that freedom to heart. And I was in a relationship and I found out that I was pregnant my freshman year of college. And it was my second semester. I came back from Christmas break and pretty much went straight from the airport to the drugstore to get a pregnancy test and sobbed in my dorm room for 12 hours after I found

7:41out. And so the whole telling my parents thing was like not going to do that. So I talked to my boyfriend and we decided to go to a clinic and talk about our options. And we got a false pregnancy test, a false negative at the clinic. So I was doing cartwheels in the parking lot. Like I don't have to worry about this anymore. My parents aren't going to hate me. You don't have to think about the one thing that I never wanted to think about, which

8:12is abortion. So awesome. This is awesome. This is great. Wonderful. All the things. But then womanly things still didn't happen. So I went to the college campus clinic and that's where I was met with this amazing lady named Beth. And she was actually she was a resource nurse for a pregnancy resource center. She volunteered there and she also worked at the college.

8:42And when I approached her, I was like, you know, I can't do this. Once I got another positive test, I was like, this can't happen for me. This is not an option. I cannot do this. I'm a 19 year old girl. This is not what my parents ever wanted for me. I was so afraid that they were going to disown me, that I was going to be this huge disappointment. My dad is a very prolific person in his field and does a lot of MC events and works for a lot of major, major corporations and all of this stuff.

9:13And I was like, his reputation is going to be out the window. I cannot do this. And so I left the clinic ready to make an abortion appointment. And when that happened, I made the appointment for a Friday and the Monday before my appointment happened, I got a phone call from my parents and my dad, I basically answered the phone and my dad was like, are you pregnant? And I was like, sort of.

9:46And he was like, how can you be sort of pregnant? And I was like, well, why are you asking me this? And apparently word had kind of rumors stirring on campus and because it was my parents alma mater, they had a lot of friends that still worked there. Word had gotten back to my parents and I was like, yes, I am. And they were like, OK, so let's talk about what you're going to do.

10:20And at the time, I the only thing I knew was that now abortion was off the table and now I had to make a parenting decision. I had to decide if I was going to parent or if I was going to place for adoption. Really adoption for me growing up, we had had a lot of friends that had adopted. We had I knew people that were adoptees like adoption to me was. Pretty it was a beautiful thing.

10:50It was something that saved people's lives. And those terms kind of make me cringe right now to use because that's how I used to view adoption. But I think that I thought, well, the real story is my boyfriend came to see me one night and this is after my parents knew. And he said, because your parents found out, I told my parents and they said you need to marry me.

11:21And I was like, is is that a proposal? Am I supposed to say yes to that? Is that like it just felt so. Obligational and and so in that moment, I threw adoption in his face like, oh, no, I'm going to do adoption. And I think in the back of my head, I was going, please say no. Please fight for us. Please tell me no. I love you.

11:51I love this baby. I want us to do this together. And the look of relief that crossed his face when I said that was just devastating. It was like, OK, well, now I'm kind of locked into this because now I know you don't want any part of this. And that's kind of when the decision was made. It wasn't even really parenting was never something I was actually given the opportunity to think about because it was like, OK, well, you don't want to be a parent.

12:25And society and my religion and all these things tell me that I can't do this by myself. I'm not supposed to do this by myself. And I'm not enough to do this by myself. And so in that moment, it was like, all right, well, I guess I've got to start figuring out this adoption thing. And so I moved home to Georgia and moved back in with my parents and I met with an agency.

12:55And at the time, I was really. I felt comforted because the agency that we met with, the director was actually a friend of my family. And I now know that that is a huge conflict of interest and that really probably shouldn't have been the way that we went. But at the time, it felt like, oh, OK, these people are going to take care of me. They're going to do the right thing. They're going to make sure that I know what to do and what to look forward to or not look

13:27forward to, but what is coming ahead. And I don't think I was really fully prepared for what this decision entailed. I just thought in my mind, well, I'm answering someone's prayer. This is, you know, someone wants a baby. This is the answer to their prayer. That's the gift, quote unquote, that I need to give in order for this to all be right. And I picked out a family.

13:58And the weird thing is, is that, you know, she had said to me, well, this guy really reminds me of your dad and automatically I was biased to that family because I was like, oh, well, I want someone that's going to be like my dad. And it turns out he is nothing like my dad. So that was a little misgiving. But that section of time, I felt so secure in what I was choosing.

14:29And I felt I felt like I was empowered, even though I look back now 20 years later and go, was I empowered to do this? So that's been a little bit hard to wrestle with. But we started forming this beautiful relationship. And I really got to know them in the four months that I had left. I met them when I was five months pregnant and they became like an older brother and sister to me. And in a lot of ways, I think that that is what enabled me to go through with it, because

15:05I didn't want to disappoint them. I knew how long they had waited. I knew how much they wanted this. I knew how much they had prayed for a baby, what they had gone through to get one. And I didn't want to be the person that shattered that dream for them. And so I placed my daughter in September of 2001. She was actually born two days after September 11th happened. So talk about trauma on trauma on trauma. It was a lot.

15:35I have a video that that we filmed during the time that I was in the hospital. And all of it is us having these conversations about life and about things that are happening in the world. And I remember sitting on the couch when September 11th happened and just bawling my eyes out and rubbing my stomach and being like, what am I doing? Like how am I bringing a child into a world like this? What is happening right now?

16:06And I think in a lot of ways, it also made me feel even more inadequate. Like, OK, no, she really does need these two people to make her life better, quote unquote. I need I need them to make her life better. And so I placed her. And what I had decided when I was pregnant was a psychology major. And I had taken child psychology classes. And really in the back of my head, I kept thinking about how kids start to remember

16:36things when they were around two. And I was like, well, maybe I should step back physically when she turns two, because I don't want to be waving my arms in the background. Like, please pay attention to me. I need more from you than you're able to give me. It would have been for me in my brain at 19 years old, an unhealthy, confusing situation for her. I now know that that's not true, that that wouldn't have been confusing for her to have

17:08me around longer. But that's the decision that I made. And I decided to step back, but they ended up taking my parents out to dinner and asking them if they wanted to be a part of her life longer than the two years. And they said yes. And so that was exciting for me because it was like, OK, well, then I'll get double updates. I'll be able to see them with her and be able to watch her grow up through them also.

17:40And my brothers were eight and ten at the time. And so talk about, you know, super confusing for them. Like my sister's having a baby and I don't know what that means anyway, because I'm eight and ten and then now the baby's not going to be with her. And what does that look like? So that was a really interesting journey. But then after I placed, I didn't get any counseling. I didn't get any help. I didn't, but I also didn't seek it because I didn't think I needed it.

18:14I thought, you know, I made this beautiful choice. This is what was meant to happen, quote unquote. And that's where I ran with it. Ten months after I had my daughter, I found myself pregnant again by a different guy. And my whole world just imploded. It was like, I cannot believe that I'm about to put my family through this a second time. There's no way that. How might how? How did this happen?

18:44And I know a lot of it stems from traumas I had even before placement that I never resolved. I was acquaintance raped when I was 17 years old by what I considered very close friend of mine. And I never dealt with that trauma and I never told anybody about it. And in the three years that I got pregnant twice, I hadn't talked to anybody about that,

19:14really. And so when my mom found out I was pregnant with my second and it was like a light bulb went off. It was like, oh, OK, we thought that you had just gone off the deep end for no reason. And here you are telling us that that's not what it was, that you already had this trauma and then it got impacted and compacted by you getting pregnant and then placing. So when I was pregnant with my second, I really, really felt strongly about I didn't want my

19:54daughter to grow up wondering what difference 19 months made that I could parent him. That I couldn't parent her. And so I immediately called her parents. They were the first people that I told that I was pregnant. And they were like, we can't afford to have another baby this quickly. We just can't afford it. There's no way that we can do that. And so I started preparing to parent because I was like, I don't want to go through this again with another family.

20:24I don't want to have to to build that relationship again with somebody else. And I don't want to run the risk of them not allowing my son to see my daughter. So if he stays with me, at least I know they can have a relationship. And a couple of months after we had that conversation, they called me and he was like, I got a raise at my job and we can afford to take him if you want us to.

20:56And it was up until me being in the hospital that I was still wrestling with whether or not I was going to take him home. And I remember I don't remember a lot about the second time. But one thing I do remember is the day we were going to leave the hospital, her mom came in and just started crying. And she was like, it doesn't matter what you choose, because you've already given me the greatest gift that you could have ever given me. And I don't want you to feel obligated to do this a second time.

21:31And in that moment, it was like. You're better for him than I am. And then he can be with her and she doesn't have to wonder what happened. And so he went home with them. And I decided the same thing with him, that I was going to step back after he turned two. And so I stopped seeing her the year that he was born. And then I stopped seeing him in 2005, two years after he was born.

22:05And I think in so many ways, I thought that was the best option for them, because I wanted them to be able to be a family and I didn't think that that needed to include me. I know now that I was wrong and that that wasn't necessarily the route that we should have gone. But I also know from having conversations with them, that that's what they needed. And so that almost made me feel worse that they actually were OK with me not being around.

22:43But I do know I did know that we would eventually come back together. It ended up taking a lot longer. We had anticipated for us to reconnect physically in person. We still did phone calls and emails. And once social media came around, we added each other on social media and those kind of things. They always knew who I was. They spent a lot of time with my parents, with my brothers.

23:16They all grew up together. And so that for me was at least a happy part of it because they still had connection to their biology and they still had connection to where they came from. And just as a sidebar, neither one of their birth fathers have ever wanted to be involved. And so they both have completely been out of the picture the entire time. And that's been really hard.

23:46But it's also in some ways, I feel like it's been a blessing. Both of them were not the greatest humans. And so that would have been a little bit difficult, I think, for me to have to wrestle with all of that. But I was super grateful that my parents and my brothers were involved as long as they were, moving into them becoming a little bit older. I was kind of all over the place between when they each turned two and when we were able

24:20to reunite. I moved around a lot. I went to a bunch of different colleges. I dated a lot. I was trying to figure out who I was and I didn't know how to do that, really. It was almost like I had to relive a lot of things because having two kids at 19 and 21, I feel like I lost a part of my innocence. And then I started acting out because it was like, well, this is my life now.

24:51And so I would start throwing my story in people's faces when they would ask me about me and, oh, I'm a birth mom, so you probably don't really want to date me or you don't really want to get involved with me because there's two kids on the other side of it. Eventually, they're going to be the back of my life. So I always kind of used it as a weapon against people getting close to me. And then around the time that I turned 30, which was in, oh gosh, 2011 around there?

25:30Yeah, 2011 because 2021 is this year and I turned 40. So, yeah, that works. Maths, not very good at that. So around 2011, I started getting in. OK, so in 2011, I went to Honduras with my dad and we went on a trip to work at an orphanage and see all the babies and love on them and do all the things, which again, I feel icky

26:04saying again, because I've learned so much about how much harm that does and the damage and all the things once the kids are left without anything again. But we made this trip to Honduras. And while we were there, we went to a women's detention center and I did not really share my story publicly, especially on social media, people that I was friends with knew that I had placed two kids, but I wasn't really vocal or open about my story.

26:35And I walked into that detention center and it was me and I think three other girls and our dad. So it was like a dad daughter trip that we were all on. And they asked if any of us wanted to share anything with these women in this detention center. And I did not wake up that morning expecting to get up in front of those women and bare my soul. But that's what I did. And it was through a translator.

27:05It was very clunky and very me being really emotional. But somehow with language barriers and all the things, some of these women knew exactly what I had been through. And it was the first time that I felt seen by other women, some of which had placed their children for adoption or whose family had taken over because they were in this detention center. And it was the first time that I went, you know what, I need to start talking about this

27:39more. And so I went home back to California where I was living at the time and I kind of just Google things. I was like, OK, I need to find someone that I can talk to or something. And I ended up finding this woman who was doing a radio show at the time called Just Birth Parents. And she had asked me to write some things for her. And once she heard my story, we started talking about things more.

28:12And towards the end of 2012, I got an email from this woman. Her name is Ashley Mitchell. And she was basically like, I don't want to like you because you seem like the most perfect person in the world, but I really want to know more about you. And I was one of those girls that grew up and I was like, oh, I have guy friends because girls don't like me and they whatever. There's always competition and I was always the guy's girl and whatever.

28:44And Ashley was the same way. And so when we connected, it was like if we would have met at any other time in our lives, we would have hated each other. And this would have not been a good thing. But we were both at the beginning stages of wanting to share what had happened. And obviously, my views of adoption have shifted a lot in the last 10 years. But that was really 2012 was really like a turning point for me in finding birth mother

29:15community online. And so the first time that I met another birth mother, besides my aunt, that's a whole other story. My aunt became a birth mom actually when I was 17, two years before I did. But she and I never talked about the shared grace that we had until literally a couple of years ago. So I didn't really talk to any other birth moms until I found that community. And in 2013, I went to my first birth mom meet up in Utah.

29:48I flew from California to Utah and met all of these amazing women who had been through what I had been through. Some of them even having placed twice and some of them even having left abusive relationships and trying to protect their kids from their birth fathers. And it was it was so powerful because I finally felt like I wasn't alone anymore, that I didn't have to do this journey by myself and that I can actually be around people who understood

30:21where I was coming from. So that was 2012. In 2014, my middle brother was getting married. And because my kids have been in his life since he was 10, he called me and said, you know, I want to ask the kids if they'll be in our wedding. Is that OK with you? And I was like, well, then that means that I'm going to have to see them at your wedding. So yes, please, please do that.

30:51I will please, please, please do that. And at this point, we still had open communication. I think in some ways, their dad thought I wasn't. A good person to be in their life for that amount of time. And so from 2000, what was it, five until 2014, so nine years, I wanted more contact

31:22than we had, but I never felt the liberty to say, hey, can we like open this up more? Can I see them now? Because I felt like I needed to get my wife together first, like I wasn't going to be good for them if I didn't have everything perfect. And so in 2014, I had pretty much gotten my life together. I was, you know, working in California. I had a great job. I was living with a roommate and doing well by societal standards.

31:54And so they were like, OK, you know, let's do this. And so the weekend that we reunited was the weekend of my brother's wedding in 2014. And that kind of opened up opened up a whole new world for us. My kids were 12. No, 11 and nine. That right math again, see, this is not a good thing for me. But they were around the around that age and it would.

32:27Oh, no, they were 11 and 12 because my daughter was about to turn 13 2001, 2014. Got it. She was about to turn 13 and my son had just turned 11. So we reunited at my brother's wedding and it was. Everything like it was exactly what I needed. It was what I'd always wanted to be a part of their lives and to be able to take pictures with them and to be able to talk to them in person and get to know them.

33:01My daughter and I got to dance together on the dance floor. And like it was it was like no time had passed, you know. And after that, it was like, OK, well, now they're going to come for Christmas and then I'm going to go for it. You know, so they we started like spending holidays together and we would see each other a couple of times a year. And so that was 2014. I met my future husband in 2015 and then they were in our wedding.

33:33Technically they were in our reception because we eloped in February of 2016. But we had a beach reception in July 2016 and they came out to California, their whole family, and they were in our wedding and did all the fun things. My daughter sang me down the aisle while my husband played the guitar. And it was it was a dream. It was everything that I had always wanted for our relationship to be. And then as they've gotten older, you know, it's been really interesting because now they

34:08have full autonomy over our relationship and what that looks like. And as they were still teenagers and, you know, not completely adults yet, it was, you know, oh, now they can text message me from their own phone. And there's not a middle man that's saying, oh, well, I'll tell them that. But, you know, are you really telling them that? Or so it was kind of a new chapter in a lot of ways. And they were the first people that we told that we were pregnant.

34:39And so that was really awesome. I was terrified to tell them because, I mean, even after that long had time had passed in the back of my mind, I'm going, are they going to think that I'm OK to be a parent? Are they going to feel bad that I'm parenting this child now? And I wasn't able to. And so I had all of these things going on in my head and they were so excited. And it was a wallet took you long enough kind of thing instead of, you know, the negative

35:14alternative that I was building up in my mind with all of my weird intrusive thoughts. So I was super stoked that they wanted to be a part of his life and a part of our lives. And so that was in 2016. And then in 2018, I went to visit them in North Carolina. My mom and I and my son, we drove up to North Carolina from Georgia to see them.

35:44And it was their adoptive dad's birthday. And we went out to lunch and things just felt different with the two of them as parents. It felt like there was some sort of shift happening. And a couple of months after that, they ended up separating. And that was literally my worst nightmare. In their profile that they had written for whatever expected mom was going to choose

36:19them, they had literally written the words divorce is not an option for us. And in my mind, it was, oh, my God, this couple is perfect. Like they that's exactly what I want. I want two people that are committed to staying together, that are always going to have this perfect family and, you know, the forever all of the things. And it was literally my worst nightmare to find out that they were separating. And in the back of my head, I kind of was like, OK, well, there's a possibility still

36:49that they could get back together. And that's not realistic, you know, once that separation has happened. And I think one of the things that we're not reminded of when we make these decisions is that they're just as human as we are and that they're not immune to things like death and divorce and really bad things happening into their family.

37:20That's not something that's truthful. And I think that a lot of times we put them up on this pedestal like, oh, well, no, they're going to do everything right. They're going to make sure it works out like everything is going to be great, great and groovy. And so that was a really hard time for me. 2018 was pretty difficult. It was kind of made a little bit more difficult by the fact that, you know, I had had such

37:50a strong relationship with both of them and their mom. I was kind of her person during the separation. And I think sometimes she may have forgotten what my role actually was in her life and what I was to her and to her kids. And she saw me more like a sister or like a friend. And so she told me things that as a birth mom, I probably shouldn't have heard whether

38:22it was about his parenting or about like their relationship or. And it made it a little bit difficult for me to not be really angry at him. And turns out I was right to be angry at him. It turns out that he didn't necessarily keep all the promises that I had asked him to. And what being a father looked like for them and making his love conditional and being

38:54in some ways financially abusive and emotionally not there. And and they're both very different people from who I am. And so, you know, in my naive mind, I'm going, oh, well, they're going to raise them exactly like I would. And it's going to be awesome. And that's not the way that it worked out because we're very different humans. And as they've gotten to be older and my kids have become adults, they have shared some

39:26things with me that makes me. Not like him very much. And they ended up divorcing at the beginning of twenty twenty. And it was like. January, they divorced. January, my support animal of 15 years, my cat died. And then my son's third birthday is when Covid shut everything down. And so it was like the beginning of twenty twenty was like a crazy.

39:58Horrible show that should never played out the way that it was. Right. And it was like, how much more do we have to go through in order for this to be a thing? And so when their divorce was finalized, it was like. It was like a switch shut off for him. And he and I used to be closer than she and I were. And he hasn't spoken to me since February of this year.

40:33And I don't know why. I don't know if it's just because I bring up triggers for him or if he yet he it seems like he's picked and chosen when he wants to be a father now, now that they're adults and they're supposed to be able to handle things on their own and all the things. And so I think in a lot of ways. Things altered and shifted how I view this beautiful thing that I chose for them and.

41:05Really ultimately, it's what. Encouraged me to start my education page in 2018 when they separated, I started a page called Adoption Education Keys, and it was really my way of out letting the things that I was learning that I never knew about adoption. And here I was, you know, 17 years into my birth motherhood, learning things that I should

41:35have been told back when I was making these decisions. And it was so eye opening. And I was like, I have to talk about these things. And so I started my page and it kind of became an outlet for me to. Really figure out where my place was now. And what that looked like in the scheme of educating other people so that they know going into this, what it actually is or could be or what the possible outcomes might be.

42:11And then I started working further with Ashley and in 2000, I think it was 17 is when we really started talking about wanting to do programs for birth mothers. And actually, it was 2016 because it's coming up on. Now. 2015 math again, I'm so mad. It was probably around 2015 because I think this is this coming year is going to be our

42:44sixth year of writing curriculum. But we started this program called me to me. And it's a curriculum for birth mothers to have support groups across the country. And we do it through the Lifetime Healing Foundation, which Ashley founded. And it's really for women who have been exploited, whether through adoption or through sexual abuse, through incarceration, through trafficking. But we wanted a space for women to come to be able to go, oh, OK, I'm not alone.

43:19And now I have tools for every month of the year to be able to process where I'm at in the season of life that I am. And I can do it with other women who have been through what I have that are also at different seasons of their journey and can teach me things. And I can teach them things that we wouldn't have known before. And so I think like immersing myself in this birth mother community has really given me so much healing because it's enabled me to go, you know what?

43:50Adoption isn't beautiful always. And it's not always this perfect happy story that everyone makes it out to be. And I know mine's definitely not a success story. A lot of people put on me that I was like the perfect birth mother because I had placed these two children with the same family and I had created this beautiful thing. And then I got ripped apart. And it was like, OK, well, where do I sit now that I'm not the perfect birth mother

44:20with this perfect story and this perfect open adoption relationship? And it's been kind of hard to reconcile that from where I thought I was to where I am now. And ultimately, I think that what we go through grows us and when we can learn things and we can share them with others, we can spare them maybe the heartache of going through what we did. And I feel like I can't stay silent anymore.

44:50I was silent for so long. And then when I found my voice, it was like, well, you're not going to shut me up now. So I might as well keep talking about all this stuff. And that's kind of where we find ourselves now. When I went to see them in 2018, right before they separated, that was the last time I got to see my son until this year. And really, the three years of separation is because when their parents separated, my

45:20son went to live with his dad and my daughter went to live with her mom. And my son and his dad's relationship was not healthy for either one of them. And so my son ended up moving to a completely different state with completely different people than I had chosen for him. And they it was a friend of his that he had gone to camp with and his family welcomed my son into their family. And he went and lived with them for a couple of years.

45:52And in a lot of ways, I felt like I had failed. It's like, OK, well, the people that I chose for him didn't work out. And the father that I chose for him failed at what I asked him to do. And so I took that failure on myself. And because he was in a completely different state, I didn't get to see him for three years. And then his mom moved down to where he is in Arkansas, his for his senior year of high school last year.

46:23And I was super, super glad that she did that because he needed somebody. And if it couldn't be me, I would rather be one of the people that I had chosen for him. And so I'm really thankful that she stepped up and did that. And now my daughter is back living with her dad. She's 20 and she's working for his company. And it's just a lot because I I know that he is not the father figure that I always

46:58thought that he was going to be for them. And so that's been really hard to come to terms with. But his mom ended up my son's mom ended up paying for me to come be with him for his 18th birthday in April. And that was the greatest gift that she could have ever given me. My daughter came down from North Carolina and I got to spend a weekend with my son, my daughter and their mom. And it was. Everything. It was like 2014 when we reunited and all the things, except now I could talk to them

47:32about adult stuff and they could actually have conversations with me about where they're at in life and what they want. So I'm very grateful that they have always remained open to me and to who I am and my role in their lives. But at the same time, it's been a really hard journey for us to get here. There's been a lot of up and down and a lot of back and forth and a lot of disappointment. But I'm just so grateful that they are the humans that they are.

48:07And I have to credit their parents for that because. They were there as long as they could be until they couldn't. And that, I guess, is really what matters. And I wanted them to just be able to grow into the humans that they were going to be. And I feel like now they have the capability of doing that. And I also have autonomous relationships with them so they can reach out to me whenever they want. We can meet up whenever we want.

48:37We can do all the things. And now that we live over here, it will hopefully be a lot easier for them to come down and visit. And so, yeah, but my son is like I said, he's four and a half. And he's always known about them. We talk about brother and sister all the time. He is constantly asking about them, constantly wants to see pictures of them. And I want him to grow up knowing them. And I'm just super grateful that they also want to be a part of that.

49:09So that's my really long story. Beautiful. Yeah. I kept thinking like, oh, I got to ask her about this and then you would say everything that I was thinking. And I'm like, OK, I have a question about this. I'm like, oh, there it is. So it was great that everything you shared was really in line with all the things that I would want to know more about your story. So that's sweet. We probably have a couple follow up questions just to kind of process a little bit. But your story was fantastic.

49:40That was great. Thank you for sharing it. I can tell that you're like a writer. It was very well organized. Like storytelling, storytelling is good. You're good at it. Thank you. All right. So thinking about some of your struggles regarding adoption, what do you wish other people knew or understood? I think the main thing I want people to understand about adoption is that it is an ebb and flow.

50:12It's never one linear situation. And every situation is so unique that you can't pinpoint that something is going to go the way that it will because someone else's did. I think I had really unrealistic expectations going into it. And I wasn't educated about what the realities were. And if I could tell anybody anything about adoption, it would be to educate yourself

50:46about it, whether that's the history of adoption in America, which we could have a whole other conversation about, whether it's what it looks like to keep your promises, what it looks like to love a birth mother well. There's just so many more layers, I think, than people actually place on it than just this beautiful success story of a baby finding a family versus a family getting ripped apart

51:17in order to create a new one. I think I was very naive. And so I would encourage people to get rid of their naivete and educate themselves. So considering that we have all members of the adoption tribe listening to this, what are maybe some pieces of advice or counsel you would give for how we can improve adoption culture in society moving forward? What do you think some things we could do as this community?

51:49I think first and foremost, we need to listen to adult adoptees. I think that's really missed in a lot of conversations because they're dismissed as being angry or bitter about what's happened to them versus going, no, these things were chosen for them without their permission. And what does that look like for them as they enter adulthood, as they have kids, as they do all of these things in life that nobody talks about?

52:20Because when you're starting adoption, it's all about the baby. It's all about the kid. It's all about it being a child and it not being an adult that grows up with its own opinions and thoughts and feelings about these things that were chosen for them. And so I think first and foremost, we really need to start listening more to adult adoptees. I think we also need to listen to birth mothers, maybe a little bit biased about that. But I do think that a lot of us are also dismissed as angry and bitter because a lot of times,

52:52more often than not, birth mothers don't step back like I did. And instead, they're closed off or shut off because of things that they do or thing or insecurities or whatever is, you know, hiding behind that relationship. But I think in so many ways that we're missing pieces if we don't listen to all of the voices. I think so much of adoptive parent education comes from other adoptive parents.

53:24And that's great because obviously you need to talk to people that you can understand the process that you're going through. But we need to listen to the people that are affected by it on the other side, because we have a lot of thoughts and opinions, too, about what's happened and the choices that we've made. And I think oftentimes, birth mothers sometimes take a hard have a hard time taking personal responsibility for their role in what they've chosen, especially when their kids become adults and they're like, well, no, I don't really like that you did this for me.

53:58And that's not really how I would have done it. And birth moms can sometimes get defensive and things. But I think listening to the voices that have made it happen is kind of important. And really, lastly, I would say the thing that needs the most is reform. I think there's a lot of reform that needs to happen at adoption. I think that there are a lot of practices still in place that should have been gone a long time ago. And I think that the only way to do that is through people speaking up about their stories

54:31and about what's happened to them and and getting in with lawmakers and all that stuff so that adoption laws can get changed and reform can actually take place. I think my biggest contribution will eventually end up being I want to get my master's in counseling that's adoption and trauma informed so that other birth moms, adoptive parents, adoptees can have a space to come to where I know what they're going through.

55:01But there is a lot that needs to change and a lot that needs to be different. So I appreciate that question because there's definitely a lot of things that need to happen in order for that to take place. Yeah, we definitely see the need for a lot of things to change, improving ethics, making sure that voices are heard. That's one of our, you know, our missions, right, to provide extra voices. And so thank you so much for sharing your your perspective and the things that you experience.

55:31Again, as you told your story and everything unfolded, I'm like, wow, this is answering so many questions that I had for her or in general. And the way that you were able to articulate that was beautiful. So thank you for being willing and open and authentic. I appreciate you giving spaces for voices like mine because oftentimes we don't feel heard. And so it's really nice to feel heard and to feel seen. So I appreciate that, y'all.

56:01Awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Open Adoption Project. And we're just so grateful for Sarah, for her willingness to participate and share her story with us. She's great and we learned so much from her. Make sure that you go ahead and follow her on Instagram. If you have an Instagram, she is at Adoption Education Keys and she tries to have a safe

56:33space to have hard conversations about adoption there. And it's a great place to follow. She has great content and we just love the work that she's doing to help educate the adoption community. Yeah. A couple of things that stood out to me from her story is that while many times the beginning of an adoption story or from one side or the other may look like it's beautiful and perfect, that we are all human. We all make mistakes. We all go through really challenging things and we're not immune to that in the adoption

57:07community, right? And so the decisions that expecting parents make to place may or may not be what they wish they would have done 10 years afterward. Or maybe the family that you placed with didn't quite end up looking like you thought it would. And I think we just need to be sensitive and realize that it's not always a storybook ending. Yeah, just like what she said, it's not always beautiful. And that can be, I think, a hard truth sometimes for us to recognize as adoptive parents, but

57:41it's such an important thing to recognize and to be open to listening to and understanding from all of these different perspectives in adoption. Just knowing that it doesn't always look beautiful. It doesn't always look happy. And sometimes it's just a big mixed bag of so many different feelings and emotions. Another thing that stood out to me was kind of the timing of her openness. She had pretty open relationships until her children turned two and then was kind of out

58:12of the picture. And I think that that for her as she expressed it, just that distance caused even more trauma or even more sadness around the situation that she was in. And so for me, again, it highlighted and we talk about this all the time on the podcast, but for me, it highlighted the importance of having a healthy open adoption relationship. Yeah. And that's really one of our big focuses here is trying to emphasize how as adoptive parents,

58:46we really should be shelving any of our insecurities or our worries and putting our kids first, right? That's always the goal. And for us, that really does look like keeping their birth families in their lives as much as we can. And it really just enriches our kids' lives so much and really ours too. Again, we want to thank Sarah so much for being with us on the podcast and for just being so awesome. She was really fun to talk to and really fun to listen to. Yeah, she was so fun.

59:17Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back next week.

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