Mary | Tragically Beautiful

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lynette. And I'm Sean. In today's episode we have an interview between Mary and Lynette. Mary is an adoptee and shares her story of reunification. And I think that a lot of the times in the adoption world we imagine all of the great, amazing, happy, joyful reunification stories. And Mary's story has a lot of twists and turns that were really unexpected for her.

0:34And I think that as we listen to her share her story we can understand a lot about the importance of relationships, of connecting, and of just fostering the best relationships that we can. So she'll share a lot about her personal story and then answers a lot of questions about being an adoptee and about some of the experiences that she's had mostly in the later part of her or more recent part of her life. Anyway, such a great interview with Mary and Lynette and we hope that you enjoy.

1:18We are here on the podcast with Mary. Mary, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh, so thanks for having me. To start off, can we have you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about you? Sure. I am. My name is Mary Herbert. I am a mom of four. And I am sort of running into you and crossing paths because I'm an adoptee myself. And I went through a kind of wonky last two years or so and so I've decided to sort of have a platform on Instagram to talk to other people about being adopted and adopting kids

1:56and it's just like my favorite thing to do is to talk about adoption and I just think it's really special to, you know, create dialogue that's sometimes an uncomfortable conversation, you know, and, and I think it's really important. I, my kids are at school this year, and all of a sudden I have some time during the day and so this is what I love doing. I love, I love just comparing stories and talking back and forth about what adoption means to different people.

2:26I love that. So important. Where can people follow you on Instagram. Yes, so I'm at because adoption, and that started, goodness, maybe like eight months ago, and I was going through this sort of strange part of my story and all of a sudden light bulbs are sort of going off and I'm like, Oh my gosh, that is because adoption. You know, like that happened to me because of this and that happened because of that and I'm like, Okay, that's it. That's what we're going to call it like all these things sort of are encompassed because adoption so that's where you can find me.

2:56Awesome. Thank you. All right, well to start off, can we have you share your adoption story. Sure, yeah, I'd love to. I was an infant adoptee. And so I came to my adoptive parents around five weeks old. I am not international, I look very much like my parents, and I have one brother who is also adopted from the same agency he's a little bit younger four years younger than me. And life is pretty simple pretty, pretty great as a kid adoption wasn't really

3:31a huge part of my life, which I think is a blessing and a curse you know kind of it goes both ways hand in hand. I was a closed adoption so we had no information about my family, my biological family and as I grew that became more and more of a curiosity of mine so when I turned 18, I really started thinking about where I came from and roots and it's just such. It's almost like a primal instinct I like to tell people, just to know where you come from it's not any sort of negativity to my adopted parents it's just very much you need to know, and as I talked to more and more adoptees, not everybody has that.

4:14But I really did. And so that sort of started my drive and my wheels were spinning in my brain and I just had to know so I started looking. And again closed adoptions are really tricky, and I love that there's more and more open adoptions nowadays because I think it's just so much healthier. Just personal, you know standpoint that doesn't mean it's right versus wrong but. And I got married fairly young and my husband knew I was adopted this was just kind of a big part of my life I always wanted to find and so I kind of went on a search.

4:51And I did it myself the agency is closed they are sworn by documents and court orders and all kinds of things and I was still fairly young so it wasn't like it had been 50 years some states you know open them after a certain amount of time but mine were closed, mine were closed closed closed. And so I kind of started searching on my own, and it took a long time, I mean years, and I'm not super patient so I kind of came to the table and and worked through it a little bit and then I had to walk away.

5:21And I did finally connect to my mom, my biological mom, right before we were, we were getting ready to start having kids so we were talking about being pregnant and I'm like, Gosh, I don't know I could die from pregnancy like I don't know anything like maybe, maybe it could go horrifically wrong and I have wanted to be a mom. Since I was about seven, you know when they ask you like what do you want to be when you grow up and everyone wants to be a vet or a fireman or, and I wanted to be a mom that was so cute. I just did you know a big family.

5:55And I think now as I like sort of unpack my life that probably has to do with adoption to, you know, I just, I envision like being a grandparent and having four kids and them having kids and we just have this big family and that has been my image that I think I'm going to get to that I've always wanted to get to since I was very very little so I let my husband know that that's what we're doing that's our plan. And he's like okay I'm you know I'm on board. But the adoption was always there you know I connected with her right before the same year I got pregnant with my first.

6:31And that was, she's 11 now so my kids are five seven nine and 11. And so this was right before kind of motherhood started, and I did get to have this wonderful conversation with her. And it was about an hour. I took notes vigorously as if I was in college and I just wrote wrote wrote wrote wrote because my memory is not great. I don't know if you find that with adoptees the more you talk to them you sort of find similarities.

7:01And I hear that a lot you know we have the ability to sort of shut certain memories out and not you know remember others and so my memory is not great so I knew I had to write everything down, and I still have that notebook, you know I look at it sometimes. And, you know, remember that conversation with her, and it was lovely. I learned a lot. And we got off the phone and she said, This is so wonderful like I can't wait to have a relationship with you it's just so great and so I hung up the phone thinking

7:34that's what we were going to do. And I picked up the phone the next day or later that evening just to call back and we were supposed to talk again and she did not pick up her phone. And, you know, I thought oh it's a mistake I must you know have the wrong number and I left a message and you know two three days went by, and this was very clear, you know a brush off. And man that was the beginning of this, you know secondary rejection where you just feel, man, did you trick me, you know I really thought here we were and.

8:11And so for the next six years I had four kids in the next six years and I would say twice a year and pick up the phone and call or send a text message and just say Merry Christmas, or I hope you're doing okay I'm here if you're ready or anything like that you know I just wanted to be there for her, I knew this was probably something really hard for her and I just wanted to be friends you know I just wanted to, you know, how can I help you how can I make you feel better about this and. And she never answered ever, and it took another almost eight years seven years until we reconnected again.

8:48And I called one day and she picked up on accident, it was very clear, you know she didn't realize who it was, and she was charming very cordial, you know, surprised but very, you know, stayed relaxed it wasn't a hang up or anything panicked. And I let her know I was going to be up where she lived in a couple of weeks and she said, Oh, this is so great and we'll get together. And so I went thinking we would and, you know, you know the you know the story you know she didn't come.

9:18And that's heartbreaking, you know, again with the man I really thought we were going somewhere here, and she just wasn't ready and I really wish she had just told me I wasn't ready that would have been something really hard but it wouldn't have been the pull around, you know that that maybe it's going to work. So for the first time, after she didn't show up we were supposed to meet at a hotel, and you know a lobby somewhere safe I mean this could be anyone right and you know I was angry, I left feeling upset like this is it, I remember pulling away from the train station

9:55after she hadn't shown up and I just said this is the end, this is the end of the story. I can't do this, you know I have this beautiful family and I really need to concentrate on them and it'll happen when it happens. And almost two years later to the day I got a text message from her phone. And it was from her significant other, and he was letting me know that she was ill. And, you know, what do what do we do as women what do we do as moms we kind of revert back to that motherly, what can I do. Do you need a liver Do you need a kidney, do you need blood, like, how sick is she what what do we need to do how can I help like, does she

10:35have anyone does she have support, where do you need me to be. And my husband kind of looked at me cuckoo for a minute you know like, wait a minute, like, we don't even know her and it doesn't matter, it didn't matter to me it was that this is my chance, I can get to her now, you know like we're close again here we go and you know I start revving up the engine again of we're going to build this relationship this is going to be. And I hope sometimes when people listen to my story they don't think God what a looney tune are you like the woman didn't want to be around you.

11:09But there was something I just couldn't let go, I could not let it go. And so I felt like she was being dropped in my lap again like here we go. Let's, you know, let's try again, and it had been you know a few years. And I was speaking with her significant other and understanding what was going on with her and the diagnosis and her progress and, you know, down to her medicines and I spoke to her nurses and I kind of got to know her through him for a few weeks,

11:50and one day she woke up. And he said you know she'd like to talk to you she knows that you've been praying for her and talking to me and she'd like to talk to you. I'm like great. When let's do it, let's do it and so she was transferred back from the ICU she had been moved to a hospital wing because she was in real severe condition and she was now back into just sort of the general hospital floor and so she could speak on the phone and I felt like here we go. You know this is going to be great you're going to get better. And this is our chance like God dropped you in my lap right now this is going to work.

12:32And so we chatted we chatted every day. Twice a day. I remember walking outside I'm like looking outside remembering like I would walk up and down my sidewalk and hospital phones would close at eight, and I would call you know at 750. Just make sure I got those last couple minutes with her. And she was progressively getting better. And she, you know, you may think this is like a little cuckoo but I sort of like fell in love with her over those two weeks.

13:07Like now I really need her to get better you know now we have a relationship and as small as it may be or as big as it may be like now. Now I care for this woman not just because of who she was but because I know her now, you know I want to make sure she's okay and I want to make sure she's okay. So she came home one day. And I got a call she was home. And I called her the next day and she didn't pick up. And I just said, Oh, come on. Come on.

13:38And by this point. I talked to her son on the phone so I have this wonderful half brother, and he was 18. And I just adore him we have a great relationship now just to skip to the end he's just a part of our family and I love him. But he didn't know that I existed. And now he did. And so I called him and I said what's going on like, I thought we were kind of doing good with your mom and he said oh she's back in the hospital.

14:08And I have to tell you, there was a piece of me that's that was relieved that she wasn't blowing me off. That sounds awful. But to have gone through it a few times already. You know, I just said okay, it's a hiccup, but at least we're still in the clear you know her her son's picking up like, we're still good. And unfortunately, I spoke to her three or four more times and she was going downhill pretty quickly.

14:40And, you know, I remember our last phone conversation and like I felt like she knew it was the last you know it was very emotional and very quick and and sad and just. She went to sleep. And I got a call a day or two later saying we were they were moving her to hospice. And I said oh my god like wait, I haven't gotten up there. I haven't seen her and this is the way did she live from you. She's about two hours. Okay. Yeah, but this was the time that coven started shutting everything down so you weren't allowed in hospitals, people were having babies without their spouses.

15:18There weren't enough masks for nurses. I mean it was that weird time where people were opening doors with like their shirts, you know, like, nobody knew what was going on. And so there was one point before she went home where I thought I need to go up there because they didn't. We didn't think she was going to make it before she woke up there was a real unknown time for two about 48 hours. And, you know, my husband and I kind of talked it over and we said got the risk of going up there is high. You know she's already intubated and she's probably not going to make it and then she did make it.

15:57And, and came home and then was back and I felt like these were chances that were being given to me. And this was the last one and I needed to get up there. And I needed to see her face and. So day two in hospice, I got in the car and I went up and you know looked my best because I had always envisioned we'd be in a coffee shop or. I mean shoot the visions were anything but a hospital bed, you know, I had played it out so many times in my mind, and

16:33so I got there and she was asleep, and I stayed. I don't think I went to the bathroom once I didn't want to, I didn't want to miss if she woke up, and she stayed asleep. And that was a hard, that was a hard thing. In the moment it felt like I know this wasn't it but in the moment it felt like another rejection, like for goodness sakes, can you just open your eyes and see me. Like, I'm finally here we're breathing the same air. Can you please, you know, and I remember before leaving I begged her, you know she's asleep and I just like, knelt next to her and I just said like can you just throw me a bone.

17:15I've waited my whole life can you just wake up and like, know that I'm here. And she didn't, which is heartbreaking. And I came home, and then the hard part is, you know you leave knowing that's the only time. And then we waited 10 more days, and she was asleep for 10 days there was no, there was no intervention you know hospice is very peaceful, they come in and brush your hair and talk to you and but there's no tubes or intubation there's no feeding there's nothing you just kind

17:52of wait. And I got, I got really comfortable with some of the nurses that were there that I had met. And so I called and checked on her each day a few times is how she doing, you know, because the nurses they know they know when you know. And they said she's just waiting. We don't know why she's just waiting we thought it was waiting for you but you've been here, you know we don't know. So, I think it was day seven.

18:24I grabbed it I sat down with my computer and just took a deep breath and opened up my email, and there was my 23 and me results. And I had done ancestry and they had kind of just been sitting on the computer for a couple years I hadn't dug into them and I had been talking to a woman who helped me kind of pull apart my results and I had been waiting for those results to come back. I had also taken a 23 and me so now I had two sets of DNA, so to speak, I mean it's the same but comparisons and, you know, there was a match to a sister that I had.

19:04And, you know, I said there's a mistake. There's no sister. And those sweet woman who was helping me was like, there's no mistakes. Like, no mistakes he dumb dumb. So I reached out and sure enough it was a second child that she had given up for adoption, and nobody knew, except her mom, and her son didn't know I mean her son didn't know about me either. So there's a second one, and she emailed me back just confirming that.

19:36And then I called my brother who sat with her every night, and I just said guess what, there's another one, you know, there's three of us this is amazing. And he couldn't believe it. And then the next day I opened the email, and it was my sister and she was writing me back just saying like oh my gosh this is crazy. I just want to introduce you to your brother also. And I said that's got to be a joke, like what do you mean and so this was the third child she had given up for adoption.

20:10And so I called my brother again, sitting next to our mom, you know at her bedside just waiting. And I just said you're not gonna believe it. There's another one, you know and he's like this is you know, the poor kid he's 18 years old like, you know, but as these like new people came to surface I mean this is the big picture here is this legacy that she left. And I just said, you know, I'm going to be here for him if he ever needed us, you know, here we are for him and.

20:44So the last day before she passed. I got there, there's actually four of us that she gave up for adoption and they came day after day after day I kind of learned about each of them. And I just called my brother and let him know each day that we found a new one and they were right in a row I mean it was a crazy 72 hours. And we let my mom know on that last day that we had all connected and you know found each other. And that it would be okay. And we all knew that, you know, our brother, who's the only one she raised would be okay you know he's got three, four of us.

21:22And then she passed a couple hours later, you know she passed early the next morning, and so I believe, you know she waited and waited and waited for us to kind of find each other. And I think it would have been really difficult if that had happened had she been awake and had to answer all those questions of why and how. You know, I don't hear a lot of stories that maybe two, but I don't hear a lot of stories of five kids you know in different places and so anyway I have.

21:57That's, that's sort of the last two years, plus all the years of searching sort of it all kind of came to a head and and had surprise after surprise. But it's, you know it's tragically beautiful is kind of how I describe the story, because we found her I found her. We all found each other and then she left us, you know, which is tough. That's hard. Yeah. So, you found three other siblings two of them were raised together.

22:29Yeah, so your half brother. Yeah. So I'm number one. 18 months later is my sister, and then 22 months later is my brother, and they were raised together. And then 20 months later is my sister. And then 12 years later is my half brother and he, he grew up with our mom. All right, wow. Incredible story. And now I tell it and I have to remember, it's not the norm, you know, like it's, it is for me, but it's bananas you know.

23:08Have you found biological family like extended family. Any of your mom's family. Well my mom is adopted also, and it's a pretty hard dead end. You know we don't have her DNA but we have all of ours. And I, you know, I've gone exploring, I think I know where it leads but it's just, it's been two years of me knocking down people's doors that may or may not have wanted to know who I was, and my husband and I sort of joke you know like,

23:44you know, take a break, take a break, like these are people's lives, you know, and she's gone too so that's that's a hard thing to to reach out to someone and say, you know, you're my grandma, and, and not have them, the mom you know not have the middle. And so, my mom always wanted to know it was a conversation we had and so I would love to, you know, understand that at 100% but we may not know, and that's okay.

24:16That's okay with me. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, going back to your childhood. What was the conversation around adoption like in your home as a child. So I grew up, we had books laying around. I have some of those books still, and they're so cute and dated and just, I know there's so many out there now but I think, you know, in the 80s there was probably like five books. There weren't, there wasn't a lot of resources.

24:47But I remember sitting on my mom's lap and they read the book, you know, however many times. So it was open, there was no secret there was no your seven I'm going to tell you now it was just who we were we came from someone else's belly and we came from my adopted mom's heart. And she was always our real mom. There was nothing blurry about the lines, which I appreciated. But again as I got older. It didn't really matter. It could have been this huge secret. I don't think it mattered how it was dealt with I think it was dealt with appropriately for what everybody had their hands as far as like resources I think, you know, they

25:27explain it to us as best as they were instructed to. Yeah. Okay. So what do you feel like your adoptive parents did well. Probably that, you know, it wasn't like taboo, it wasn't. And I think I probably have it a little bit easier than say, an international adoptee or trans racial adoptee, you know, people wouldn't look at me and be like you don't look anything like your parents and that's so hard for children to hear.

25:57I mean I've talked to children that that just say like, it's so unfair, like I don't even like my family because I don't look like them you know it's really hard. And we didn't go through that, and I feel really lucky but that's, that's a hardship right there. And it was, you know, it was talked about we celebrated it once a year I think until we were, I don't know, eight, you know, like it was a little kid holiday that we kind of talked about and, and then it kind of wasn't an issue I don't remember it early

26:28adolescence teens, I don't remember it until I brought it back up at 18. Okay. Yeah. Did you have any negative experiences in your childhood as an adoptee. Um, I, again, my memory is like not great. I don't remember. I don't remember something negative, you know, like off the top of my head, I have to tell you though as I'm currently writing a memoir, and kind of writing this story down memories unlock that I've never seen before.

27:02And that's a strange phenomena that happens I'm writing and all of a sudden I'm like oh my god I don't I didn't remember that experience, and some of them have to do with adoption you know I remember a really strong one that has come up as I'm writing is. I remember holding my mom's hand as a little kid in a store, and I remember appearing around a corner, thinking my, my real mom might be standing there. And that was something that's really stuck with me because the curiosity and the wonder must have been there

27:36as a kid, even though it wasn't talked about openly, I don't remember having the conversations with my parents about it. But to have that memory surface, where I was like stretching around the corner like wondering, she might just be there maybe she's looking for me. So I wouldn't say negative I would say probably suffice, you know, things I wanted to say. But it wasn't talked about. Often, you know, more than just what I've mentioned.

28:08It's interesting that as you're writing your memories down more memories are being unlocked. That's fascinating. Yeah, it's bizarre. It really is it's. I've seen a couple different ones and I have to kind of catch myself wait was that real. You know like you wonder if you're kind of imagining but as I as I write I sort of see things unlock and it's, it's really cool writing has become very therapeutic it's, it's really neat. That is neat. So you grew up with a closed adoption. How do you think this affected your experiences.

28:46In regards to what like, in regards to how you felt about adoption. I didn't really know that there was an open adoption. I didn't understand. I had one friend who was also adopted. Same situation. She lived in my neighborhood she looked like her parents you know it wasn't. We didn't talk about it I just knew there was someone else like that to actually I had two friends.

29:16And, you know, white family white child, there, it wasn't, it wasn't talked about because it wasn't weird, it was just who we were. One of them is very close friend of mine now and we talk about it often now about how it would have been really helpful to talk about it. And to openly discuss that. I mean even even in a joking manner like, you know, bring some humor to the situation, like I'm not like my parents or I am but just to like openly talk about that we came from somewhere else is so healthy.

29:50And I know not a lot of people would agree with me but to not speak about it is. I mean I think it would have been really helpful and, and probably I know this doesn't answer your question but big milestones just like I always kind of want to want to mention this but big milestones like my wedding and graduation and even like winning a soccer tournament, you know, big things when you're a kid. You always wonder. So, those of you all that have adopted children you, the child always wonders if that other mom, you know would be proud or if that other mom knew, or maybe she's around the corner and like watch that soccer goal, you know,

30:32there's always that, because it's unknown. And if it's closed. I mean you don't even have a name or a body. A phone like you have nothing. It's just an imaginary person. You know there were some big steps and when I was finding her when I like first saw her name and all of a sudden she was real. And then when you first hear the voice you're like oh my god it's a real person you know I mean, it's very strange when there's no information at all. So I know that didn't answer your question but that's, that's something like as a child I almost wish that I had had anything from her that just said, like, she was proud or she knew what was going on.

31:16Yeah. So it was a close adoption but also it was pretty close conversation growing up. I mean, yeah, feelings about yeah. Every time I would bring it up. It was addressed and then that was it, the end, you know it was never like touched on it wasn't, you know, and I had like significant learning disabilities and sort of like we jumped around schools and I had some things going on in my life that were tricky it wasn't all smooth sailing.

31:47And so it just it wasn't brought up in a, in a way that related to what was going on in my life was only brought up if I was like hey did my mom had blonde hair, you know, just like that, you know, wasn't. It wasn't unpacked the layers weren't unfolded the way they probably should have been. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Hopefully that's something that's changing I feel like so much community has changed a lot since then and that's great. Yeah, generally. Yeah, I mean I feel like there's so many people in their 30s 40s 50s that are sort of in the middle of chaos right now, because, you know, DNA is out and these secrets are unfolding and you know some you know Aunt Susie slipped up about your, you know, I mean, there's this like wave of chaos I think going on between

32:33with my age adoptees right now, trying to kind of understand themselves, and, you know, it causes a lot of second guessing and self worth, you know, questions and it's hard, it's really hard so this open adoption movement so to speak it's almost like a correction of closed adoption is is wonderful. But you know ups and downs to that too I think I think that can be very invasive to the adoptive parents also and, you know, there's no book, there's no book that says how you do it and each one is so different so that's hard I've heard, you know, I've heard awful

33:11stories either way, you know, it's just, there's no safe space it's just, I think the more you're educated and the more you know the better equipped you'll be, you know, for the bumps that will always be bumps, no matter what you know bumps in the road it's never just a perfect. So, that's true. Yeah. All right, so what advice would you give to other adoptees who are searching for their birth family.

33:41Probably the most important one is patience. This is not I mean it took me 14 years to connect with mine. This is not something that just happens. Sometimes it does, you know, sometimes you get lucky and you take a 23 and there she is. But also, even if you find someone I was just writing a post about this the other day even if you find someone. Take your time with before you act. I think I probably made some mistakes and jumping into, you know, new siblings or new answer uncles and wanting to know everything.

34:21But with my mom like time was really of the essence like had I not plowed through all the obstacles like I could have Mr. Yeah, you know she asked and I would have never gotten to her so time like life is short, I really take that to heart. But think, think before you jump, because, you know, that's. These are other people's lives you're talking about. So it does take time though, it doesn't all have to happen at once and just because it didn't happen this year doesn't mean it's never going to happen. I mean, like I said when I pulled away on that train I remember thinking like this was it, this was the end and, you know, it took two more years and then, you know, everything sort of happened so patience

35:05is it's very hard, but it, you know, I think, keep it in mind. That's good advice. Looking. So building relationships with your siblings as you guys have been reunified. What has that been like do you have any advice for other adoptees who are building these relationships with brothers and sisters that they have found. Yeah, that's, that's tricky too. I mean kind of for the same reason is, you don't know where they're at in their relationship where they are.

35:38And I'm the only mom of the group. And I think that probably has a lot to do with it, I just think a little bit differently. Once you have your own kids I think priority shift and again the life is short sort of comes up and you have these people that are yours and I just, I think your mind is just so different as a mom, and I was just talking to one of my dear friends the one I told you I grew up with that was also adopted and she's recently really reunified with some of her siblings and again I think, I think if you jump in too fast, you know, you just don't know who

36:16they are. And it is instinct for us as humans especially I think as females I don't know if that's fair but to jump in with open arms, and this is this is amazing this is great I mean who wouldn't want someone extra in their life it's not replacing anyone it's a bonus. I mean, I feel so lucky to have extras in my life. And their relationships are, you know, each different. And again, there's no rule book or instruction manual to this, you know everybody kind of does things at their own pace I mean I would love to have them all over for Thanksgiving, and just enjoy each other and compare notes and understand each other's quirks

36:59and just talk all day and, and that's just my personality. That's not everyone's personality. I think you learn as you go you say something or you plan something or you make that phone call that you've been waiting to make. And then you kind of have to roll with what results out of out of that motion that you've made. And again patience and there's a lot of forgiveness involved when you, you know, have a reunion with a sibling, a lot of forgiveness because you might say something and they might go, wait a minute.

37:33And, you know, to be open with that I think is really important when you're first addressing it just to say like this is uncharted territory. This isn't something that I've ever dealt with so if I say something that you know you find to be like, please just show me some grace. I mean, both parties kind of need to have an open mind and so I think that's important. I love what you said about wanting to just have everyone over at Thanksgiving I feel like that's the oldest child kind of trait to just, it's your oldest child trait just wanting to organize everything and yeah, that makes sense.

38:11I'd love them all to be here, you know, but everyone has their own life they all have their own parents and their own traditions and why would we come down and hang out with you, you know, and so baby steps, you know they people's lives just because you're ready to drop yours and invite them in doesn't mean, and that's not, you know, that's not terrible. That's, that's also natural. You know, I love what you said about showing grace for each other to that's an amazing thought and applicable for all of us but I love the application and adoption. Thanks. Yeah. All right. Um, just a quick side question. Do you and all of your siblings who are also adopted live close to each other to.

38:55Yeah, I mean, within five or six hours of each other. Okay. Yeah. Right. Without giving too much information away. Alright, so if you could share one thing with every other adoptee, what would it be. Oh, probably to stay true to what you believe you deserve. A lot of adoptees struggle with, you know, deserving feeling like they deserve the best confidence is something I think we struggle a lot with the rejection is tough.

39:41Even as an infant, you know, some people that aren't adopted kind of look at adoptees and go like, What do you mean it was rejection like you were a baby, like, you didn't know her, you know, it's just something that is embedded in us, and between me and you and whoever is listening to this, I think that all adoptees deserve to know where they came from. It's just something I feel really strongly about, and there's a nice way to go about it and probably a not nice way to go about finding, you know, them and I think I was probably a mixture of both, you know, as I powered through and, you know, kept myself in the forefront of, of what I was doing.

40:20But I think, just remember that in good time, you know, again, the patients but also don't sell yourself short, as far as you deserve that don't say it's not going to work or oh she doesn't want to meet me. Go another avenue, you know, like, my mom passed away. A year ago, and I'm still talking to people she went to school with and teachers that she had because I want to know her, and she's not here and so I can't call her and talk to her but I still deserve to know who she was, and that's going to help me just be an adult

40:54and me understand myself more and so, you know, I just just last week, just a couple weeks ago I spoke with a classmate, and she was in school with her the year after I was born, and it's fascinating because she could speak to her. After she had given a baby away I mean. So just because you can't get to, you know, the main person, it's okay still to to want to know and, and to go different avenues.

41:24Maybe not everyone would agree with that but I think people deserve to know it's, it's helpful for us as adults, you know, to fulfill that collective narrative that everyone deserves to have about their own life you know to have holes in it is really hard, especially as you get older. When you're a kid, you know when you're in your 20s it's like, but as you start to grow as your own person, I think it's really important to have all the all the facts that you can. Absolutely. So you've been able to talk to other people from your mom's life and learn more about that picture. That's really neat.

41:57Yeah. Yeah, I mean again it takes a lot of digging and a lot of patients you know her classmates. I went to her obituary, and there weren't shoes, you know, again like the story to me is very tragic and she was sort of. She didn't have a huge support network from the get go and so there's five or six entries on her obituary whereas for goodness sakes, when people die. Now you feel like it's just all over social media and you know just everyone pours out and there's go fund me

42:31and, you know, she very quietly left this earth which is very sad, and, but there was one person that wrote on there. And I just said, you've got to know something and so I just reached out and I just said like, can you tell me a story about her. You know I'm her daughter like can you tell me something and, and most people when you come at it at that angle you know it's not there's no malice there's no, you know, you're coming at it with a good heart, and you know she told me she used to wear like a camel jacket and pink frosted lipstick and I'm like, that's something I didn't know, you know, and that little piece creates you know fills another hole of something you didn't know about so keep pushing through, because it's, it's really.

43:14It's amazing when you start to get little pieces of, of her or of them. In all honesty, it's not. It's not super uncommon. Yeah, if you have the desire to find someone. That's what you do. You know, and again I hope that people don't listen and think I'm some sort of psycho that went on the witch hunt but there's something inside adoptees sometimes that you just, you need to know.

43:47Maybe just me. I don't think anyone's going to think you're a psycho. No. That's a very natural instinct and that makes sense. I think so. I've gotten comfortable with thinking so. How do you think your experience of being an adoptee has shaped your perceptions of birth and parenthood. Good question. Good question. Um, well first I, if you go to my Instagram I just did this, I just did this post I know this won't run like you're not going to like post this podcast right away but I just did this post about birth, and births

44:30are so triggering for me. I get this flood of emotions that, like, all of a sudden I was sitting in my mom's shoes. I'm sitting in the hospital room I'm holding this baby. And I'm wondering how can someone just hand over this baby. How can I give away my child to someone. And the hospital experience is a little bit different was different for me than I think someone. Again, I don't like to speak for other adoptees unless you know I've spoken to them but for me.

45:04I, I had this connection I felt like I was connected to my biological mom in the hospital, because I knew she had been in this place you know she had held this baby and she had, you know, I just felt like I was living her life for a little bit. And it's kind of why people, you know that are from other countries, go to those other countries, you know you're like in their footsteps like they visited this bar they went to this school, you know it's sort of why you revisit so every time I had a child.

45:35Not only was it triggering but it was almost comforting to be in that hospital, each time before I left I didn't want to leave. You know, we're getting ready to do the paperwork. And you know I start getting upset you know, you know anxiety about leaving and because once you leave that connection to your biological mom at least for me was gone. I left I have my baby which is the most happy day of my life. And also that wasn't her choice. And so the top, all of a sudden you start floating apart again, you know, in your delusional world of trying to relate to someone that you don't know, you know, and so hospital.

46:15Hospital visits for me, giving birth were extremely hard I mean beautiful wonderful moments I have this new baby and I was so lucky to go through it four times, which is ironic because you know she gave four of us up. And I was so short in the, you know, irony category of the story.

46:47You know we both had four and six years and that's, again, I think sometimes a little wink down from whoever's in charge, saying like, you'll figure this out later, you know you'll connect the dots later. And so, you know, I think that's the most, the most important thing. And so, you know, I think birth is, is pretty triggering for adoptees just in general. And I started with this baby thinking like how could anyone, how could anyone hand over their child you know and she had gone I couldn't ask her I couldn't you know I had all these new cells, those tough couple weeks.

47:22When she was gone and we had all these new people in my life and. So birth Yes, that's that's a hard one for adoptees in my mind. Yeah. What have you struggled with regarding adoption and what do you wish other people knew or understood about it. I would probably say, two questions. I wish. I wish people would acknowledge that there is some trauma and adoption.

47:55I mean, I was not living in a box because I didn't belong to these people, you know, I had this beautiful childhood, and so the trauma wasn't there as much as the initial separation from my mom. But I wish to acknowledge that there's great loss in adoption also, you know, it is this beautiful. It's so beautiful you know handing over a child to someone who can't have children or chooses to adopt for whatever reason.

48:33And I appreciate that beauty so much, but just make sure that you acknowledge the huge loss that that woman is going through. I mean the gratefulness is always there I see these stories and they're so grateful they're so grateful they're so grateful adopted for this biological mom but just don't forget, you know that loss. And again, I think now it's it's not quite so. I think people are really becoming more aware now. Then it used to be, especially because you know the mom a lot, you know these open adoptions are just, you know, the adoptive mom can call and just say like how are you.

49:09Like how are you doing today versus my parents who had a baby and, you know, couldn't even check on her, you know, see how he was doing because a lot of times these biological moms they don't have the support at home that's one of the reasons they give up these children is because. So, it would mean a lot to you know to have the adoptive mom call and check in and. So just remember you know the other side of it, this beautiful family that you're growing also comes with great loss. Yeah. And loss for the baby right like, yeah, that's a separation that's traumatic I think for many.

49:44Yeah. Yeah. And just to keep that in mind like later in the future. I mean it really wasn't an issue I had 18 years of not care and I was adopted. And then all of a sudden you know kind of took over my life. I mean, especially now as an adult and as I became a mom of my own. There doesn't go a day. Definitely not a week that I don't think about it. And that's important to remember too it's not just something that comes up on your birthday, you know birthdays are hard, but it's not just that day, you know just.

50:16So just be aware that that's also going on. Yeah. What are your hopes for the adoption community. You're working on your Instagram site and you're writing a memoir. What do you hope that the adoption community can gain from hearing your experience other adoptee experiences where do you hope we can get. So, through my experience, and hopefully this book, if I get it done for goodness sakes editing is like the longest process ever.

50:48But I've come to understand that support systems for adoptees are just enormous. And you can find a lot of people on Instagram that are willing to tell you all about their adoption story. But I don't know if we talked about this and you're more than welcome to cut this out if this is not, you know appropriate or whatever but my website is getting ready to launch, and I will be working with adoptees like one on one. And it's sort of, it doesn't exist until I said it did but it's called an adoptee doula, and it's a woman, a man you know an adoptee that works with other adoptees and you know the big plan in the works is, you know, to have a bunch of adoptee doulas that can talk to other

51:37adoptees because one day you wake up and you realize your adoption actually matters. And, you know, I'm sure you've heard the term coming out of the fog which is like, all of a sudden you go wait a minute like I need to address a little bit of this, you know, stop sweeping it under the rug. And I don't know when that happens it's different for everyone but I think I'd love for people to read the story and and go oh my gosh me too, or hear a podcast and think you know, I am, I don't have a good memory you know even the smallest

52:08little things that you can relate that you can relate to that someone else is openly speaking about, and then to connect, whether it's with me or with another adoptee. It's so helpful and I wish it was like offered to people like out in the open, you know, a therapist that's adopted or a counselor that's adopted or someone just to hold your hand the doula, you know, one on one person that can call and check on you.

52:38And that's, that's sort of the goal here is, and I'm excited about it. See, you know, it's got some work, we've got some time and work to do but that's the goal hopefully is that people understand they're not by themselves in this. And again, open adoption doesn't create quite the problem as when we closed adoptees wake up and go, ah, you know, but open adoption equally you know I think there's a lot of things that adopted parents can do for their kids or adolescents you know

53:10kids is kids are tricky you're just trying to survive. And I just want to talk about it and I just wish services were offered openly and it wasn't like, hush hush and it wasn't because some explosion happened or because you know you got this text I just wish it was openly offered you know through agencies

53:42or through, you know, anyone that kind of advocates for adoptees you know adult adoptees I think. I think it will get there. Yeah, I mean, trying to make your story into something good, you know, like, wouldn't it be great if we all just honestly spoke about our lives and connected with people on that Instagram I have a love hate relationship, you know, there's so much out there that people relate to that isn't even, you know, reasonable or realistic and so you can take a story like this and make it into something great.

54:23That's I'm here for it. That's what I want to do. That's beautiful. All right, is there anything else that you want to talk about today. I don't think so you really you got me. You touched on everything I think. Thank you for letting me share and kind of be here for it and I just had a great time. Thank you so much for sharing. I really really appreciate it. It's a beautiful story. Thank you for being vulnerable. I know. That's hard. I appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Well, it's my favorite thing my favorite thing is to, you know, be able to talk to people

54:59about it if they can just take one thing away. You know if I affected one person I feel like if we all lived our life trying to affect one person at a time that would be a great way, you know to spread joy. I love that well Mary. This was so fun. Thank you. Thank you for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. We want to sincerely thank Mary for being on the podcast with us.

55:29We are so grateful for her vulnerability and opening up and sharing so much of her personal story and just her thoughts and the experiences that she's had as an adoptee. I really love her focus on trying to help other adoptees as well with coping with the different traumas and experiences they've had as adoptees, and I love her kindness and how she talks about others in her story and the grace that she shows everybody.

56:01She was wonderful to talk to and had such a beautiful story, and we hope that you really enjoyed it. For me as an adoptive parent. It just kept highlighting over and over for me that I just need to make sure that we have a lot of dialogue between us and our children and about how they're feeling toward adoption, and I have to be okay and realize that sometimes they might not feel great about adoption, but I need to be a safe place where they can voice their concerns or any problems or any thoughts that they're having in a safe way so that we can process through those feelings together.

56:37Yeah, and be a support to them. I love that that resonated with me too. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. If you want to check out our website, it is open adoption project.org, and we'll be back next week with another episode where we'll be hearing from a birth mother and her perspective and story. If you could take just a moment and jump onto Apple podcast and leave us a five star review and some thoughts about the podcast we'd really appreciate that, as you might know, as people search for podcasts, typically those that have more reviews or higher reviews are those

57:13that go up first and we as a couple have tried really hard to put together a great resource for members of the adoption community in this podcast and we would love for more people to be able to find it so if you could do that for us we'd really appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project.

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