Challenging the “Lucky Adoptee” Narrative with Allison Olson

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 80. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun. In today's episode, Lanette has a conversation with Allison Olson, who is an adoptee, an adoptive parent, and also a children's author who focuses on writing adoption-related content. We're really excited for this episode. Allison shares some thoughts about openness in adoption, about adoptee's mental health, and so many other things that are just really helpful for everyone in the community,

0:32but particularly this episode, I think, is great for those who are prospective adoptive parents. So we're going to just jump right into this conversation with Allison and Lanette, and we hope you enjoy. We are here on the podcast with Allison Olson. Allison, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me. To start off, can you share a bit about who you are?

1:04Sure. So I am an adoptee and an adoptive parent. I am also a children's book author, specifically around the topic of adoption. And so my background, I was born in 1979 and adopted in 1980. So obviously my adoption is closed. Just open adoption wasn't really a thing back then. And our youngest daughter has an open adoption. So not only is it open, we have a very good relationship with her mom and her whole extended family.

1:39In fact, we're going to visit them in two weeks. Oh, that's cool. We're traveling. Yeah, it's a cross-state situation. So we always have to make plans to go visit. It's not as casual as just going down the street. But it's always good to see everybody. So yeah, that's my general background. Awesome. Yeah, do you want to share anything else about your adoption? Yeah. So back in 1979, let me just, since you're an adoptive parent, you can, it's good to know how it used to be at different times.

2:13The wait list for my parents was about five to seven years. And this was very common for adoption agencies. They also had radiuses of families they were willing to work with. So if you moved outside of that radius, and these were small, small radiuses, you had to find a new adoption agency and start this five to seven year wait over. In addition to that, there was an age cap. And I don't know if there are age caps now. If there are, they must be like really high.

2:43I don't know, but I think it's pretty rare. Yeah. But they were really young age caps. In fact, younger than I am now. So I'm 44 and my mom would always say it was 42. So she was always watching the clock and there was this anxiety of, will we hit the seven years? And it's like too late, right? And so that was the situation that they were in. It was a very different, it was a whole different world. And they did move and they did have to start over.

3:15My older brother is adopted as well. And then we always get this question. So I'm just going to answer it before you ask. No, he is not biologically related to me. And so they adopted him first. And then there was a waiting period and I'm not sure what that waiting period was. But then they put their name back on the list. So think about if it's five to seven years for the first child, it must be longer for a second child, right? Because they always give preference to families that did not have children, right?

3:51And so they were expecting a long wait before it was time for me. And six months into the wait, they got a baby born phone call. And back then they didn't do it quite the same. They wanted to see how invested the family was. So they actually called when they were on vacation and said, you need to get here. We have a new social worker you need to meet. And they're like, can we just wait till the end of our vacation? They said, no, no, it's urgent.

4:22So they fly back to go meet the social worker. Then when they're there, they are told there is a baby that was born and basically the family wants you guys. So even back then they were letting birth moms kind of look through these generalized things. So it wasn't like pictures and stuff like that. They're still very, very close. They didn't they did not know much other than couple already had a boy, that kind of stuff.

4:52And so anyway, so at that moment, they find out that I exist and I am in the hospital that I have just entered the world. In fact, that was five days after I was born. And they're told to just head over to the hospital. And so my mom makes one quick phone call because you got to think about how young my brother is. My brother's only a year and a half older than me. So he was still in a crib. So they didn't have an extra crib. So she's like, can I just make one phone call before we drive over there?

5:23So she calls my grandpa. She's like, you need to go to the store right now. I'm a crib, go to her house and put it together. We're coming home with baby. So they went to the hospital and so straight from the hospital, I was part of my family. So that is my experience. Wow. That's really fascinating that they kind of do these mind games to see. Oh, really interesting. Yeah, it was a whole different world then.

5:54And then when you think about it too, with those really small radiuses of adoption, that means like the birth family was like basically within an hour and a half radius of this certain area. So that's also an interesting concept to think back on. Like now when international adoption is, you know, it's just like, yeah. Oh, but with the close adoption, that's really interesting to know this where within this

6:24radius, you could have your biological family so close. You could be seeing them. That's correct. Or whatever. Fascinating. Okay. So you talked about how you wrote an adoption children's book. Can you share more about that? Yes. So, you know, keeping in mind that as an adoptee, then going through the process of becoming an adoptive parent. So we had, we have an oldest daughter who's biological.

6:54And then as most parents that go through adoption, we had secondary infertility. And so by the time we had like made the decision of adoption, which really wasn't that far in for us, just because of our experience, right? I'm adopted. My brother's adopted. A cousin is about like lots and lots of family members are adopted. My husband also, he is adopted by his father.

7:24So his mom was a single mom when she met his father. And then when he was one, he adopted him. So again, we just between us, we have a big adoption history. So I think that gives you a different perspective going into being an adoptive parent. So I went out, you know, we had the nursery all ready to go. Right. And I went out and bought all of the new, highly recommended adoption books, right? For kids. And I just had this big old stack.

7:54We love books. So it's big old stack. And I still had mine from 1979. There were two books that I had back in 1979. I don't know if more existed, but we had those two and they were very factual. And I will be honest that I was shocked at the changes in the books between then and now. There was, it depended on the different books. So one of the biggest things that was an obvious thing that was missing in a lot of books was the birth mom.

8:24She almost definitely was not illiterate. And then if she was mentioned, it was like all the negativity, like the struggles and everything that she went through. And it didn't talk anything about the love. And I felt like it was unbalanced. So some of them would, you know, it was clear. It was clear to me when I read it that some were written by adoptive parents and that some were written just by authors who did not have a lot of connection to adoption. And so the ones that were written by adoptive parents, they were very, very loving from the adoptive parent side.

8:58So there's one and I'll describe it without, you'll know the book when I start describing it, but it's a mother bear reading to a baby bear sitting on a chair. You know, we wanted you for so long. I'm going to avoid the words that are in the title, but we wanted you for so long and this want and this dream grew and grew. And then there's a whole page and a half talking about the birth mom, but she struggled and this was a difficult decision for her, blah, blah, blah.

9:28By the end of the book as an adoptee, I had never felt more abandoned. And I thought, I am never reading this book to my child. And it didn't feel even. It did not feel even. There's no way that the adoptive parents did not have struggle to get them to the point of adoption. And there's no way the birth mom did not have love to get her to the point of adoption. So it was very selective to choose your love and her struggle.

9:59And so that is where I decided that I had to write a book. I mean, in fact, I told my husband, I go, I do not have time for this, but I have to write this. And so that's why mine's called surrounded by love, because I actually made it equal. I took the love that the birth mom had before and after birth and the love that adoptive parents have before and after birth. And that is what I focus on the whole time. And so it makes the adoptee feel and know how loved they are.

10:34And I just thought that was important because, again, coming in being two sides of the adoption triad, you know, I was able to see things like a little bit differently going through the, you know, the adoption process as an adoptive parent. And we were forming the strong relationship with our daughter's birth mom. And we were seeing her pain and her struggle. But what we were seeing through that was the immense amount of love she had for her.

11:06And I just thought she cannot grow up not knowing this. And why are we not telling adoptees this story? And so then that also transpired into a couple of things in the book specifically. So I have an owl, Wanda the owl, who you could see the plushie right behind me. She's the narrator. And that was important to me to have it be a third party that was telling the young adoptee that this book is being read to that you are loved.

11:38It's not this other child in this other adoption situation is loved that you are loved. And so it goes through and, you know, it starts with the adoptive parents and it walks through, you know, they wanted you and loved you before you were born. They wished on shooting stars and meditated. They prayed they wanted you to be added to their family. And then it also goes in the same time. At that time, your birth mom got pregnant. She loved you even when you're tiny in her belly.

12:08Like these are words that are not said to adoptees and definitely not in print. And so to me, I just thought that was it was very important to get that message out. And then I will tell you when I wrote the story, because I know we were talking about this before before we started recording about about books and stuff. But I actually wrote the story in the middle of feedings in the middle of the night because I was so honored to be her mom and so happy that she was at my house.

12:39I probably didn't sleep for weeks because and not out of like fear or anything like that. Of, you know, the parenting stuff. I just wanted to stare at her. I just like was so so it'd be like the middle of the night and she's sleeping. We had this like separate room with the bassinet and a bed. So like whoever's turn it was would like we'd let the other one sleep. I would just sit there and stare at her and I had my phone there and I just wrote the story that I would want to tell her about our family and about her birth mom.

13:13And so that's that's where this all this all came about. Wow. So beautiful. I love how you saw those imbalances and found a way to tell a better story like a more rounded story. Yeah. And there were other ones. I mean, I can go through kind of my list of things that that were, you know, I know that we're also here to talk about the lucky versus loved my passion of changing that narrative. There were several books that focused on a lucky narrative for the child.

13:45Like we came in and saved you. There's one where there's actually a spread in the book that said you needed a home. We were there to give you a home like, oh, that doesn't give you the X, you know. And so it was just like seeing enough of that. I'm like, OK, well, I can't I can't read these books to my kids. And in fact, I still I have them hidden in my in the basement so that my husband doesn't accidentally grab them off of a bookshelf. That's how important it is to me to not read those books to her.

14:17Yeah. The narratives we tell kids are powerful. They're very powerful. We have we have very open adoptions with all of our kids. But one of my children came home from school. It's been a few years. She was quite a bit younger, but she came home from school and one day said, I'm so glad that you guys adopted me. Otherwise, I would be an orphan. And we were like, no, you wouldn't. Oh, not true. And you see your birth mom all the time and she adores you. Yeah, there's no way she would have just. Yeah.

14:47Anyway, no, but that's a very good point. And that's a very good story. I we have as an adoption community done a great job, I would say, of progressing over the years within our triad, within our triad. So, you know, about 90 percent of adoptions are open in the United States. In fact, if you wanted to close adoption, it would be very, very difficult. That would be a birth mom really pressing to have it.

15:18And likely she's going through a lawyer not to have a child. Luckily, she's going through a lawyer, not an agency, because very few agencies will even do that these days. And so we have made big strides. Right. We know more about the positive adoption language. We know that love surrounds this child. But outside of the adoption triad, I will go so far as to say, I think people are still stuck in the 1950s because we have not done a good job of externally educating.

15:51That's a great thought. So how would you suggest going about that? I know that's a huge question. Yeah, you know, it's it's a good question. So so I always say this because I think other communities have done a great job. Right. So let's let's just use like the trans community. You know, you will get someone that maybe has no close relationship with anyone in the trans community. Ask you your preferred pronouns. So they have done an excellent job.

16:21So, you know, I don't know how we get there as a whole, but I do think education and the easiest way to start educating is children. And and that's actually my second book that comes out in October this year. It's called Learning About My Friend's Adoption. And this boy. Yeah, this boy, this little boy learns that his friend is adopted. And so he's he is excited about this new knowledge. And so it's the dinner table and he's telling his family what all he learned.

16:54And then it goes back and it shows his conversation. So he's asking questions, she's answering them. And with that, it's the common questions that I used to get asked that I know my daughter will get asked. And so I'm also trying to take that heavy load off the adoptee. And so then when you think about it, when other family members who are like, we want to educate little cousin, that there's a new child entering the family, like, how do we do that? This book is the perfect way because there, you know, there are a few books out there that are like, you're going to adopt a sibling.

17:28There are some out there that are like cousins. There are very few that are like, hey, I'm just a friend or we don't know anyone adopted, but someday my child might run into someone who's adopted and I want them to understand diversity. And so that's that's why I wrote that book, too. That's an incredible I love that you're doing that. And I love your thought of starting educating with children. That makes sense. I just think it's the easiest way to to get it started because I just I can't imagine an adult being inspired to pick up a book to learn about adoption when they already probably feel like they know and they oftentimes don't.

18:13Yeah. So I can see notions. Yeah, it blows my mind. The things that people say and. All the time. Yeah, the grocery store. It's exhausting. Like, how much do you want to go around just correcting people? And I don't know. It's exhausting. You know what? And that is a good that is a good point, especially for your listeners. So the one thing that I say is to give peace of mind to adoptive parents, you know, as as an adoptee, I want to give some peace of mind because you always want to stand up for your child.

18:46You always want to have the best comeback. But sometimes when you're in a rush and you're just like, OK, we're getting ready. We're trying to go to this birthday party, whatever. And you're just like, I need to stop by whatever store and get something. We're on our way. That's when it's going to happen. And yes, your child might be with you and you might be just like, taking it back. Like, what? I was just fumbling to get my credit card. What's happening? You know, it's all OK as long as you talk about it with your child. Right.

19:18So if you get back in the car and you're like, oh, I handled that poorly. I had, you know, I wish I could have thought of something better. We're just in such a rush. You know, don't you think that was a really silly thing for them to say to us? Oh, yeah. Another silly adoption thing, you know. And that's over. Right. And then two days later, a day later, whenever you actually come up with what your answer would have been to that person, you say to your child, you know what, remember when we were at the store and we were rushing to get to that birthday party and that clerk said X, Y, Z.

19:49And we talked about it was a silly thing to say, and I didn't know how to answer him. Here's what I would have said now. I love that. And then, you know, what you did as an adoptive parents, you talked about adoption twice. So it's a win for you. So don't I think the biggest thing is don't try to be perfect. If you wait for the perfect time to talk about adoption, you will never do it. And so you just fumble your way through every time you can. And until you start to feel really comfortable with it. And that's why they say start talking to babies about if you adopt an infant

20:24so that you have more and more time to get comfortable. You know, it's like I you would think, oh, I must know how to say it because I'm an adoptive. No, sometimes I'm also thrown for a loop. Like, oh, you're going to, you know, like you're going to talk about, you know, my daughter's beautiful blue eyes and who she gets it from with my, you know, brown eyes and my Asian husband. Like, like, we're going to have this discussion here. I don't even know you guys, you know. And so it's like. It's never perfect.

20:56You just have to try and you just have to know the end goal is to always talk about it, always normalize it, always be open about it, always be honest about details. That's another thing that adoptive parents, I think, are a little fearful about doing. So especially, you know, other things might be happening in the birth family's lives that that made it difficult. Right. For them to to raise the child. And some sometimes those are really big, really big things that might be very scary to mention.

21:27Like, I'm going to go I'm going to go a little extreme here, like a prison. Right. They need to know that they need to know that and they will find out. And so so don't try to hide anything. You just try to be honest. And the more it's a fact and just part of their lives, the more they'll be accustomed to it and it'll be OK. And it won't it won't be some big secret that everyone's trying to hide from them. It's just a fact. You know, so that and you were talking earlier about the importance of making sure we're including how much these birth parents love their child.

22:06And so the facts talking about the struggles, but also talking about the love, talking about the love. Exactly. Because this is a huge decision, a huge decision. There is no way that love is not part of that. So why do you feel like the adoption community needs to change the narrative from lucky adoptee? Yes. Yes. As you are aware, this is this is my passion and I am trying to help out as much as I can through children's literature for this change.

22:42But it has lifelong lasting negative effects on on a human being. So no one should have to feel grateful for being alive. No one should have to feel grateful to another human being for their survival. It is not that as you said, what we tell our children when they're young, it has a big impact. Right. So if you it's just the same as if a child was growing up and you told one child you are smart, you are smart, told another child you are stupid, you are stupid.

23:20Even if they both had the same test scores and grades when you started doing that, guess who's going to excel and who's not? And there are many, many, many studies. And if you want, I can send you a couple of links to them. But about the damage of people being told they need to feel grateful for for their life and that they should they should feel lucky that they are adopted. And they, you know, the the best case scenario is you have an over people pleaser, which is terrible.

23:53That means they sacrifice their own needs and and all of that for other people. So you imagine someone that grows up like that, how easily they can end up in a bad relationship with with a partner where I mean, there's just there's so much damage that would have to be undone from that type of a narrative. And so that's that's why I feel strongly about it. Right. Just because, again, like people that are listening to this podcast and they're they're trying to continuously learn as adoptive parents, you know, that they're doing a great job.

24:32You know, like you have to try you have to understand what somebody else went through to know how to make sure you're not accidentally doing that to your child. Right. So even as an adoptee, I only have one lived experience and my brother has a lived experience. Even his is different than mine. And so I listen to his I basically my whole Instagram feed is adoptee voices because I want to hear what they have gone through and understand so that I can make changes moving forward.

25:06And the one thing that I will say that is the most interesting to me about this lucky narrative is that it just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense at all in my world, because whether our daughter had been placed with us or whether she had stayed with her birth mom and her birth family or whether she was placed with the hundreds of other waiting perspective, adoptive parents, she was always going to be loved. So who's the lucky one? You ask any adoptive parents, we know it's us.

25:43We are the lucky ones. We are the ones that are. Honored and humbled to get to raise this wonderful, very loved child. And it is our duty to make sure that they know that love and feel that love and and that we respect all of the love from all of the different members of their family towards them. Yeah. Yeah. It's always so cringy, isn't it? When you hear someone say, oh, your child is so lucky to be adopted by you.

26:17Yeah. Or thank you for adopting. We find out that we were like waiting to adopt us like, oh, thank you. And we're like, no, no. It's cringy. Yeah. Yeah. And of course, they mean it well. But they mean it. Everyone is well meaning to us stuff. But that doesn't change that fact. So I now have a little my comeback is always like, oh, no, no, she's not lucky. We're lucky. And I just like and I like even give the hand, you know, no, no, she's not lucky. We're lucky.

26:47I love that so much. Well, and I've spoken with so many adoptees who do. I mean, I won't say like always struggle with this, but many adoptees have struggled with wanting to keep their adoptive parents happy. Right. And like, oh, I don't really want to search right now because I don't want to ruffle or whatever. And that's a really interesting thought that that stems from this lucky narrative feeling like you're not able to really be your own person and look for things you're wanting to look for.

27:22That's correct. The only way you are of value on this earth is being grateful. And if you aren't always showing that you're grateful, that that's when it throws it out of whack, which is terrible. You know, nobody nobody should live like that. And we all know it's not the case. And that's the craziest. Yeah, it's like even back when I was adopted. Yeah. Well, that's that's one interesting thing about this narrative. It has really changed over time. So I realize I have a different experience than other people have had.

27:53But in nineteen seventy nine, I it was very rare that was said. Right. So even in because I looked back at my two books from when I was a child and it definitely the theme, it's not in there. It was very factual. Right. Like you were born, you were adopted. These are your parents. They're going to be raising you. So it wasn't talking about emotions or anything. I was just like factual, kind of like like where'd you come from? Kind of factual book. But I think it was over the years and I think it is also the way media kind of portrayed some celebrity adoptions overseas.

28:31And I don't even think the celebrities view it as them saving children. But the media made it look like that. And so I think a lot of it's like it had a bigger impact widespread because, again, people weren't coming up to my parents when I was young and saying anything, because also back then it was, oh, are you telling them they're adopted? Yeah, yeah, we're telling them. But because back then it was like, oh, well, they look like you, so it's OK, we can hide it.

29:02And they're like, no, no, we're not trying to hide it. But that was more of the thing back then. But, yeah, the lucky narrative has just really grown over time. And like I said, my goal is to come in and kind of squash it so that people understand that, you know, it's not you think it sounds like a positive book and you think it sounds like, oh, you know, we love you so much, we're helping you out. But the truth is, it does have a big lifelong impact to it.

29:35So what was the process like for you as an adoptee, switching gears a little bit? Yeah. You decided to adopt as you made that decision. It was a big decision. And obviously, you know, it's a decision that's kind of up to each family, right? Because that's one thing that I don't do is I don't encourage people that are not already have not already made that decision. It's like that's totally up to people to make that.

30:09But for us, it was different because we have such a connection to adoption. Right. So we had multiple miscarriages, the kind that people don't tend to talk about. So I'll just talk about it here real quick, just so that if anybody can relate, they can feel like, hey, there's somebody else. The kind of miscarriages with zero signs. So late first term going in for like your second ultrasound, everything was fine on the first ultrasound. You've got all the symptoms, no bleeding, nothing like that.

30:42And then they're like, no heartbeat. And they'll usually say a pretty cold like that because they don't understand that that's shocking information to someone that feels very pregnant. So went through that three times and we said, that's enough. That's enough. I mean, first, investors not enjoyable anyways, a lot of a lot of morning sickness and exhaustion. We're like, this is not supposed to be us. And they gave me a booklet on IVF and I took it home.

31:13So this is like a folder with a whole bunch of pamphlets and stuff in it. And I love researching. So I will tell you, I'm a big researcher brought at home. You know, I was also still healing from because you have to either take pills or have surgery to remove the to remove the baby from your body that has passed away. And so I was recovering and it sat there. The folder sat there on the table the whole weekend. And my husband said, is this our son?

31:44I'm like, yeah. He's like, all right. He's like, let's just sign up for adoption. He's like, you said this from the beginning. Like, I know I did. Like after after miscarriage number one, I'm like, I don't want to go through this again. And and then it just, you know, took until the third one. And and I don't say that to scare anyone about about miscarriages or anything like that. I want people to know that they're very common and I want them to know that, you know, you have someone else that that has been through it with you. Probably many, many women that have been through it with you.

32:16And yeah, so for us, adoption was was the way to go. And then I just did a whole bunch of research. So, again, didn't look in that IVF folder at all. But then as soon as we decided on adoption, did a ton of research, I wanted to go through an agency that was extremely ethical. I wanted it was important to me the way that they treated both us and the birth mom. And so did a whole bunch of research into that, actually looked at different forums and ratings and stuff from birth moms.

32:49And then a big thing about the way they treated us was I wanted them to answer the phone. There were so many places that you call and you have to you start by leaving a message, you know, and then later they return it. I liked this particular place we went through answered the phone when we call and they're huge, huge national agency. And and yeah, so so that is that is how we we went through that route. So what would you want potential adoptive parents to know about adoption before they consider it both as an adoptee and yeah.

33:25Yeah, I I would say there's a few different things, but I would say the biggest one that I would like to leave them with is understanding of openness. So so I know that you and I were kind of talking about that before we started recording. So there is a big difference between closed and open and people like to think it's a light switch and it is not. So I say the closed is one thing. Right. And then once you've switched the light switch on, then it's a full dimmer for open.

33:59So there is a there is a full scale of openness. So from we know names and that's it. No relationship, never met them, but we know names is open all the way to birth grandparents watch the kids every weekend. You know what I'm saying? So like it's like that whole spectrum. But the big difference for folks to know is that closed adoption actually means that the names of their birth family are legally sealed from them.

34:35I want to put this in perspective. I'm 44 years old. I'm a professional adult. My records are still legally sealed from me from the courts. Our tax dollars are preventing me from just getting my original birth certificate. And that to me is completely unethical. And that is the difference. So I do see in forums and I'll go back to my advice on the perspective of full adoptive parents. But I've seen in some forums some some folks that kind of don't understand closed versus open adoption because they will say things like,

35:13you know, we haven't heard back from from the birth family in a while. Our open adoption has turned closed. That is not true at all. I mean, adoptees are still fighting, you guys fighting the courts and every single state has different laws. So they're fighting in the courts to just get access to a name, first and last name on a birth certificate. That's it. That's all we're looking for. So so that is a huge difference. And then the reason I want to talk about openness for people that are just looking into adoption.

35:46So very likely adoption is new to you. Right. If you're just looking into it, very likely. You know, it's very it's rare that there's an adoptee that's going through the adoption process. But for those that don't have as much connection to adoption, not current open relationships that exist out there right now, please know that it is in the best interest of the child to have an open relationship with their birth family.

36:16And then I want to say this as clear as I can, as an adoptee, you are still their parent. Please, please have confidence in that this child is growing up when they have a nightmare, they're crying for you. When they score a goal in a soccer game, they're looking at your face for that excitement. You are their parents having additional people, just more people to love for you to love, to love them.

36:50It's only a positive thing. So what I say is like love only grows. It does not divide. I have never heard of anyone going to their oldest child and they are about to adopt or have a second child and say, hey, hey, it's time I break the news to you. I'm going to love you less now. So I'm about to have another child. It does not work like that. And we all understand it doesn't work like that. But for some reason, it is tough for folks, especially when you're not exposed to adoption,

37:23to have that understanding that this birth family is very important to your child. It's important to them to know their heritage, to know where they come from, to see a person that maybe looks like them, maybe even acts like them or speaks like them. This is all very, very important to them. And if you show love and respect to things that are important to them, that's going to make a huge difference to your child. So you think about, you know, your your child gets really into dinosaurs.

37:56You're like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to look up all the names of the dinosaurs haven't haven't looked them up since fifth grade. But here I am looking up all these names of dinosaurs, because that's important to your child. It's the same with adoption and the relationship with the birth family. Beautiful. Thank you so much. And on that note, it reminds me of the importance of making sure we're talking positively about our kids, birth families, too. Yes, they're important to them and it's part of who they are. Yes. Thank you. Yes. Well, I think that that's important to start preparing.

38:28So if you are, you know, a waiting, hopeful adoptive parent, right. So you're already like on the list. You've gone through the home study. That's important. Use that time to start preparing your family, cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, everyone on positive adoption language and how to speak about the birth family, whether the child is present or not. It's very, very important that we are positive about the birth family, even no matter what situation it is.

39:00And then also for them to understand that the adoption story belongs to the child, not to you. So it's always interesting to me when somebody comes up and says, oh, you should meet so and so they're an adoptive parent, their kids. And so this is some extra person that knows us both. Their kids came from this and this situation, doctor from foster care and knew all these details. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I do want to meet this about this parent. So I can say, please stop from this moment on, please, please stop because it's up to them what they want other people to know and don't know.

39:37And growing up to give them that control is also very healthy and healing for them to know, you know, when they feel comfortable with different people, what they want to share and what they don't. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll say thank you. All right. So what have you struggled with regarding adoption and what do you wish others understood? We've talked about this throughout, but. Yes. So I would say the biggest thing that I've struggled with and that the biggest challenge right now in in the adoption community.

40:14And I'll just I'll I'll take it to a negative level here. I just want to make sure everybody's aware of this. There have been multiple studies that have been done and adoptees are four times more likely to attempt suicide. That is staggering. That is staggering. And so, you know, while I don't think that my books are going to solve this problem by any means, I do think that what we are talking about with this lucky narrative, it is extremely damaging when you feel that you are so not important,

40:50that your whole life and your whole purpose to be on this planet is to thank someone else that does that does really negative stuff to your mental health. And so, you know, and there are a slew of other reasons that could be causing it. I'm just saying let's just pick the one and let's fight that reason and let's get that statistic down. So I would say that is the biggest challenge. And that's that's the biggest fear for me in the community is losing other fellow adoptees.

41:24Yeah, you're right. That is staggering. That's a terrible statistic. So how do you think others can be more supportive of adoptees? I think listening to adoptee voices and like I said, even if they're very different than your child's situation. Right. Also, former foster youth, also very important voices to listen to. Like I said, I'm an adoptee and I still do it every day.

41:54It's my it's my whole Instagram feed because I want to know what they're thinking, what they're feeling, what is hurting their feelings, what they're OK with, what if there are any bills out there that they're fighting to get their to get their legal documents available to them. You know, like I want to be there to support that. And so I think knowledge, knowledge is always what can break down silos and it just benefits everyone,

42:25because the more we all learn, the more we all know and we can we can do better. I love that. So what do you wish adoption education looked like, particularly after going through the adoption process as an adult who was adopted? Yes. So I want to give some props to again, inside the adoption community. I think home studies and agencies have improved leaps and bounds.

42:55So we went through we were required to go through 20 hours of an online course about attachment. So I feel like that is really good. I will say I can't speak much to private adoption. It's just through like an attorney. They tend not to like require the training. But again, if you had to go through the home study, hopefully that home agency would require it. Right. So my big thing with the education is actually outside of our community.

43:28And that is other family members, that is strangers at the grocery store. You know, it's a myriad of different of different things. And like in our case, we have a sibling who is not adopted. And so we need to we need to have her educated so that she can also stop things. Right. On the playground, somebody says something to an adoptee. I want her to stop it or step in and support the adoptee. They're just all of that different education, those different levels.

43:59And so all I would say is, you know, it's up to us as a community to do that education. And I'm going to put it more on the adaptive parents. And then some is always on the adoptee for their whole life. They're educating people. And then oftentimes the birth family doesn't know enough. So sometimes you'll get those type of phrasing from the birth family. So it's a little bit gentler, but you do need to be educating everyone so that everyone's kind of saying the same thing.

44:34But, yeah, I think you think about it in levels, right, if someone's really, really close to you. Right. So so think about an older aunt or uncle or something like that. Right. And they've said a couple of things. They're like, oh, that's like that's not the current stuff to say. Right. And that's not OK to say around my child. Pull them aside and have that conversation with them in a manner that you think would be effective. Right. Then for for others, you just do it by their level of how close they are to you.

45:05So, like, like I said, when it gets to like the grocery store clerk, you can just squash it, you know, especially if you're a transracial, trans racially adopted family. Like and so like you walk in and they say weird stuff because obviously you all look different. You know, it's like you just find find a couple little short liners that you can say without even thinking. Right. To just squash it like, yep, we all look different, but the kids sure do look better than us or whatever it is.

45:40Say it, make it be a little funny, make sure the kids feel OK with what you're saying and get out of there. People are always quote unquote well-meaning. Sometimes people are a little nosy, all these different things, but none of it warrants exposing anything about that child's adoption story. You know, so just try to balance it. But again, no matter what you do, even if you do it wrong and you regret it, you can't sleep that whole night like we talked about before. You tell the child the next day, this is what I wish I had said.

46:13And then good for you. Two adoption conversations. So that's that's where my head would be at is the education around what I would call non-adoptees. They have no idea they're even called non-adoptees, which also shows. Our lack of education outside the adoption community. So interesting. And all of these jokes and different things about adoption that come from the non-adoptee,

46:44like people who don't have any connection to the adoption community, who just don't realize how hurtful it is. I'll give you an example of one. This was family of family. So not my immediate family, but family of a person that I was at their barbecue. And they were older and one was holding my baby. So holding an adoptee and saying to an adoptee, having this conversation with this older gentleman while she was holding my baby.

47:17He's like, oh, yeah, we used to make fun of my middle brother and tell him he was adopted, blah, blah, blah. But I'm an adoptee. So I've heard this junk my whole life. And so I said, oh, well, that I said something. I can't honestly, I can't really remember what I said, but I grabbed my baby and got out of there. I didn't want I did not want her to hear it. I didn't want him to even think that story was OK.

47:48I mean, I think I even said something probably a little harsh, you know, like, well, that's a terrible story. You probably feel bad about that now, don't you? Grab the baby went like outside that we were inside and I went outside at the barbecue. But I think sometimes for some people, because that's not my family, it's not my family member, it's not a bond I need to keep. There's also times where I've seen people post on forums, hey, this person, we've had conversations and they just will not change their behavior.

48:19You are the protector and the guide, you know, the caretaker for your own child. And so it is up to you. You can then set boundaries. That person does not come inside our house if they do not change their language. They cannot come inside their house or we do not go visit them. And maybe that would start to change things or at minimum, it will protect your child. So I'm just using extreme cases. Most people don't have that. Usually people are very loving. They're excited to have another member to the family.

48:52They want to know how to do right. Right. And they oftentimes will ask you that. So I think another thing would be have some stuff ready. Right. You know, how there are there are like memes and there are one cheaters to show like positive adoption language. And we've got some on my website, our adoption books dot com. So you can send them there with my friend and I. We talk about adoption all the time, like these really short clips, like how do you answer?

49:23You're you're so lucky. How do you know all these different things? OK, so our adoption books dot com. Oh, you are. Yeah, yeah, because it's my friend and I, we both wrote adoption books at the same time. That's very cool. Yeah. So how has your own adoption story impacted the way that you parent? That is an excellent question. Being from a closed adoption and now having an open adoption, I put so much more focus on it.

49:53Like, I just cherish that relationship with her family. And. It means so much to me, in fact, I mean, it's it's very it's one of those things where you don't realize your own. Your own things, issues, whatever. I mean, I will go ahead and say the word trauma because we all know trauma is related to adoption. But but my own trauma from being from a closed adoption, I'll give you a perfect example.

50:23So with her adoption being out of state, that particular state, our lawyer said, whatever you do, you cannot lose this finalization document. You cannot get one in the mail. You must fly back, go to the courthouse, do all this stuff if you ever lose this document. So he's like, I actually recommend you get a fireproof safe just for these documents. I'm like, OK, that's good to know. We go back home. We get this fireproof safe. I start filling in with everything from her birth mom.

50:53And I will rephrase that because we hang it up on the wall. I have this like love board. It's this crap word that's like pictures that her her family draws and sends and photos and all that stuff. So I have that up on a regular basis, but there are letters and things with her mom's handwriting and that specifically that we couldn't get back. You know what I'm saying? If there was a fire, I have those in this. And my husband went in to look for something because we have our passports in there, too.

51:27And he's like, what is all of this? I'm like, I don't want anything to ever happen in her not have her mom's handwriting because I have never seen my mom's handwriting. Like that's so like that should really impact an adoptive parent of how important this stuff is. You know, and so, you know, we try to we celebrate her birthday. We so, you know, it's like we celebrate her on Mother's Day and we, you know, we go visit and we do these different things. And we try to have a relationship that is respectful of her and her time and her boundaries and supportive of her daughter all at the same time.

52:05But I would say that that's the biggest thing for me is just really cherishing that the relationship with all of them. I love that. That's beautiful. And the safe is a great idea. There you go. Don't have one of those. It's a good idea. All right. Do you have any other thoughts on how adoptive parents can better support adoptees and their biological families? Who supporting them all together? I would say just be curious with with your child.

52:36Right. And as they want to know more, you can want to know more with them and help them to get that information and view them as being able to have even more family. Like, it's interesting because, you know, so many studies on the adoptee and the benefit of open relationship for the adoptee. But it's very beneficial for the adoptive parents, too. You know, like, yeah. And so, like, when I grew up, obviously, we didn't know different things.

53:10Right. And so there were a lot of assumptions that were made, like one being that I was going to be very tall, which is still hilarious because I'm five one. But I was a very tall child. I was five one until fifth grade. And then I grew like a fourth of an inch after that. But, you know, and that was this whole thing growing up. Oh, you're going to be really tall. You're going to be really tall. And then I wasn't, you know, but if they had just looked at my birth, like they would have known that. And so I just think be curious along with the child, foster that relationship and then enjoy being shocked at how it benefits you, too.

53:50Every time we talk to our daughter's birth mom, my husband and I are both in tears. And it's just she's she's she's wonderful. And she's she's a great mom and she loves us and loves our child, even loves our oldest child. Like, like they when they send gifts to, you know, to our youngest art, they send them to our oldest, too. Like, it's just like they're so thoughtful. They're so kind. And it fills us, too.

54:24That's so well said. So beautiful. All right. Do you have any additional things you want to talk about today? No, I think that we I think that we have covered covered most of them. I just so the book, again, is called Surrounded by Love, an open adoption story. It's available on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. So so check it out. And then I have a new book that will be coming out in the fall called Learning About My Friend's Adoption. So cool. I'm excited for that. So where can our listeners find you?

54:56We talked about your website. Books. Yeah. Our. Yep. OurAdaptionBooks.com. And then you can find me on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at Kids Books by Allison Olson. Awesome. We'll keep that in our show notes, too. Great. Allison, thank you so much for being here today. We have really loved talking to you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you so much, Allison, for being with us for this episode.

55:31We're so grateful to her and for her willingness to share her personal experiences and the experiences she's going through now as an adoptive parent. Yeah, I loved talking to Allison. She has a really great talent for talking about things in an honest, but compassionate and very personable way where, yeah, just amazing perspectives. I loved how she talked about how as an adoption community, we haven't really. Brought about much change or advocacy for helping change narratives or change the way that we talk about adoption, and.

56:10I thought that was really eye opening how she talked about how other communities are able to do this in a way that brings about change and help people respect these communities that are less understood. And it has me thinking, what can we do? Yeah, for sure. I think I mean, particularly, I think you're referencing how she talked about how outside of the adoption community, we're not able to. We haven't done a lot of change there, but within the community, I think we're doing some pretty good work.

56:40I think within the community, it's a strong place. There's, I think, a fair amount of openness, at least from what I see to hearing different ideas and different perspectives. We have an old episode where we talk about adoptees centered language or adoptive centric language. And that's basically the idea that different adoptees are going to have different preferences on the adoption language that you use. And so I think it's really challenging to just have a blanket list of terminology, but instead tailoring that to people.

57:12And that idea, I think a few years ago might have felt really cumbersome to people, but I feel like there's more openness to that now. And I wonder what we could do to help people be more open to respecting adoptees and listening to what they're feeling and what they're wanting for language and for how their story is discussed. And yeah, just so many elements of adoption. Yeah. And I think one of my big takeaways from this episode is just helping me. I mean, obviously, we've had these conversations before, but make sure that I'm more vocal to the community outside of the adoption community, to my friends and relatives and others who aren't just facing adoption or touching it every day of their life

57:58and promoting some of the correct narratives rather than what is seen in Hollywood or what has been portrayed in media in the past. So that advocate. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one thing that's standing out to me. Also, there was part of the conversation around just being positive in some of the ways that we speak about individuals and parts of their experiences. So one, just making sure that anyone who's involved in the adoption constellation, that we're not talking poorly about other members of that connection.

58:36Right. If two friends and family outside that hopefully we can paint the best, the best perception of others and situations and come from a place of empathy and understanding and compassion and care. Rather than criticism and critiquing and like judgment and shame. Yeah. Well, yeah, we talk a lot on the show about how shame is this really negative space where.

59:08It's hard to grow with shame and it's hard to learn and move on and improve. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's really important, just always remembering to work on that and make sure we're talking kindly about people. Yeah, I love this conversation. Again, really grateful to Alison for her willingness to share with us and grateful to each of you, our listeners. We are so grateful that you listen to our episodes and the content that we share.

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60:13Yeah, so we'd love for you to share it, even if it's just a specific episode that you feel like you should share with someone individually. Please do so. Anyway, thank you again to Alison. Thanks to each of you for listening to us and thanks so much for being a listener to the Open Adoption Project.

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