The Complexities of Adoption with Eileen Skahill

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 79. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun. In today's episode, we have an interview with Eileen Skahill. Eileen is an adjunct professor at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs, and she does a lot of research around adoption, but she also works in environmental impact, and she'll share a little bit about that in the interview itself. But we're really excited to have her. She is an adoptee. She's an adoption

0:31researcher, and she's actually currently doing a research project with adoptees that we think some of our listeners might be really interested in. Yes, so in the show notes we have some information about that, but do you want to share a little bit more right now? Sure, yeah. So she is, and she'll tell a little bit about this at the end of the episode, but she is trying to show the good and bad, or the dark and the light in adoption experiences. We know that there's just a mixed bag of feelings and emotions, and she is a photographer by profession as well, and so she

1:05is trying to capture images of adoptees in the places where they find the most peace. And she also does an interview along with that to be able to tell the story with an image, and it sounds like a really awesome project. And so she's looking for adoptees around the United States. She's going to do an initial interview with them, about 30 minutes, and then if they're selected to be part of the study, then she'll fly out to that place, do a lengthy interview, and then do a photo shoot.

1:38Yeah, it sounds really neat, and so we're really excited to share that opportunity with any of our listeners who are adoptees who are interested in that. If you're interested in participating in her study, you can reach out to her through email. Her email address is Skahill@uccs.edu, and that's E-S-K-A-H-I-L-L. So that's also in the show notes if you want to get in contact with her, if you're interested in participating. And we're really excited to jump to her episode and share

2:08some of her thoughts and experiences. So we'll go ahead and jump right now to Sean's discussion with Eileen. Well, we are now on a podcast with Eileen Skahill. Eileen, thank you so much for being with us today. Oh, it's my honor and pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, and just for our listeners, Eileen and I had the chance to talk probably six months ago or so. Maybe it's been longer than that

2:39actually. Maybe longer. And we had a great conversation and I'm glad that we can connect now on the podcast and that people get to hear your experience and also some of the great work that you're doing. So let's go ahead and get started with just an introduction. Help us get to know you a little better. Oh, okay, sure. So I am an adoptee and a closed adoption in 1966. I'm also an adjunct professor of sociology and my areas of emphasis are on adoption and family studies

3:11and courses in environment. I'm looking at climate change and environmental justice through a sociological lens. And I've been in academia for about 13 years. I have two grown daughters who are in their 20s. And I'm also a photographer. So mostly wildlife landscape and social documentary photography. So I think that's yeah, that about does it, I think. Awesome. Well, share with us

3:43a little bit about your personal journey through being an adoptee. Well, let's see, I said before, I was adopted in 1966 after six months in an orphanage. My parents adopted me. And before me, they adopted three other children. All of us are two years apart, and none of us are biologically related. So all adopted from different families.

4:14So it was a little crazy. And, you know, some of my siblings had issues with their substance use and, you know, were in and out of incarceration over their adult, young and early adult lives. So there was a lot of chaos. I was the youngest of four, obviously. So I felt a little bit, you know, off the radar, because there's so much other stuff going on in our household. But yeah, I it was, it's been an interesting journey. I mean, it's a lifelong thing. I would say that I'm

4:50kind of finally maybe coming to, I don't know, not to grips with my adoptive experience at 56, but maybe starting to make sense of it fully, to where I feel a little more whole about it all. But I also went through reunion with both Patrice and my sister, and I was able to I also went through reunion with both paternal and maternal sides of my family, both birth parents and their extended families. That was difficult, complicated.

5:23And I don't have relationships with those folks anymore. But I was in reunion, you know, I think with my, you know, with both of them around about a decade, a little over a decade. So we gave it a yeoman's effort for sure. But yeah, we don't have connection any longer. So yeah, my adoption journey, you know, is partly why I got into focusing on that and my academic work, because

5:54I really wanted to explore whether other people were having similar experiences as I was. And so a lot of my research was really founded on that. And why I chose to focus on certain areas of research. So yeah, I mean, adoption is complicated. And my experience in adoption and reunion was nothing short of complicated. So yes, but at my age now, I feel like I'm finally maybe done with

6:28some of the layers that adoption creates, like I think I've peeled a good number of them off. But you know, you never know, it grows overnight. You don't fertilize it. So yeah, but that's kind of my story. That's probably good. You mind if I ask you a couple follow up questions? Of course, sure. You're the first person that we've interviewed that has said that they were in an orphanage before they were adopted. At least in the United States. Do you what do you know around that

7:00situation? Do you know many of the details of the orphanage experience you had? Not really. I mean, obviously, I was young, but those first six months are really formative months in terms of creating trust with, you know, creating trust period, right. And it was not uncommon for common for so my mother, my birth mother was obviously young, she was, I think, 18. And just out of high school. And she was sent to a home for unwed mothers, the and then delivered in the Mary

7:36Donaldson clinic there in Denver. So it wasn't unusual for babies that weren't placed right away to end up in an orphanage, which was structurally not very far away from where these the home friend would mothers and where they delivered. I did try to that orphanage led building now that housed babies at that time in the 60s is interestingly now a like a sort of a facility

8:11that helps on what mothers raise their kids, right. So teenage mothers, you know, like giving them training and helping them figure out I don't know. I mean, it was a religious institution. At the time, it was through Catholic charities. So I don't I don't think that that building that that program is run through Catholic charities anymore. But it's ironically housed women, you know, in those situations trying to help them cope with having a new baby that they may or may not intend to keep. I don't know the details of that. But yeah, I explored that really quite a long time ago.

8:45I never actually found the building itself. But I did spend some time it was called infants of Prague orphanage. Okay. And yeah, it doesn't exist anymore by that name. Obviously, but yeah, and like, I obviously don't have any memories of those six months. But I do know from having had my own children, how critical those six months are in creating attachment and trust. So I would say I was probably wired. My wiring was very much a part of that experience, I think. Yeah. But yeah, I am.

9:26That's about all I know about it. I wish I had access to more information. I interesting one of my aunts my in my adoptive family. She when she was in high school, that was one of the things she did. She went to the infants of Prague, you know, nursery orphanage and held babies. And so, you know, she had some things to share with me about it before she passed away a number of years ago. They weren't particularly it wasn't really great, a great narrative. Sure. The holding was very brief.

9:58And, you know, they encourage them not to get attached. So, yeah. Yes. So but you know, in terms of memories, obviously, I don't have them that young. Yeah, I was just curious, because we haven't really heard that in the US. And obviously, there's so many pieces to the puzzle of the story. And the the more you can know and process and understand that kind of helps the holistic experience and understand and unpacking it. So thank you for sharing that. That's of course, yeah, sorry,

10:30you don't have more. No, information. You know, I interviewed a young Ukrainian woman for the study that I'm doing now. And she spent her first 15 years in Ukrainian orphanages. And so it was really interesting for me to hear I mean, even though it's not a US orphanage, but just to hear about experience orphanage experiences of and she was 29. She's 29. So and she has some pretty serious disabilities, but their physical disabilities, but just the information she shared about her

11:02experience was Yeah, it was really I don't know, she both loved it and despised the experience. Yeah, you know, but and but she has great memories of that time and Mrs. You know, her pal her pal, or in your finish with her. So yeah, like I hear you when you're saying like, we what wanting to know more is natural, right? Because it's not really something we do so much anymore. Yeah. But um, yeah, no, it was a good question. I wish I had something deeper to share

11:36than that. But yeah. And then my other follow up question to what you shared previously, and again, share as much or as little as you like. But what led up to you reunifying with your birth parents? What did that kind of look like and feel like? And then you said that that kind of that relationship ended and maybe what precipitated some of that, whatever you're sharing? Well, I decided to search when I was 37. I had had both of my children by that time.

12:08I was really prompted kind of by my physician who is a was also a friend. She was helping another patient of hers search and she's like, I lean, you know, you should really search and I was like, Yeah, I should. Um, and I'm not surprised that I did because as a kid growing up, I knew where my parent, my adoptive parents kept my adoption information in their closet. And I would go into the closet when I when they were gone. And, and, and rummage through what was

12:43on the shelf, like I bring in something to I was like, eight, maybe nine or 10 years old. And I had like a ladder I got up on the shelf, I got this box down. I mean, what was in it was not anything identifying, which of course, I'm sure they knew I was looking in there. Because I don't know, I probably left in a mess. Well, I got all that evidence out. But I'm sure I mean, you know, your parent, you know, you know, these things. So they probably knew and therefore didn't leave anything out that I could have really understood. But what was there I took. So, um, and literally,

13:20there wasn't much. And it was just a few notes written on the back of like a checkbook deposit slip. I mean, it was really, I don't know, it was not in great detail nor very thoughtfully written down. But, um, so knowing that about me kind of made me know that at some point, I would do it. I mean, I'm just too curious. I'm just too inquisitive. I'm just too interested in having

13:51answers. So I don't like secrets. Um, partly why I do the work I do. So, yeah, I mean, she, my physician had prompted me to do it. It's not uncommon that women and some men will explore searching after they've had a child. Because that child is the first person they've ever seen that resembles them. Yeah. So it's a very common time for people to search, especially for women. So I think, um, I don't know, everything sort of kind of came together in this confluence of,

14:25I don't know, I just was like, let's do it. My husband at the time who I'm no longer married to was very against it. I also had two little kids. I think at that time, they were like, six and three. And, um, you know, little kid, like, can you, can you create more chaos in your life? Um, when you have a child, but once it came around, I was like, I'm, you know, I was going to see it through,

14:55despite having little kids, despite having a husband at the time who discouraged it, did not want it. Um, and so I did it. And, you know, this is before the internet. I was trying to, you know, and Catholic charities at that time did not have to reveal any identifying information. I mean, that OBCs have changed now in Colorado and they're open now, but, um, original birth certificates. And so at that time in searching, um, I was, I paid for non-identifying information and, um,

15:32the little bit of information I had, um, I was able to find my birth father, um, by using the phone. Well, I hired a confidential intermediary to help me. I did not want to make any of those phone calls myself, but I just sort of deduced the geography. I was initially writing the geography. I was initially wrong with where I thought I was born, but this guy sort of steered me in the direction I needed to go. And, um, of course I lied about why I was calling him.

16:03Like I didn't want him to know. I didn't even know this guy, but I didn't want him to know what I was doing, which is also non-uncommon, right? Like there's a lot of fear around being caught, doing that kind of searching. So I was, wasn't truthful with him about what I was after. Um, but anyway, I had, um, located, uh, the town where both of my birth parents were from and which is in Kenyon city, just like 70 miles south of where I am now. And I went and looked on the microfiche in the, like,

16:35if anybody even knows what that is anymore, but the microfilm and library. Yeah. Like, you know, I'm dating myself, but I, you know, I, I went there and went into the library there and directed me to the basement with the microfilm and I found, um, my birth mother there. She had won a county beauty contest in 1969 or I know six or seven, I don't even remember now before I was born. Um, and, uh, that's how I found her was just looking through who won the county beauty contest in

17:061960. So yeah, I mean, you know, there wasn't social media, there wasn't the internet searching, there wasn't ancestry, there wasn't any of that, but, and I did that in within two weeks. Wow. Yeah. So you can see, you know, if I get something in my, I usually make it happen. So, um, yeah, my mother though, had, um, long story short, the intermediary found a cousin who on my mother's side or whatever, um, she had lied about who my birth father was. So I ended up

17:40meeting him first. Um, I look exactly like my birth, my actual birth father. They all went to high school together. So he knew right away when he saw me that I was not his daughter. Um, and my birth mother had married this man, uh, who not my real birth father, married him and never told him the truth that this child wasn't his. So long story short, I got caught up in, you know, the sort of backstabbing they were still doing with one another.

18:15Um, obviously he was angry about being lied to. And so anyway, he confronted my actual birth father, uh, and told him without my consent that he'd fathered a child. And, and he might anyway, so yes. And those stories are not a new common. Yeah. No. Yeah. They're not. Um, my birth certificate has the name of the father who's not actually my father on it. So the, it's actually documented there as, um, as the wrong father. So, uh, yeah, you know, I,

18:54I went into reunion with my birth mother first. Um, I wasn't ready to find my birth father. Um, or have connection with him. I mean, my mother was finally honest with me about who he was, but I wasn't ready for that. And yeah, it was, um, it was complicated from the get-go, you know, lots of secrets and lies. And, you know, I found out through someone else that my mother had had a son two years after me that she gave up. And it was, it was rough, a lot of dishonesty right

19:24out the gate. And I was really young and, um, eager, you know, wanting to make these connections that maybe I, um, the 56 year old in me now was thinking like, what were you thinking? You know, you should have proceeded with much greater caution and slowed it down. Um, but you know, that's not who I was when I was 37. So, um, anyway, yeah, I don't know if I'm answering this

19:57up in a concise way, but so the reunion itself was, um, um, as most reunions, there's a honeymoon period. Everything's great for six ish months, seven months. Um, and then like I said, my fictitious birth father outed my father who then I was sort of rushed into connecting with him before I was really ready and I did, and I wasn't ready. Um, he also had two other daughters that, um,

20:31yeah, I had that voice in my head that was like, no, don't do this and don't do this now and don't do this at all. But I did it anyway. Um, and the relationships with my half sisters are very complicated. They were young in their twenties. They were not prepared for anything. You know, they felt all of those issues of, um, jealousy and resentment and feeling like they lost their

21:02place in the hierarchy of like now all of a sudden I became the oldest daughter was like, Oh, we're not having this. So, um, those relationships didn't go well. Um, in fact, my half sister took her life earlier last year, um, which I found out on the internet. Nobody let me know that. So, um, yeah, they were really emotionally charged, um, connections

21:32and, and my father arguably didn't birth father did not have a good relationship with his daughters. So, you know, there are so many layers to reunion of which I adoptees have nothing to do with, you know, like that's not my circus and not my monkeys. Um, but I get, you know, by a ride, by my arriving, I get kind of folded into all of that. And so it makes things very complicated. And so the long and short of it was I kind of extricated myself from the reunions

22:08because they just weren't healthy for me. Um, you know, my marriage started dissolving. Um, and it was probably on its way to doing that anyway, but this just sort of made things worse. And, um, I was under a lot of stress. Uh, I'm very much an empath. So I was picking up on was picking up on everyone's energy and, and also feeling like everything was my fault, right? Like I thought I never should have showed up. And I, you know, I caused all these problems

22:39for all these people, not to mention my own children. And it just was so stressful, so stressful. And it was before there was a lot of information about searching and it wasn't, you know, that was 23 years ago. So, you know, I have to be kind to my younger self because I didn't know what I didn't know. And, um, uh, but it got so difficult that I knew I'm like,

23:09I gotta get out of this. Um, and it wasn't easy, right? Cause you know, you're with folks for 10 or so years and there are things about it that, you know, I didn't want to walk away from. Um, but yeah, I mean, it was just another loss. Yeah. So, um, yeah, but, uh, I'm on a kind of on the kind of on the other side of it now, I think. Um, but, um, yeah, it was just, they're complicated.

23:47They're so complicated. And, um, and I didn't have the resources. Well, thank you for sharing. One, I think, um, even just stating a moment ago, you didn't know what you didn't know, um, is true for all of us, but you sharing your experiences helps educate the community. Um, and so someone in a similar situation may think differently or approach it in a situation differently because of the experience you just shared. So thank you for being vulnerable and, and, and opening up

24:21and sharing what is really challenging and hard. And, um, yeah, I mean, you know, that's a long story. It could be, I could go on a whole bunch of directions with it, which aren't really necessary, but you're right. I mean, that's partly why I do the work I do. Like my, my, I didn't, didn't not have this experience in life, um, for, to not be useful in some way. Yeah. Well, we're going to jump into some questions and, um, just from the experience you've had and the

24:51work that you've done, we're going to get to the work you've done toward the end, but I'm cool. Um, we're, and I'm excited to jump into that, but, um, many of the listeners of the podcast are potential adoptive parents. Um, what, what would you hope that they're considering as they're going into adoption potentially for the first time? Well, I'm not an adoption therapist. I have to put that right out there, right? So, so my, um, perspectives come from a few different places, um, run. So first I'm an academic and I make every attempt to teach students and colleagues

25:25about the psychological and sociological implications of adoption. Um, and its impact on the whole of the adoption constellation. So everyone, and I do that through an intersectional lens. So I do that through discussion of adoption through race and gender and class and sexual orientation and gender identity and, and disability. So my job as an academic is to explore adoption through all of those lenses, which is needed now more than ever. Um, and, and then as a researcher who's captured hundreds of stories from folks, um, in the adoption constellation, so not just

25:59adoptees, but, but everyone and extended family members. So, and then I come at this, you know, this place of advice through myself as an adoptee. So there are aspects of my professional life and my lived experience, um, that wouldn't, will inform the things I suggest. And so I guess I would start by saying that adoption is complicated and it's made even more complicated by its depiction in our society and our culture, where it's largely framed by singular perspectives and it's lacking

26:32diverse voices. So, and that singular perspective reverberates in all areas of society and culture. It can be seen through film and media. Um, it also makes its way into institutional entities like social services, um, the criminal justice system, religious institutions, and even education. And, and then the, and the outcome of that is that it is either oversimplified to make it appear as

27:02though this is easy transition for everyone involved, or the adoptee is often maligned or depicted as evil or maladaptive or deeply troubled or completely content and extremely grateful. Right. So we know through decades of research and personal narratives of those in the adoption constellation that neither depiction is that simple or fully true. So, um, I mean, life is not black and white and it's many shades of gray and adoption is certainly no exception to that. So, um, I'll

27:35just have one sort of anecdotal conversation I had with a young, um, South Asian friend of mine who has two biological children. She's I think in around her thirties. Um, and we were having a conversation about adoption. She did not know that I was adopted nor that I taught courses on adoption, but she was telling me like, Oh, my husband and I like, that's so cool. My husband and I want to adopt a child from India, you know? And I said, well, why? And she was really shocked

28:05by the why not so much like in her mind, it seemed like the answer was obvious, right? Which was to give a child, um, an Indian child a better life, which I'd support. Um, but I wanted to press her a little further. So I really wanted to explore more deeply the wise, um, and, and, and the potential for social and cultural issues that an adopted child from another country, like for, in her case from India might face here in the U S so, you know, I was asking her, what are the issues you face as a South Asian American in the United States? And, and I asked her about her to biological

28:41children and, um, you know, what issues she thought they might experience by having a new child in the home. And, um, you know, she just sort of, her eyes were like, you know, getting big as saucers. And it wasn't because she was, um, you know, all of a sudden turned off by the idea. Um, she wasn't thinking that, um, you know, I'm never going to do this, that I'd somehow ruined the experience for her. It was more that she was so much, she hadn't explored about the process or the myriad aspects,

29:15um, of adoption that she just had not considered, or maybe she'd considered, but not actually maybe thought through how you would handle those challenges. Right. So, yeah, I mean, our conversation wasn't long, but my point in bringing this up is that again, adoption is complicated. And, and when you don't have access to information about the process that allows for really critically thinking, um, about, you know, approaching this issue, um, and approaching the idea of adopting, then it often leaves parents in the dark, adopt parents in the dark with singular social cultural

29:48perspectives and narratives that assume an outcome of a potential adoption will either be horrible or, um, perfect, like everything will be great. Right. So it's like rainbows and unicorns or a total nightmare. Right. So, you know, and it's further complicated when we're looking at interracial adoptions and international adoptions, same sex adoptions, adoptions involving disabilities, um, guardianship and, um, foster care, um, adoptions through the system, um, and kinship

30:23care. I mean, you know, we're constructing families in very different ways than we were when I was adopted. Um, you know, in the fifties or sixties, it was an era of, um, the matching era where we tried to, you know, I had a sister with blonde hair and blue eyes. I had two brothers with brown hair and brown eyes. Like we were really trying to match families in order to make them passing. So then nobody had to be honest about what was really happening. We can't do that anymore. Um, or very rarely can we try, you know, execute that. So, so, you know, all of this is to say that

31:00the complexity of adoption, um, is real. And there are elements to it in this intersectional lens, when we're talking about race and all of these other social categories that I mentioned that, you know, we're, we're adopted parents are trying to raise a child in a society where other parents are really a problem. And it's a part of our history for centuries, the othering, um, immigrants to this country for centuries, right? So, um, that is, um, an ideology that we've held for a long time,

31:36but, um, and it's not showing any signs of abating. So all this is to say is that, um, the adoptee and adoptive parents have a lot of hurdles to face and, um, and that hap, those hurdles are there before they even an adoptee even begins exploring, trying to understand their adoptive status. Yeah, for sure. You know, they, they may never even get to that. Um, if they're trying to explain to people why their parents are the same gender or why they're a different race or why they're from

32:10another country or, um, you know, maybe why they have a disability and they have a biological sibling that doesn't, um, sometimes they never even get there. And the research shows that, that, um, adoptive status or foster status and, and how one internalizes that and copes with it is not something young people can explore till much later in life because they're dealing with too many other things. And so then of course, so are the adoptive parents. Trying to help them navigate those issues around, um, social categories and social, um,

32:43you know, what makes them different. And so, you know, I would just say, obviously it's not an easy journey for any member of the constellation. And so being prepared and is open to a deep understanding of the complexities is critical so that you can help both yourself and your child navigate the journey ahead. Um, and so, yeah, the multiple vantage points of exploring adoption is necessary, I think, before you're going to approach it. And thankfully, yes, we live in

33:17a society right now where we have access to a lot of information that can be both good and bad, but that deep dive is where the learning happens. And you know, I think that's the learning that's important. And so, you know, I think that's where the learning happens. And you can stumble upon really unusual sites, unusual blogs, unusual, you know, I mean, a lot of Facebook groups with adoptees, if you can get entry in there, you can read all kinds of stuff and

33:49some of it is really difficult, but it's better to know, it's better to step out of your silo of your home and do as much as you can. Because there's something there to be learned, whether you agree with it or not, or however you internalize it is, is, you know, up to you, but to avoid it is not helpful. So, yeah, I think that's really where the learning happens. So I would never advise someone to adopt or not adopt like, that's not, I, that is a very personal decision, I would

34:24not ask an adoptee or foster child, a young adult that's under the age of 25, about their experience, because they're still oftentimes figuring that out. And I think in my opinion, to ask any earlier than that means you're probably not going to get an answer that's, you know, a very, very, very specific assessment anyway, but still not comfortable with it. And so I think that's the recommendation

34:55or maybe completely, I don't want to use the word honest because it would be honest to the extent that they understand. But definitely not a young person because they still are figuring that out. Yeah, and then I would just say, you know, as an adoptee, I'm not sure my advice would be much different, but I suppose I reframe it in a way that says I wish my adoptive parents were better equipped

35:26for the challenges that adoption brought to a family and especially issues around involuntary childlessness. So if you're someone who's not able to have a biological child, whether it's the husband or the wife, to really take the time to explore how those legitimate emotional and psychological experiences

35:56affect you because we know from research there as well, that if those things aren't dealt with, then it can create issues with attachment with your child that you decide to adopt. And you know, there's a lot of pressure on young couples to have children. I mean, there is, and you know, women, that's like the first thing you're asked after you get married, like, when are you gonna have a baby? And you know, maybe couples can't have children.

36:26It's even almost, you know, research has also shown as even more problematic for men who have issues with infertility because, you know, it's part of a toxic masculinity environment, we all just assume men can have babies, right? So, you know, the placement of blame or, and the shame that maybe comes from not being able to have a child in our culture is real. So, and I think adoptive parents don't get the resources they need to deal with that.

36:57And that's unfair. Yeah. So, you know, yeah, as an adoptee, I would say, you know, please as parents, you know, do the hard work with yourselves. And in particular, like in an open adoption, you know, like understanding the birth parent, first parent experience, because if you're gonna continue to stay in a connected relationship with your children and both families, then you wanna also try to understand

37:29what they're going through with relinquishment. I mean, there's so much work to do. And, you know, there's this very common, well, an article that I use in my courses where it's titled, you know, regular parents just have babies. They don't have to think about all this, right? When you can have a biological child, you just have one. And there's so much pressure on adoptive parents. And they're often so lacking in the tools they need

38:05that it's very difficult, but we are gonna continue to do it. This is a family formation strategy that we will always be a part of our culture. And as more folks face issues of infertility, we'll be designing families in this way. Yeah. I was recently asked what were some of the feelings around adopting our first versus our fourth. And I mean, we were young when we adopted our first.

38:37And I think we were just elated to have a child, right? And we were very ill-prepared for the emotions that we would feel because we do have very open adoptions for our daughter's birth parents who were obviously experiencing a tremendous loss and a very difficult time. And so by the time our fourth child was born, again, very open relationships,

39:08we were much more prepared emotionally to know that, yes, this is a happy and great thing for our immediate family, but it's also based on a heart being broken. And really understanding and feeling what that means, it takes a lot of work and a lot of intentional connection. Yeah, and it's very vulnerable, right? I mean, doing that work and you wanna focus in on just having this new little life in your life

39:40and the emotional bandwidth, right? And just bringing a new child into the home is difficult enough. And then you're like, I need to understand how a relinquishing mother feels. Like I'm already at my threshold. Yeah. So it's asking a lot. It asks a lot of people, asks a lot of people, but it's that doing that work, right? That there's the last point I was just gonna make about advice is there was a researcher,

40:12a sociologist, H. David Kirk, I don't know, maybe some people be familiar with him, but he was like the seminal researcher of adoption in the 1950s. And again, these were simple adoptions in that they were all same race, heterosexual couples. They weren't bound with the complexities that it is now, but part of his theory that came out of his research was this thought of acknowledgement of difference and rejection of difference.

40:44And it still plays out today. The successful families in his research were the ones that weren't performative, that didn't pretend like everything was real, that we were just like every other family and we're gonna pull, and by God, we're gonna pull this off. They weren't successful. They did not have good outcomes. And that was much like the environment I grew up in. I mean, we didn't talk about it, ask anything about it. We didn't even talk about it amongst each other

41:14as four adopted children. We didn't, no conversation. So, but his research showed that if you acknowledge the difference, if you have conversations, don't just say like, oh, you know what? We're just like everyone else. We're just put together a little different. You're like, that's not enough because we know from having, we know kids know things. And when they go to school, they will hear things. So that acknowledgement of difference is super important

41:49because it no longer, it doesn't maintain secrets. No one's lying, can lie about anything. Everybody already knows that something is not totally copacetic based on relationships they have outside of their home. So let's, that would be my thing is just to be honest. In all the ways you can be, as vulnerable as that can make you to be honest and ask a lot of questions, being curious of your kids, like, how does this make you feel?

42:21What are you hearing? Are you hearing? And you have to be very careful about how you couch things, of course. But the question should always come from a place of curiosity. How are you doing? What can I, can I do anything to help you navigate this rather than like, are you hearing things from your friends or people say, you know, you're like, be very careful, but approach questions with curiosity. Because I think if you do that, then kids are much more willing to answer. Yeah. And they feel safer. Like, I think they feel safer when you just ask

42:53out of curiosity rather than being very pointed in questions, but yeah, I think I just, my point is I think that research from the 1950s is still applicable today. That we really acknowledge that the way our family is assembled is different than other people's. And that helps them prepare them for when they do go to school and they do hear things. You know, once they're outside of that bubble of an into school, their whole lives change.

43:24Yep. And yeah, just immensely. So yeah, that I think his research is just important cause it still matters today. Yeah. Wonderful advice. And I love that you're referencing that in the many interviews that we've had with people, the more truth that people know and understand and can digest, the better it is for them. And when there's lies and secrets and deceit, it always comes out and it's never good.

43:57No, and I think, I mean, I can say from my own experience, but I think it's true somewhat across the board is kids will take that on. Yeah. And parents, if they adopt a parent or even, you know, however you're connected in an open adoption, if no one else is taking that on, they will. Yeah. They'll be like, what did I do? You know, is this my fault? There's all this friction or, you know, like, I mean, that's a natural thing for kids to do if it's not redirected.

44:27And that's pretty scary. We're asking a lot of them. This. Well, thank you so much. I think that was some great, great advice. I wish that I could have talked to you 15 years ago. I wouldn't know nothing 15 years ago. Right. So don't worry about it. It's a process. I think I'm gonna combine these next two because I wanna be able to talk about your research and what you're doing and have enough time left.

44:58So. Yeah, for sure. So as we've talked, you've mentioned from your personal experience, from your interactions with others that obviously that there are challenges and struggles around adoption. What are some of the things that you hope that people are considering or should be thinking about when it comes to some of those struggles or challenges that the adoption community faces? Well, I think, I mean, I've hit on a lot of those so far. Like, I mean, one of the questions you did ask

45:29was about what I thought adoption education should look like. Yeah. And I pretty much have kind of covered that in the first question, but I would just say that the things that are really important to consider are especially if you have a child that's of another race than you are, that if it's a child of color that you are doing everything you can to explore resources

46:00about what it's like to grow, especially if you're a person who is white and what it's like for a kid of color to grow up in America because you won't, you will not have had that experience with white skin. And so doing everything you can to learn about the experiences of kids of color in our country coupled with understanding about adoption or bringing a child in from, you know,

46:30like I said before, a kid may never get to understanding or get to questions about their adoptive status if they can't get past issues of race or gender, gender identity, you know, as your child gets older and maybe has gender fluid or binary or, you know, or is not heterosexual, maybe like you might, you and your partner might be.

47:00I mean, there are so many things to learn about raising a child in our country today. They have stresses that go well and above the ones we had growing up. Wasn't that we didn't, but they have many more. And so understanding, right, that you're adding layer on top of layer on top of layer as you go into bringing a child into your family that's not biological. And so again, doing that deep dive into getting

47:33as much information as you can, talking to as many people as you can, being willing to explore different avenues on the internet or wherever you're searching for information, understanding that these adoptions now are so multi-layered and more complex than ever before. So yeah, that is super important. And those resources are out there, you know,

48:03like they might not have been too terrific 10 or 15 years ago, but they are now. And it's important to be willing to understand other people's experiences. Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's one of the big reasons we've continued to do the podcast to share the vast, you know, a variety of experiences that people have and the more that we can kind of pick and pull from each person's story and understand

48:35and maybe extrapolate a little bit of what that might mean is in my role as an adoptive parent or in my role as a birth parent or as an adoptee, like just understanding other people's experiences helps so much. Yeah, it's about approaching learning with empathy and compassion and understanding and a willingness to step outside of, I don't know, our often very siloed world of information.

49:07Yeah. Expanding your information diet is really, really important. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, can't be in an echo chamber where you're just hearing the same things. It has to be vast. Well, and especially with adoption being framed as this win-win thing. Like it is founded, like you said earlier, it is founded on loss and trauma. Yeah. It is. A woman generally does not wanna relinquish a child, but for all the various reasons that she does and will,

49:39there is still loss and trauma that is still undergirds the whole experience. And so to look past that, right, as part of that acknowledgement of difference, to look past that is not gonna serve people very well. Yeah. And so it requires a very open heart, very open heart, which I think everyone has already, right? Because you're willing to get on this adoption super highway, you're entering it, and you wouldn't do it without an open heart,

50:09but it's not for the faint of heart. And it's not for, like you said, folks that are very siloed in their world of information. Yeah. Well, let's shift gears a little bit. You mentioned that you're an adjunct professor right now that you're doing a lot of research or that you've done research regarding adoption. I'd love for you to tell us a little bit about that, maybe what some of your goals are. Just jump in and share it with us a little bit about what you're doing research-wise.

50:39So, yeah, I have been doing research on adoption for, I don't know, I guess, a better part of 15 years around there. And I've done a lot of studies on all members of the adoption constellation. So birth fathers went accessible and birth mothers and adoptive parents and adoptees, all kinds of adoptees, late learners, pretty much all of them. And they were intense, you know,

51:09and the research was great. It served its purpose. It was wonderful to be able to capture people's stories and put it out there in the world and to create more understanding if that happened. Hopefully it did. But this study that I'm looking at now is really about trying to balance the light with the dark. And it's really important to me at this point in my career that I do the research that meters out both

51:39because, like I said earlier, adoption narratives can be put into one pile of horrible experiences and one pile of everything's great, which is just not life. So that was why the study was important was because I wanted to talk about the difficulties, but I also wanted to end conversations that I'm having with adoptees and folks that were guardianship or kinship care through the foster care system. About their experiences,

52:09but also about the modalities they employed to heal, to become more whole, to deal with the layers of their experiences in, I don't know, in a more joyful way. So the study called Nurtured by Nature, Adopting and Foster Care Experiences and Healing Power of Nature is about that exploration. It's about asking folks about their experiences, their struggles, but also their strengths and their hope

52:42and where that hope comes from. And like I said earlier on, my disciplines are to teach adoption, family studies and environment. And as a photographer, and with most of my subjects being the natural world, I wanted to dovetail these two things and try to create something that was beautiful, that also has an element, a creative element. So the participants have the option of either being just interviewed for the study

53:13about their experiences and their love of the natural world and other modalities that they've employed to help them heal. So it's not just nature, but it's other modalities as well, which often lands people in a space of being very creative or very spiritual or religious or whatever it is that helps them heal and be whole. So yeah, so the photographic element is that my plan is to photograph everyone in the study, which means I'll be in different parts of the country to do that.

53:43Very fun. Yeah, I mean, I didn't really wanna do that originally because it sort of undermines the whole environmental climate piece. I mean, I don't wanna politicize this of being about climate change, but I do care about my carbon footprint. And I was like, I'm gonna fly around all these places and it just seems like this undermines the whole thing. But then I was like, well, I am a photographer and how can I not take these pictures? So I'm gonna have to be very strategic about how I do it so that I do am mindful of my carbon budget.

54:13But yeah, so the study has a component of a couple hour interview and then the interview and the photographic piece of it. And it would be in spaces and nature that all these participants love. So, I mean, being in front of the cameras are pretty vulnerable thing, but when you're in a place where you feel safe and comfortable, it's less threatening. And it was also important to me to have, besides the element of creativity was to have,

54:47was knowing that the narrative for so many folks, adoptees and foster and guardianship, kinship care is a feeling of never having been seen. And so I thought, well, how else do you really see someone than to have their face in a photograph in a place that they love? So I wanted people, I want people to feel seen and be seen. It is an option, it is not a requirement. Obviously I can't give anonymity if a person is in an image.

55:18Of course you can create an image where a person's face isn't in there, but nevertheless, it's an option if someone doesn't wanna do that part, but just wants to share a narrative, then that's totally, totally possible as well. And my goals with the study are really, like I said, to continue to be someone who captures other people's stories and has them leaving the interview and the photography as having been seen and felt seen.

55:49And then of course, my hope is that people who maybe have gotten away from their relationship to the natural world get reconnected. And I've had that happen already with a few interviews where people email me later and say, I hadn't realized how much I really loved and needed to be in natural spaces until we had that conversation. And we know as we get older and we get busier and work,

56:19and we do disconnect from the natural world as opposed to when we were children. So if I can reconnect people with nature, reestablish relationships or enhance relationships that are already there, that's a huge bonus because right now we need, the earth needs our attention. Yeah. And so if I can reconnect with people and so if I can create a little world of people

56:49focusing back on the natural world or falling in love with it deeper, then that would be awesome. I love that. So say an adoptee is listening right now, if they wanna learn more about your study or how they potentially can participate, where do we direct them? How can they- Yeah, just if you can put my email, my university email address in your show notes or whatever. Sure, sure. Just reach out to me through email. And then the first step is just to have a short like 30 minute either phone conversation

57:20or Zoom conversation so I can answer some questions about the study if they have any. And then from there we'd schedule a longer format interview and talk about where they are and how they would wanna curate an image. And they have 100% creative license to photograph wherever they wanna be. I mean, I don't know people's spaces that they love. So I'll just go where I'm told and experience with them the places that they love.

57:51So yeah, so email address is the best way to go. We'll be sure to put that in the show notes for today and we'll include it in our social media posts as well. Anything else that you would wanna share about that study or that you'd want people to know there? No, just that it's... Like I know this demographic is often asked, well, not often enough, but frequently asked by academics to share their story.

58:24And sometimes they don't have a whole lot of information or control about where that information goes, their information goes, their stories go. So I would just want to alleviate any fears people might have that this study is gonna spin off in some negative way. It's really about, again, just having folks feeling safe to share their story, knowing that when they do with me, that it's safe.

58:55And I take very, I'm very careful with how I capture people's stories. I'm very, there's a lot of humility there. I know what people are offering up and the vulnerability that that is, and sometimes feels a little dangerous. So no, just knowing that the end goal of this work is hopefully to get it published. I'm not sure exactly how or what that's gonna look like, but no, the intentions are pure. And no, and because I care a lot,

59:29and I have been given the gift of being able to do this work, and I'm careful about how I do it. So no, I just want people to know it's a safe place. And that I deeply, truly care about everybody and their experience, because we are not a monolith. There are so many stories and they all need to be told. And I want to do that. That's wonderful, and what a wonderful pursuit

60:00and purpose in your personal life. I love that. It's good for me right now too. And it will be sort of folded in with my trip to Italy and sharing my own story. Yeah, the Italy trip was kind of really the, probably the launch point for this. I just didn't really realize it right away, but yeah. No, and you know what, it's just, it's light and dark and beauty and it's what the world is really made of.

60:31It's not black and white. It is so not. It's so gray and there's so much tragedy and there's also so much joy. And I think all of us, everyone in the Adoption constellation needs to feel more joy. Yeah. We just do, so. I love that. Well, our time has passed really quickly. Yeah, I know, I'm so sorry if I. No, it's okay. Is there anything else that you want to talk about before we wrap up? No, no, that was great.

61:02Thank you so much for being on the show. Oh gosh, it's totally my pleasure and my honor and my privilege. So thanks for asking. Thank you. Thank you so much to Eileen for sharing all of these amazing thoughts with us. And for all of your research in the Adoption community, we really appreciate that and are so grateful every time we hear about research happening in the academic world that's focused on adoptees.

61:34So really enjoyed listening to this episode. What were some of your takeaways, Sean? I, so many, but one that's coming to mind is around openness and she shared how she was in a closed adoption for 37 years and then quickly reunified and jumped into this relationship that seemed a little tumultuous. And just for me, it highlighted the importance

62:04for us in our specific situation that having those relationships, connections early on from the beginning even help create this foundation of a relationship throughout our kids' lives. And- Having the truth out in the open from the beginning. Yeah, yeah, that there's some benefits from that. And obviously every situation is different, but for me, it's just highlighting the importance of caring for those relationships, nourishing them

62:34and making sure that they continue to grow over time. Yeah, with the goal of keeping the adoptees' best interests always top of mind. Yeah, that's your top goal. Yeah, I like that. I thought it was really interesting when she talked about how families in older adoptions, the agencies were really looking at blending and keeping the family looking similar, right? Like that sameness. And I think it's interesting how it was kind of this way of tucking an adoption back so that people didn't know,

63:06like, you know, just kind of pushing down discussions about potential trauma and challenges and just trying to kind of squash that. And I feel like even if you do look similar to the family that you're with and there's not that biological connection, there's such an important need to have these open dialogues and not ignore those traumas. I'm really grateful that there has been a shift in that over time. But yeah, I thought that was an interesting thought.

63:37And when she talked about how in adoption, there's such a need for having an open heart, I think is what she said, to not be closed off to learning new ideas and like seeing things differently, like being open to being taught new things, knowing that you don't know everything already about adoption. I thought that was really important to talk about. It made me think of the book, Mindset by Carol Dweck. It's really good. It talks about growth mindset

64:07and being open to learning more, right? Yeah, I thought that was incredible and basically ties into why we're here doing the podcast, honestly, because there's so much more for us to learn and hopefully it's benefiting others too. Yeah, there's also, I can't remember who the author of this book is, but there's also another book called Start With Why. And that thought came to my mind a lot when she was talking about her conversation with her friend who wanted to adopt a baby from India. We need to really examine the why

64:39behind what we're doing in adoption. And she talked, I really appreciated the portion of her conversation with me where she talked about couples who are struggling with her infertility, that you really need to take care of some of those emotions. Obviously you can't resolve them or solve them, but- But you need to address these issues so that you don't end up projecting those traumas onto others. That's right, especially your child. Yeah, completely unfair. That's an adoptive child. Because, I mean, we've said this in episodes way in the past,

65:11but adoption does not cure infertility. It cures childlessness, but it does not get rid of any of the maybe, well, what I would call baggage, that some of the feelings that I've had from infertility. It doesn't get rid of that. Yeah, well, and it's different, right? I feel really strongly that I love my kids just as much, if not more, than I would if they were my biological children.

65:42But it's also a different, like they have different needs, right? And they're not going to grow up and have the same passions that I have most likely. And they're not going to look like my parents. Or you know what I mean? There's all these different factors and you need to be thinking about that and be okay with it if you're considering adopting because you're adopting someone who's not gonna share all of these similarities with you. And hopefully you can work through that beforehand

66:12and not be projecting and expecting things that aren't realistic. Yeah, I love my conversation with Eileen. I'm so glad that we got to chat. Yeah, yeah, she was so fun to listen to as we were editing this episode. Again, if you are an adoptee and you're interested in participating in Eileen's current research, you can reach out to her at eskahill.uccs.edu. Again, that's E-S-K-A-H-I-L-L. And that's gonna be in the show notes.

66:43Again, thanks so much to Eileen. We're so grateful for our conversation with her. Yeah, and thanks for being here with us and learning and growing with us every episode. Help us to grow the strong And Most OF YOU You

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