The Power of Connection with Patrick Hawes

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 77. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun. In this episode, we interview Patrick Hawes, who is an adoptee. He shares his story about being adopted as an infant into a multicultural family and then reconnecting with his birth mother after the passing of both of his adoptive parents. Yeah, I really enjoyed listening to this episode. So Shaun does this interview and so I was just listening to it as we were

0:31getting it ready to post and it's an incredible story. Patrick is amazing. I really appreciate his insights and his willingness to talk about some challenging things. Yeah, I think I mentioned the episode, but I really appreciate the fact that we can hear so many different stories from all different sides of adoption. And as we hear and listen and kind of process through those, that we really paint this holistic picture of what the adoption experience is as a whole.

1:06And as an adoption community, we can learn from that and learn from the good things, learn from the mistakes. And I think there's a lot of great things that we can learn from Patrick. I agree. So we'll jump to that interview. Thanks for being here. All right. Well, we are now on a podcast with Patrick Ha. Patrick, thank you so much for being with us. My pleasure. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Well, we are really looking

1:41forward to our conversation today, but before we jump into lots of questions and hearing your story, we'd love to get to know you a little bit better. So help us get to know Patrick. So I currently, well, I was in the Navy for 26 years. I retired in 2019. Grew up in Baltimore, Maryland, or near that area. And so now I live just south of York, Pennsylvania. I still work for the federal government. I can't get away from that.

2:13That's like, it's kind of one of those things where once they have you there, they just, they keep pulling you back in. Like I said, I retired in 2019 and I wasn't really looking towards working back for the federal government again, but opportunities and doors opened. And so I enjoy being retired from active duty military. I miss it to a certain degree, but I love it. I'm married. My wife works at a school, an elementary school. I have a 15 year old son,

2:49who's, who is, you know, he's the, he is so, I'm so, we're both, my wife and I are very proud of him. He's doing amazing things. And so, yeah, we're, we're just excited. You know, we, we, we love our life and happy to where, where things are and all that stuff. So yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Very, very simple. Awesome. No, that's awesome. Great. Well, let's jump in and you can share, we'd love to hear your experience as an adoptee, maybe share

3:23some of your story with us and then we'll pick apart some of your experience so that we can all learn. Yeah. So I was adopted at six weeks old. I was, it's August of 1970 and I was born actually in Asheville, North Carolina. And as I said, I was adopted at six weeks old. My adopted mom was Japanese and my adopted dad was American. So I had a unique little, you know, contrast there.

3:58Yeah. Multicultural family. Yeah. Yeah. And they actually met when my adopted dad was stationed in the air force during, just after world war II. So my, when they adopted me, my adopted father was 47 because he was born in 1922 and my adopted mom was 42. She was born in 1928. So they were older

4:28when they adopted me and had no other kids. So I was an only child and my adopted dad, he passed away in August of 1974. Actually about three and a half weeks after my fourth birthday, he passed away. He had cancer. And so that really was, you know, as I've looked back on it, as I've gotten older, that was really the point in my life where I didn't know it at the time,

5:06I didn't know it at the time, but where I started to develop this sense of who's the next person that's going to leave me, you know, and, and being feeling this feeling of being alone, you know, of loneliness. And so my adopted mom, you know, again, you know, she couldn't hide the fact that I was not hers. You know, I don't look any, I don't look Japanese at all. She first told me that I was adopted probably between, I was about five, maybe five

5:41or six. Don't remember exactly, but I was still pretty young. And, you know, she, to my, you know, and she had repeated this over the years as I got older, anytime I asked her, but she told me that my adopt, my biological mother was very young when she had me, couldn't afford to take care of me. And this was the thing that really stung was she told me that my biological mom didn't really want

6:11me. And so that created, and again, I've looked back, you know, thinking back on all those comments and those things. It's a, that was, that was the point where I was like, well, okay, why did my, why did my biological mom not want me? What, what was wrong with me? You know, all those kinds of things. And so, but with my adopted mom, there was always this distance between the two of us

6:41because I didn't, I did not speak Japanese and you know, her English was good, but it was broken English. And so there was always this separation between the two of us. We never really, like there were a lot of things about her I didn't know until after she passed away, because she, she passed away in 2004. And, and it wasn't really until then that I started

7:11even thinking about searching for my biological family. And most of that was out of respect for her, my adopted mom, because I knew that if I ever even mentioned wanting to search or look for my biological mom, my adopted mom would never have understood that. She never would have understood it. I can say with pretty much certainty that she never would have supported it. It would have

7:44devastated her. It's, it's, that's pretty much the truth. She would have been devastated. And so out of respect for her, I didn't search. And, but then after she died, there was this freedom within me to go and start, you know, I'm like, you know, I want to know, I want to get some answers. I want to find out like, you know, where did I come from? You know, who do I look like? You know, all of

8:14these things that, you know, a lot of the adoptees, a lot of us adoptees want to know, you know. How old were you at that point? I was 34 when she passed away. And so I, you know, and again, people ask me, you know, they're like, you never thought about searching? I wouldn't say I never thought about it, but again, like I said earlier, it always was something that I just put aside because again, my adopted mom, she just would

8:44have never have understood. And so I, at 34, like I said, I reached out, you know, as I said, I was born in North Carolina. So I wanted to try to get somewhere. I wanted to try to start searching. And so I, you know, I said, well, maybe I can get my original birth certificate. And I called the state of North Carolina and the Department of Records, Vital Records, and I said, well, I want to get my original birth certificate. And they're, you know, they said, well, we can mail you this

9:16certificate. It has, you know, this name, and it was, you know, my name, but I said, no, I, I, I'm adopted. So there's an original birth certificate. Oh, you're adopted. Well, you can't have that. I said, come again. I said, they said, well, no, there's a, you know, we have a law that says that once you go to an adoption, those original birth certificates, they're sealed. And the only way that you can get them opened is through a court order. And she, I think that the

9:50words were from her were like, good luck with that or something along those lines. Really encouraging. Yeah, exactly. So I was like, well, that was a door slammed in my face. Now they did say, they said, well, you can get what we call non-identifying information. And I was like, well, what is that? And they said, well, it just basically lays out, you know, just some basic information, this and this and this. And so I said, okay, I'll do that. So I think about maybe, I don't know, because I was, I was actually in Hawaii. I was stationed in Hawaii at this time,

10:23when, when my adopted mom passed away and I started doing this search and this and that. Well, the non-identifying information was really just, wasn't much help. Although my wife was like, well, you know, you could take this to a private investigator and they could probably find out some information. And I was like, yeah, but that would be really expensive. I'm not really thinking about doing that. So it kind of just sat on the back burner. You know, I knew it was there. And I,

10:54then I think it was around 2000, maybe 2009, 2008, 2009, you know, the adoption, like adoption search engines and adoption websites were starting to pop up where you could type in some basic information and get, you know, and try and see what was out there. So I did that. I think I put in my date of birth, the county that I was born in and maybe some other information.

11:29And I actually, believe it or not, I actually, within like a couple of days, I got my birth mother's name. Wow. But again, I was, you know, again, being in the military and moving every few years, it was, it was hard to, you know, to do a search and get serious about it. So fast forward to 2015, and I was stationed in Norfolk, Virginia. So I was like, well, at that point, I'm 45, excuse

12:06me. And I said, well, I'm, you know, North Carolina is right there. And if nothing else, I've got to try this. I've got to start trying to search and get serious about this. Because I, the other thing that had really pushed this, you know, kind of gave me a catalyst or whatever you want to call it, was my wife and my wife and I, my wife gave birth to our son in 2008. And when I held him for the

12:36first time, I looked at my wife and I said, do you realize that this is the first time that I am staring at someone face to face that I share blood with? It's the first time. And I said to her at that point, I said, I have got to find my birth family. I've got to find my birth mom. I have to, because, you know, this is, here's my, this is the first time I'm looking at someone that I share

13:06blood with. But again, like I said, everything just kind of was with being in the military and you're moving and it was tough. So 2015, I started seeing all of these, like I was reading a couple articles, I'd see it on Facebook that people were finding their birth family through Facebook. And I was like, wow, I wonder, I wonder. So I found a website or found a Facebook group called, I think it was adult adoptees born in North Carolina or something like that. And it was the

13:38and it was the same thing it was as previous, it was put in your date of birth, the county that you were born in. And then, you know, we'll see. So I did that. I think it was 15 minutes later, I get a Facebook message with my birth mom's name. 15 minutes? Yeah, it was the same name that I had from 2008. It was the same name. So I'm like, well, this has to be, this has to be her.

14:11And what I found out later was that I was the only baby boy that was born on that date in Asheville that did not get, you know, was not that I was sent to a foster home. You know, so that was just process of elimination that they did when the search angels found it. But so I was like, okay, wow, well then maybe a half an hour after that, I got another Facebook message from this

14:45search angel, I should say, that had a picture of my birth mom from a wedding announcement in 1972. And so I looked at that photo and I'm like, well, I can see some resemblances here. This is, this could, you know, I could be on to something here. Well, then maybe an hour after that, I got another Facebook message with a link to my maternal aunt's Facebook page. And her Facebook

15:18page was really open in the sense that she had a lot of information there. She also had an email address that was in her bio. So that night, I put together like a three or four sentence email. I started off by saying something like, you know, I'm not a scam artist. I'm not like trying to get for money or anything like that. You know, I have reason to believe that your sister, you know,

15:51my birth mom's name is Judy. I believe that, you know, your sister Judy is my birth mother. I was adopted. You know, I went through the whole deal of kind of trying to be brief. And I must've read that email probably, I don't know, 30 times. And I showed it to my wife and she's like, oh, sounds good to me. And I said to her, I said, well, you understand that once I press send, there's no turning back. We're on this ride and wherever it goes, it goes. And she goes,

16:25okay, I support you 100%. Let's go. And so I sent it and it was probably about maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes. You know, she sent me an email back and it was kind of something like, you know, it, you know, she says, it's very possible that, you know, you're her son. I don't remember, I'm her younger sister, but I do remember her going away for a while when I was young. And so it's possible, let me do some research. I have to, you know, talk to some family friends and I'll

17:00get back to you. And it was probably a few days later, maybe five, six days later, she called me and she gave me the whole rundown. She said that, you know, you know, my mom got pregnant at early age, you know, and her parents, she said, my parents were very strict Southern, they were Southern Baptist, you know, this is not, you know, having a child this way is not right,

17:30that are not at all. They sent my mom to a home for unwed mothers in Asheville. And that's where she had me. And so, you know, she found out a couple other pieces of information that she relayed to me. And then she said, you know, you bear a very striking resemblance to Judy's daughter, Tracy. And I said, Wow, I said, so I have a sister. And so I, you know, she said, but let me

18:05reach out to Tracy and tell her this first. And I respected all of that because I didn't want to cause any problems. I didn't want to, you know, create any waves or anything. So it was probably a couple days later that I got a Facebook message from Tracy and she was like, you know, this is all surprising. I didn't know anything about this. You know, my mom never told me. And so we started talking through Facebook Messenger. And then probably like a week later, we had our first phone call. I think we were on the phone for about three hours. Just kind of like going through our

18:41lives and just kind of talking about, you know, what happened, you know, just different things. And then Father's Day weekend of 2015, this is, and I don't want to turn anything religious, but this is, you know, where I believe that the good Lord had a hand in all of this. Father's Day weekend, 2015, I had a work trip to Spartanburg, South Carolina, which is where my maternal aunt lives in Spartanburg, South Carolina. And so I met my

19:17maternal aunt and her husband. They were wonderful people. They actually had me over to a Father's Day brunch at their house that day. And I met all this family, you know, kind of extended family kind of thing. Everybody was so welcoming. They opened their arms to me and just, you know, so nice to meet you. Thank you. And my aunt kept telling me, I'm so glad you didn't give up. I'm so glad you

19:48did not stop searching because we're grateful that you're here and that we found you and you found us. So it made me feel like I had this sense of belonging. So just to talk about my birth mom, and I met my sister during that same weekend. We just, you know, it's us meeting and talking. It was like those 40 plus years didn't happen. We just, we connected and we're very close.

20:23Even to this day, we're very close. And then the last piece of this was meeting my mom. Unfortunately, what I found out when I, you know, started talking to my aunt was that my birth mom had a massive stroke probably around 2000. I think it was around 2010, 2011, somewhere in there, maybe even later, and is in a nursing home. And so they were worried about telling her

20:55about me for a while because they didn't know how she would take it and those kinds of things. Well, I think it was right after Mother's Day of 2016. My sister was like, okay, it's time, you know, we need to set up a time for you to come down here and meet mom. I was like, okay, you know, finally, after 45 years, I'm ready. So I went to the nursing home. My wife and my son came with me

21:30on the show. My mom's in a nursing home in North Carolina. So we drove down to North Carolina from Virginia, and my wife and son did not come to the nursing home because, again, I wasn't really sure how everything was going to go. So I kind of just, you know, say, okay, you guys go shopping or do whatever. And then, you know, my sister and her husband, we went to the nursing home. And my sister went in first and started talking to my mom and said, you know, mom, do you remember back in

22:001970, you know, you gave up a child and this and this and this? And initially, my mom said no. She was, you know, she said no, I, you know, no. And then finally, my sister was like, mom, it's, I know, it's okay. It's okay. I know. And, you know, you had a son, and his name is Patrick, and he's been looking for you. And he's here. He's out in the country. He's been looking for you. And he's here. He's out in the hallway. He wants to meet you. And so finally, she said, my mom

22:34just kind of, you know, let out this really huge sigh and just kind of went, yes, I did. And so my sister came out, she's like, come on in. And I walked in. And I saw my mom. And it was, yeah, it was really, really emotional. As you can tell, this is really emotional. And yeah. And so I, you know, I didn't really know what to say initially, but my mom stepped in and she just

23:07said, she kept saying, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. And she said, I didn't have a choice. And I said, mom, you don't need to apologize for anything. Everything happened for a reason. God had a plan for all of this. It's okay. I'm here now. And everything's okay. And that just kind of set everything, you know, everything was good. And so we visited for, I don't know, a couple more hours. We were there. And then, you know, as I was leaving, you know, I said, you know, I'm going to see you

23:39soon. And then she, she stopped me and she said, you know, she said, Patrick, and I turned around and I turned around and I said, yeah, what is it, mom? And she said, she has a hard time talking because of the stroke, but she just said, grandson. And I said, oh, you want to meet your grandson? I said, yeah. She said, yeah. I said, okay, we're going to arrange that. So it was probably another two months later, we arranged another time to come down there. And, you know, my wife and my son met

24:10my mom and, you know, she, my mom keeps my son's school pictures up in her room. She puts them up on her, on her board that she has up in her room. And so then fast forward to August of 2016, it was on my birthday and I wasn't expecting anything, you know, from her. But then about three, 34 o'clock in the afternoon, my phone rang and it was, it was my mom. And I had been talking

24:40to her probably every day, every other day, I was, I was calling her and you know, talk for five minutes, you know, whatever. And, you know, she called and I answered the phone. I said, hello. And she said, oh, she didn't say, she didn't say how she said, happy birthday, Patrick. And and I almost started bawling because it was something that I had been waiting for, for 45 years, you know, to hear my mom say happy birthday. So that was, that was really like, you know,

25:16everything like kind of put into this old end of this journey. And so yeah, so I, you know, my mom, I talked to my mom probably every other day or so she's still in a nursing home, you know, and her husband that she, she has now he's there every day. And when I say every day, I mean, every day, seven days a week, and he's there from the time that they open at around eight o'clock until the

25:46time that they come in to give my mom medication to help her sleep, which is usually around six, six 30. He doesn't go anywhere else. He's right there by her bedside. And he's there. Yeah, he's, I mean, he's one of a kind. He truly is one of a kind. And, you know, she is my mom, what I've learned from from her is she's a fighter. She is a, I mean, she's got this fighting spirit, she's not going to give up. And I think she's passed that on to me, because I'm that kind of way. I just

26:17don't give up. And I keep going and keep, you know, trying and, and whatnot. So my I said, I still talk to my sister. And we have a great relationship. And I've met all of her kids and and Dylan's met her kids. And, you know, so it's been a really good, healthy reunion hasn't been without its, you know, challenges times, but it's been a very healthy reunion. So that that's really the journey it was it was 45 years in the making. But, you know, as I said, God had his God had his plan and

26:49working it out and doing it in his timing. Wow, thank you so much for sharing that. And Oh, I have a lot of questions. Just out of curiosity, any any connection with birth father or biological father yet or? Um, no, you know, I and that wasn't really part of it. I just, you know, I never really got into that part of it. So now, now. Yeah. All right. Well, I have a lot of questions for you. Let's go back. Yeah. To maybe earlier in life.

27:27What do you wish that your adoptive family had done differently in retrospect? I wish well, again, like I said, my with my adopted dad, you know, passing, you know, he was he was already gone by the time I was old enough to start to know about being adopted. But, you know, with my with my adopted mom, I wish that she would have number one, I wish she would have been a little bit more honest with me because of her

27:57and I found this out after she passed away, going through papers and things like that, that she hit a hit hit some details from me as I was growing up, which that was hurtful. You know, that was that was painful and caused some some issues that I had to, you know, go through some spent spent a couple years in counseling and therapy to try to work through all of that because, you know, by that point, my my adoptive family was going through a lot of trouble. By that point, my adopted mom had already passed away. So I couldn't confront her or talk to her

28:33about these issues or these problems or these things. So how do you handle that? But yeah, I wish that she would have been honest. I wish she would have, you know, asked some questions to me of like, you know, do you want to know more information about your birth family? Do you want to do you have do you have any desire to want to search? Just things like that. I wish they I wish she had done that because I, you know, and some of that was just, I think she was my adopted

29:05mom, especially after my adopted father passed away. She changed a lot. And I think she became much more protective. She was extremely protective. Oh, yeah, absolutely. She was extremely protective of me. And, you know, that term smothering. And yeah, that was that was it. She just she was very, very protective of me. And and so yeah, so I just wish that she would have done that. Yeah.

29:36So a little bit more transparency, obviously, age appropriate. It's Yeah. But making sure that we share as much information as we can. And then also, I like how you verbalize this, but just kind of checking in with you and kind of gauging the temperature, like, how are you feeling about this? What questions do you have? And just making sure that we have that door open for some open dialogue. Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more. It's vital. It's so important. And because

30:11regardless of and I tell people this all the time, you know, I I had a good childhood as far as like I never, you know, I grew up in a in a, you know, good home. You know, I never really was, you know, not no abuse or anything like that. You know, it was the 70s. So I mean, you know, you can you figure all of that out my childhood and that kind of deal. But you know, my childhood was good. As far as like, you know, she took care of me. I believe that my

30:45adoptive mom loved me. I do believe that. That being said, there were things that I was really curious about, but I never felt that there was any kind of openness or freedom to ask. So yeah. Yeah. And I mean, and that's going to build some walls and you're trying to manage how she feels about the situation rather than potentially her managing how you feel about

31:16the situation, which yeah, that's challenging as a child for sure. Yeah. Yeah. You know, maybe the listener to this podcast is considering adoption or as an adoptive parent already. What type of advice or, or counsel would you give them to help help them avoid some of the mistakes or things that you wish had been done differently? Wow, that's a great question. Because I do, you know, I've

31:46talked to a couple, you know, several adoptive parents in, you know, over the over the years, and especially after I found my birth family and everything else, the, just a couple of things that I would say, one is, like I said earlier, give them space to have those emotions, give them space to feel, you know, well, why didn't my like, like I was, why didn't my biological mother or parents want me? What, what happened to me? What was something? Because I think that's a really

32:20natural tendency, especially as you're, as the kids are getting older, teenage years, they're, they're starting to try and figure out themselves. And when you have this, this, you know, you were adopted, so you have these questions about where did I come from? You know, what, all of these things, you know, where was I born? All of these things that they have questions about. If you have those answers, talk to them. But again, like you said earlier, it has to be age

32:51appropriate. You know, certainly, as they're getting into their older teen years, yeah, if they're, if they're wanting to know, and even if they're not asking, they may be scared to ask, they may be afraid, you know, I don't, like me, I don't want to hurt my, in my case, I don't want to hurt my adopted mom's feelings. I don't want her to feel like I don't care about her. I don't want her to feel like I don't care about her. So the parent has to be the one to open that door and make sure

33:22that that there's a, there's that line of communication to say, Hey, come to me. If you've got questions, I'll do my best to answer them. And then, you know, sometimes you might need to go seek professional counseling. Absolutely. Yeah, as an adoptive parent, we have to check our ego at the door at times. And we have to be okay with whatever our kids are feeling about their adoption or about their adoption story. And we can sit with them with that and help them process through it.

33:54And I love that you're recommending professional help if possible, because parents don't always have all the answers. Yeah. And that's okay. Yeah. And as I said, as a parent of a 15 year old, I know that firsthand now. The other thing that I would say with with the adoptive parents, and again, I firmly believe that this is not every adoptive parent. But I know that some and I've spoken to some whether it's on social media or in person that there's this, I don't know what they

34:29call it like the term, but it's almost like this, this hero mentality, or this like, I'm going to be a savior. There it is. There it is. I would just caution that because, you know, the child, the you know, again, coming from an adoptee's perspective, you know, we already have these, you know, where did I come, you know, I'm, I've got, you know, this, I've got that, you know,

35:00what's wrong with me? Why didn't my parents, my birth mother, birth father not want me, circumstances, all those things. And if the adoptive parent comes in with this, I'm here to save this child, or something like that, that can lead to some issues down the road. You know, they may not want to share the information or something like that. So I would just, again, I know that there, you know, a lot of great adoptive parents out there, and they're doing great things. And,

35:32you know, there's a, as I tell people this all the time now, it's like, there's so many great things about adoption. And I fully support, you know, parents wanting to adopt for a variety of reasons, whatever that reason might be. But yeah, just, I would just say, you know, just really make sure that you're doing, you know, that you're not doing it so that you can, quote unquote, save. Yeah, a child. So yeah, I love that advice. And it actually made me think of the parts of other

36:03conversations we've had with other adoptees where even many, I mean, many adoptions now, the majority of adoptions now are open. But even then, if you're talking negatively or poorly about their birth parents, especially in front of them, they attach part of their identity to their birth parents. And that's just the facts. Like it's, that's how it's going to be. And if, if someone's talking negatively about their child's birth parent in front of them,

36:37they're going to extrapolate some of those feelings and put them on themselves. And we, I mean, we love our kids' birth parents and we, like, we try to help our kids see how wonderful they are and the amazing qualities they have. And it, it, I'm trying to figure out how to verbalize this, but knowing that they are connected and have those relationships, we want to do everything that we can to foster the best connection with their birth families

37:09possible. So talking positively, making sure we're having time to connect. And then like you said earlier, just making sure we're open about feelings and talking through things together. Thank you so much. There's so much great, great stuff. I think that we can learn from that part of your experience. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Maybe let's shift a little bit and talk about reunification. You shared a lot of your story, which was awesome. How do you feel like connecting to your aunt and your sister and your, your biological mom? How do you feel like that has

37:44influenced or affected your sense of identity? It helped me. It helped me realize, you know, it gave me a sense of identity. I don't want to use your question to my answer, but yeah, it gave me this sense of, okay, this is where I come from. This is my, you know, this is my, these are my, this is my background. This is, these are my roots, you know, this, these are the, you know, I can't, and I can't stress for me, I can't stress enough seeing the resemblance, like, you know, and I know,

38:25I think in the, when you sent the initial thing to me, you asked for a picture. One of the pictures I'll send to you is a picture of my sister and I, and the first time we met. And the thing that my wife said when she saw that picture was there's no need for a DNA test. Absolutely none. And so when I see my sister and I, or my mom, or even my aunt, it's this, I see the resemblance and seeing

38:56that is so, it's like, I can't put it into words properly how that made me, okay, this is my connection. This is like, these, this, you know, this is my family. And it also helped, you know, that they were so welcoming. Cause I know, I know that not every reunion or every adopt, you know, or every adopt, you know, every search ends up this way. I have been blessed. And the other thing

39:26that I was blessed with, and I can't stress this enough. And I would say this to any, you know, I would, I would pray this for any adoptee out there is that having a supportive spouse or a supportive partner was, I can't tell you how huge that was. My wife was there for me through, from beginning all the way through till now. And the ups, the downs, she was always there, always this,

40:01this voice of calm and, you know, never like said no, never, you know, like, why are you doing this? It was never that. And so I just, that was huge. Having that support system for me, it was so vital. And cause like I said, not every reunion ends up positive. I know that. And I've spoken to a lot of adoptees who got a door slammed in their face or, you know, they, you know, don't ever, you know,

40:35who are you? Don't ever come talk to me again or something like that. And I know that happens. And that's a, that is a whole journey in and of itself. And what do you do then? And they've asked me, it's like, what do I do? I'm like, well, you kind of got to take a step back. And, you know, this is, you got to remember that this is also new for them. You know, if they, like, cause it made my mom's case, my biological mom, she kept that secret for 45 years. She didn't tell anybody. Her, her husband,

41:10her own kid, they didn't know. Nobody knew. There was only three or four people that knew. And two of those were her, her mom and dad. So there's only like four people that knew what happened. And so when you have that kind of level of secrecy, it's tough when those things come, you know, that they come out of the closet or, you know, so to speak, figuratively speaking, you know, so, but yeah, I would really just say, you know, just try to stay positive. It's tough,

41:42but try to stay positive. Love that. And I feel like that answered like three of my other questions. Sorry. No, no, no, no, no. It's awesome. Um, one, one thing I was going to ask you was what helped you work through some of maybe the complicated emotions of reunification, but maybe I'll try to recap some of what you said. And if you want to add anything, please do. But, um, one, your birth family was very accepting of you, which I think makes the emotions maybe a little less complicated.

42:14Absolutely. You talked about having a supported connection, like your wife or a partner or somebody there that is just with you along the way. Anything else come to mind, um, to help you deal with that process emotionally? You know, I also think, um, is as, as, you know, as strange as it is, maybe that's not the right word, but, you know, uh, social media can be a very positive thing. I know, I know it gets a bad rap and, and for, you know, reasons that we can

42:44all agree on or whatever, but being a part of some of these adoption support pages or adult adoptees and things like that, being able to express and talk to other adoptees, you know, is a very important part of that. And I think that that was also a big factor because I found that, excuse me, um, oh, I'm not the only one that went through this. Oh, I'm not the only one.

43:15Oh, you know, you did, you were born there. Okay. Yeah. You know, you're finding people that have the same life experience that you did or similar, and that gives you a feeling of connection. Adopt these, especially like in my case from that closed adoption era, you know, the, the sixties and seventies where adoption was a really, you know, it was a dirty word. It was, it was like, you didn't talk about this stuff. Right. Um, and, and I'm really, you know, happy to hear that you, you know,

43:47you're, you have an, uh, an open adoption. That's awesome. And that, you know, that, that is, I, I often think, you know, what would have been if I had, you know, had, had mine been an open adoption, but, you know, it, it's, that's what I would say. It's like, yeah, that, that's something, you know, getting a part of that connection. And I would also, you know, give that advice to adoptive parents that as your adoptee gets older, um, find adoption groups, adoption support groups,

44:23support groups that are in your area and be brave enough to take your child to them and let them talk and let it, because they may share things with other adoptees that they don't want to share with you. Um, and that's not, you know, that's not a, you know, that's not a, a fence to the parents. It's just, when they find it's like in my case, when I find somebody that, oh, you were adopted. Oh, when did you get it? Okay. You know, and we start finding these little

44:53life experiences that we were similar. You feel connected and that's a huge part about adoptees is that feeling of connection, that feeling of, you know, being a part of something. So, yeah. And I've, I've heard that from other adoptees, also from, um, some birth parents that have shared, you know, being able to connect with others. One of them also cautioned. She said, you know, I could find a group on Facebook that everyone has the same exact opinion as me. It's

45:24kind of like an echo chamber. Um, but the things that helped her a lot was to also find people that had different experiences. Um, and so that it wasn't just so pinpointed and narrow just to understand more fully. Um, because as you know, um, no two adoptions are the same at all. And, and, you know, I'll add no two adoption journeys are the same. No, you know, everyone's journey is their journey. It's like, you know, and, and I also think, you know, at times it's easy

45:58for adoptees if they find out certain, once they find out certain things or maybe some things weren't as positive, they can get a, um, negative view about adoption. And it's, it's like you said, it's easy to get that very narrowed opinion, uh, because there are many adoptees that have very, very strong opinions and very strong feelings about their adoption. And that's okay. Keep it all in

46:31perspective is what, is what I always say, keep everything in perspective and realize that that's their journey. You know, hopefully it, things change and it gets better or whatever, but understand that that's not everybody. Like you said, no, no two, no two adoptions are the same. And that's one of the reasons we love having adoptees on our podcast. Um, because we, we get to hear just this huge variety of experiences, but as we piece all of those experiences together,

47:01we become more informed as a community. Um, and so, yeah, I love that. There's so much, so much we could talk about. Um, I do have a few more questions before we wrap up, but, um, maybe this kind of goes back to your younger age, but, um, what have you struggled with regarding adoption and what do you wish that other, other people understood about those struggles? Ooh, um, again, that feeling of belonging, you know, that feeling of loneliness, you know, I,

47:39as I said, I didn't realize that, that I had felt that until I was older, um, that, you know, man, I really was, I needed, I needed somebody, I needed, you know, whatever. Um, you know, that was, that was a tough part. You know, I, you know, I had people in my life that were father figures to me, but I, you know, losing my adopted dad really affected me personally.

48:11Um, because when, when I was a teenager, like my son's age now, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, my son's age now, 14, 15, 16, those are tough years. And the one person I wanted was my adopted dad, because I looked up to him, even though I didn't know him, even though I knew very little about him, he became like a, you know, like a superhero to me. You know? And so that was hard.

48:47That was like, man, I don't, I don't, who am I? I don't know who I am. I, you know, yeah, I've had this adopted mom, but she's Japanese. She's speaking, she speaks, she spoke Japanese in the house to her friends. You know, I don't know what she's talking about. I don't know who she's talking about. Um, so that for me was, was a difficult part growing up is that, you know, this sense of belonging, this sense of, you know, you, you are a part of this. And again,

49:18I don't doubt that my adopted mom cared about me, that she loved me, you know, this and this and that, but there was a piece missing. And so, yeah, I would say that that part of adoption was, was tough. And then, you know, kids at that, you know, especially at the young age, you know, nine, 10, 11, they're, they can, they can be tough. And when they find out that you're adopted, like, oh, you know, especially back then in the eighties, you know, it was, you know, absolutely.

49:48And then when they find out that your adopted mom is Japanese, like I have a Japanese middle name. Um, my, my mom gave me a middle name that was her brother's. Um, and so when they find out that I had a, a, um, Japanese middle name, then it just was relentless. And you know, the, the constant, you know, you know, I actually had kids come up to me and slant their eyes to me. Um, and I'm like,

50:18I'm not, I'm not Japanese, you know, that's like, oh, but you know, this, so yeah, it's just that. And, you know, then how do, you know, then how do I deal with that as a, you know, 11 or 12 year old kid? It's like, you know, that was hard. Um, especially if your feelings are guarded and you don't feel like you can approach like most trusted adult about it. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's hard. Yeah. That was, those were the tough parts for me. And again, going home to, uh, to an adopted mom who, you know, didn't really understand all of this. And I, you know, wasn't probably going to be

50:54much help. So I kept that all in everything. I kept it all in. So having that, yeah. As I said earlier, having those outlets to talk about those things is huge. Okay. Very good. Thank you so much. Um, the adoption community faces a lot of challenges. Um, what do you think we, like, if we could change one thing about adoption or how it's perceived, what, what comes to mind? Uh, well, first I would say, this is just my own personal opinion. First, I would say that every

51:29state needs to open up to, uh, original birth certificates. Like as soon as, as soon as that adoptee turns 18, they should be able to, and if they want their original birth certificate, they should be able to go and get their original birth certificate. Um, and that's just something as an aside, like, you know, you know, I don't know that in my lifetime, North Carolina is ever going to change. They're always going to have closed adoption records, you know, whatever.

52:02So what I did, and it was frustrating initially, but what I did is I got involved in other states, adopt other states, um, initiatives. Uh, like for example, I submitted my story to, um, Connecticut. Uh, this is when I was living up in Rhode Island. Uh, the state of Connecticut was doing an initiative or trying to put forth a bill to, um, get, you know, get original birth certificates. And I submitted my story and everything else. They now have, you know, open records and they

52:37now have, um, original, you know, adult adoptees can get original birth certificates. Um, I have done that for a couple other states to get involved in those, those efforts. Um, I just, like I said, if I could say one thing about, you know, the, the, you know, perspective about adoption is it's not one size fits all, you know, everybody's going to have a different, like we said earlier, everybody's going to have a different opinion, a different outlook, a different whatever, but there's so much, there's so many things that are positive about adoption

53:13and there's so many kids out there that are in foster care that, that, that, that, that, that they need a loving home. There's no question about that. And again, that's, that's where I would say, you know, if you're looking into adoption, you know, really be prepared for that day when, as best you can be prepared for that day when that adoptee, you know, that child that you adopted is going to say, tell me about my birth parents. Yeah. I want to know where,

53:43where did I come from? What were my parents, you know, and if you have that information, share it with them. Yeah. And again, age appropriate. Hopefully, yeah. Hopefully it can be part of the narrative that they always know. Yeah. And that there's not just one day where it gets sprung on them, but like, like we've said, age appropriately, help them understand if you have a great open adoption, they're going to be involved anyway. Right. But yeah,

54:13I, I, yeah, I did some Googling really quick and saw that only 12 States right now in the U S allow someone when they turned 19, um, to see their original birth certificates. So, yeah. Um, there's a lot of work to still be done to help that happen. Yeah. And you know, I've spoken to, I, you know, again, my, my focus for a long time was on North Carolina. And I've spoken to

54:45a couple of legislators in North Carolina and their response to me is the same. It's usually, you know, these, you know, most of it's women, but these people, um, they were promised secrecy. They were promised that they're, that this would stay secret. And my response to them is always the same. I'm like, you do understand that it's now 2020, 2022, whatever it is. There's things

55:15like ancestry DNA, uh, one, two, three, and me, there's all these things out there now that these secrets are not secrets anymore. They're not going to be dormant for long. Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, I just, yeah, it's, it's really, it's really sad that that's, you know, like you said, it's only 12 states that have, that allow adult adoptees, people that are my age, you know, in their fifties to go and get their original birth certificate. So, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

55:50We're actually, um, we're actually going to do just a little mini series where we potentially try to help a couple of adoptees who are searching. Um, we have an adoptee who's very much into genealogical DNA, um, and she's willing to use her expertise to help. Um, and yeah, and there's another, another story that we'll actually share probably in the episode before this, um, where DNA uncovered a lot of maybe deception or lies that had been told. Um, and yeah, things and, and

56:28unintentionally, um, but any, so maybe thinking of that group of people who might be participating in that, any advice that you'd give them as they potentially are preparing to connect with birth family. Take it one day at a time, you know, keep everything in perspective and take it one day at a time because it's easy to get wrapped up in a beautiful narrative or this is the way it's going to work out. And I can just tell you from my own experience that it wasn't

57:00a smooth ride. There were bumps along the way, not major, but there were bumps along the way. Along the way. And so you just have to take it one day at a time for me. Um, my faith, my faith was huge as far as that rock that I can rely on. And, um, yeah, just, and again, I, oh, I always go back to having a support system, having a spouse, a partner, um, you know,

57:30a best friend, whatever it might be that can be alongside you through that journey and just be there and just say, I'm here, whatever, what, what do you need? I may not be able to help, I may not be able to answer these questions, but I'm here to listen. Cause that's, and a lot of times that's, that's what, you know, that's what they need. They need someone to listen. Yeah, for sure. Well, Patrick, thank you so much for spending some time with us. It was my pleasure. I've really appreciated your openness and I've learned a lot from you. And I hope,

58:01I know that our community will as well. So thank you so much. Well, I, again, I appreciate it. It's my pleasure. And, uh, really I support what you're doing and, and wish you nothing but the best going forward. Awesome. Thank you. Wow. I really appreciated this interview. I loved hearing all of the different things Patrick had to share. I really liked what he talked about when he said that we should keep things in perspective and we should remember that we might have an experience that looks like this and then others

58:37might have experiences that are completely opposite and hold space for these different experiences and be respectful of the fact that people have different experiences being open to listening to those anyway. I thought that was a great reminder. Yeah, I really liked that. Um, and I think that's a great reminder. Um, something that I, I am glad for Patrick's sake was how receptive his biological family was. Now I know that that's not always the case, but in this circumstance, that really helped

59:08Patrick in, in finding some of the answers to the questions that he had. And for me, again, I guess, thinking just as an adoptive parent, um, if I can do everything in my power to help our children have positive and meaningful connections with their birth families, then my hope is that they can have a lot of those same type of answers or feelings. Yeah, I think that's great. You know, something else that I kept thinking of while I listened to

59:38this episode was something that another adoptee shared with us once. I think it was Devaney. She said, if you can't have an open adoption, at least have an open dialogue, have open communication about everything, you know, as an adoptive parent, right? If you can't have that open, like that connection to biological family, at least have all of the information you can available to your child. And I think that's so important.

60:09As Patrick was talking about availability of original birth certificates for adoptees and how that's such a huge problem, how it's not an option. And so many states just made me think about how important it is as adoptive parents to really make sure we're providing everything we know to our kids. Of course, some things might be more sensitive, need to share details in appropriate ways, but, but really these are their stories and empowering adoptees to have all of

60:44the information they can. I think that's really important. Me too. Well, thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. And thank you to Patrick for sharing and being so open with us. Yes. So wonderful. Just a quick shout out. If you would like to subscribe to our newsletter and you have not, you can do that at our website at openadoptionproject.org. And if you or someone you know, might be interested in getting some free help with finding their biological family through DNA searching, we are partnering with Devaney Roberts and she is

61:19hoping to help a couple more adoptees. So we're looking for a couple more applicants. If you're interested, you can find that application on our website at openadoptionproject.org or in the show notes. Again, thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project.

62:04Okay.

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