Trauma, Transitions, and Therapy with Maria Trimble

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 60. We're the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun. In this episode we learn from a Peruvian adoptee named Maria Trimble. She is a licensed mental health counselor and a licensed professional counselor. I really enjoyed listening to this episode, this conversation with Maria and Lanette. And there's a lot of really great things that she includes. Yeah, she talks a lot about trauma, the transition of moving to the United States from Peru when she was a small child,

0:37and the impact that therapy can have on helping with coping with both trauma and transitions, especially for adoptees. You can learn more about Maria on her website, Hikingtheheart.com, where she provides different professional services for adoptees, both adults and adolescents. Yes, and she also provides consultations for adoptive parents and adoption professionals. And she's really just wonderful to talk to. We're really excited to jump into this episode.

1:17We are here on the podcast with Maria. Maria, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you for having me. To start off, can we have you tell us a bit about who you are, what you enjoy doing? Yeah, so I'm Maria Trimble. I'm a licensed therapist. Some of my hobbies include hiking, which is how I named my practice, right? Hiking the heart. And lately biking, and I like reading and cooking. So fun. It's wonderful. And where about do you live? Right now I'm located in Green Bay, Wisconsin.

1:48Awesome. All right. So you are an adoptee. Can you go ahead and share your adoption story with us, whatever you'd like to share? Yeah, yeah, of course. It's so interesting when you hear this big question, you're like, oh, you know, what do I share? There's so much that's happened sometimes within the story. But I, you know, I was born in Cusco, Peru, and adopted around two and a half years of age. I was adopted with my biological siblings and a family from New York adopted us.

2:22And I lived in upstate New York for a few years, up until around seven years old. But then we, my family moved to central Florida. And that's where I was raised. I grew up in central Florida for the most part and went to school there. And I would say like around that time, I would have like a pretty average American life. I didn't really think about adoption or being an adoptee. That wasn't like, yes, I thought about looking different, but that necessarily wasn't like attached to being adopted.

2:56And then, yeah, I, you know, went to went to school and started a family of my own. And I would say that is some of the time that I started to have more thoughts of like what it means to be an adoptee, what it means to be a mother was like a huge thing for me as I became a mother myself. And that's what started some of my search and reunion process as I got older. And I am in reunification with my biological family. I found them in 2019, the end of 2019.

3:32Oh, that's amazing. How cool. So you were adopted when you were two and a half, you said. Do you remember a time before you were adopted? Right. No, I had no memories of leaving Peru and then like moving to the United States. However, there are stories and these are things that I had heard over the years, but like never really thought too much about until I got older because there wasn't enough to eat for me and my sibling.

4:03Like I would for food. So my adoptive parents would find like random food in my closet. And they would ask me, you know, why do you have this? And I would say in Spanish, you know, it's going to run out. Like I just didn't quite still understand this idea that I'm adopted. Right. So and that, you know, was a question people ask me a lot, like, were you ever sat down and told you were adopted? Like, who told you? And I and I because I was a little bit older, like a toddler, no one told me.

4:33I just knew like there was never this sit down talk. And and also, like, I looked very different than my adoptive parents. They're white and I am clearly not. So I never had that discussion with them. And so did they speak Spanish to that? No, no. Oh, wow. No. So that must have been a really big transition. Wow. It was really, really big. And again, like because it wasn't seen as big. Right. It's just sort of like I remember my adoptive parents saying that their social workers at their adoption agencies were like, just treat it like a normal like child, like child pretty much like, oh, just pretend like she'll learn English.

5:15Just keep speaking to her in English. There wasn't this encouragement to develop my language or to for them to learn Spanish to help me along. It was just sort of like, oh, just just keep keep going. Just pretend, you know, and then like Maria will just like she'll integrate. Right. It within and and I did. Right. I did. But with that comes a lot of loss. Yeah. And, you know, like kind of like what we're talking about right now is like, oh, like there's a lot of missed stuff.

5:46Right. Within that. So, yeah, now when I think about it, it's very difficult. Right. And these are some hard conversations I've had with my adoptive parents about it. But in the moment, I think, you know, they were just trying their best to sort of like love on me the best way. And they're looking to the professionals. And this is what the professionals are saying. So they did what they were told. Interesting. So do you have other siblings that you grew up with who were either biological children of your adoptive parents or also adopted besides your sibling that you were adopted with?

6:20Yeah, no. So just me and my sibling and my adoptive parents adopted because they couldn't conceive. So that was the reason they wanted to grow their family. So what have your experiences been like with reunion with finding your birth family? It is difficult. It's a roller coaster. I think I, you know, when I went into it, there's just so much excitement and like I want to know who I am, who I come from. And that's really like has its joyous moments, but at the same time I didn't understand even with everyone telling me it's a lot.

6:58Right. How difficult it is to be in reunion. I think too, like just like the language barrier, the space barrier. We've just missed out on each other's lives so much. Having a big family. So my biological family is really large, and I've only met my maternal side. So there's still like a whole nother reunion almost for me awaiting because I know I want to one day look for my father's side.

7:31But it's just because I've already experienced the reunion of my maternal side. It's just like, I know I have to be like, sort of in a place where I can just be ready and I'll put this in quotes like ready because I don't know if you're ever really ready for some of this. But yeah, it's a roller coaster. I'm oldest of seven kids. So, understanding that to that, you know, it's more than reuniting with your biological mother or father. It's like reuniting with your siblings and aunties and uncles and cousins, and they all want to talk to you.

8:08You know, so just amazing but yeah so do you speak Spanish now do you have someone translate or how does that work. Uh, so I've studied Spanish in school, you know, both in high school and in college. I would say I'm like, okay, I'm getting better at it but there is a part of me that's like it's very emotional learning this language. So sometimes, you know when it's really hard. And I'm like, I tend to shy up sometimes shy away from things that cause like a little bit of distress so over the years it, it's gotten better, but now I just throw myself in.

8:45So I've taken some tutoring. I'm like, what better way to just do it like I'm gonna mess up, you know, and my, and also like my biological family expects me to sort of messed up and they kind of they're very gentle with it. They're, you know, and so we've kind of been, we've been able to build that relationship up where I can feel comfortable, not knowing words are like Google translating I use Google translate a lot.

9:17And yeah so it's getting better but it's still it's not great. Yeah, that's a challenge. So how did you find your family. Yeah, so that was like a process but ultimately Facebook. That's how I found my family so because of when my my adoption took place in 91. Some of my paperwork wasn't. It's legal, but I would say that it was misguided or coerced in the sense like there is like some things I have found out about my adoption that just unethical, really, which is really sad.

9:58Yeah, right and hard to like sort of to deal with until like bring into your story. So I had another birth certificate made for my adoption which I guess at that time was very common in Peru, but it had very little information and so when I finally found my original birth certificate. And that was with the help of finding other proven adoptees so I would say that community in this aspect really really helped me because even though I might have met another person that was adopted, finding Peruvian adoptees like adoptees from

10:36my specific country was just a huge thing in my life and I learned so much from them and through them, they were encouraging me like if you really want to look. You know we can help you because for the most part my documents are all in Spanish, and I while I would look at them like I didn't understand everything I didn't know all the numbers men, right, but here's a group of people that are saying we found our family. We can help you. So, um, then finding my original birth certificate.

11:07Oh, it opened up so much more information. I found my half sister through Facebook, because in Peru. The older people they don't have Facebook they're not going online it's the younger people right so I found my half sister and as soon as I saw her. I was like this is this is my sister. And then came the part of reaching out right so I just sent her a Facebook message and said I think I'm your sister, and she knew immediately who I was.

11:40So, she knew, she knew that you were adopted and that you're new. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. Well, that's a really incredible story so what advice would you give to other adoptees who are trying to find their first family and trying to make those connections. I love this question I would say like go for it. I know sometimes there's a lot of like what ifs and doubts.

12:10But don't give up is one of the advice, like something I would say don't give up. And then also like, knowing your history is so important, and I would encourage any adoptee to want to know their history and it's their right to know it, but building relationships is different, so you don't necessarily have to build a relationship with your biological family, you know, but knowing your history, you know, like, I would just always encourage any adoptee to go down that path.

12:40I love that yeah. So, growing up, you said that adoption really didn't factor in to your thoughts very often. Is there anything that you did struggle with regarding adoption, or that you wish other people understood. Yeah. Okay, well I would say like currently, you know, or like even those past few years like mental health, right, is something I think I've always struggled with that never quite had help in or like understanding like how does this factor into like, what's going on in my life

13:16you know. So, yeah, becoming a mother myself really just opened up so much. And so many questions. Even though I had already been to grad school at this point, I had already been to grad school and like doing supervision to become a licensed therapist. And that still even in grad school like adoption family separation these things aren't talked about in regards to like how do we help. Right, but, but at the same time, I would see most of my clients did have some sort of either family separation or they were adopted. And I was like, come on, there's got to be like a correlation or, you know, there's something going on here.

13:57And so that's something like I would say I will always continue struggling with when we talk about trauma and seeing family separation as a trauma. I really feel in that place to feel comfortable talking about it. I went to advent of therapy like as for myself to just really understand what it's like, you know, to give this sort of like vulnerable information to someone else and like, here.

14:29You know, and how that's like so helpful. And then we're talking about adoption issues in general. But yeah, so mental health, definitely something I currently still, I will say always and was still struggle with and will I not always continue like just working on. I think that's so important. So how do you feel like the adoption community can better support adoptees, especially in regards to mental health and helping them have access to that.

14:59Yeah, so I honestly like the adoption community I think it has been really wonderful. And regards to mental health and like normalizing the things that we go through and validating. What are the challenges that we face. I think creating allies outside of the adoption community is the next step. When we talk to people in our circles about what the struggle is for an adoptee. And I think we are not opening up the door for other people outside the adoption community to get it.

15:32Because I don't know if this has been your experience but like usually when I'm in these circles, people are like yeah yeah like I think the same thing and it's now the step of getting everyone else to see it as well. Yeah, I love that so you said that while you were in school, learning about your trade about how to help people that it really you really didn't talk about adoption or family separation these traumas. And so, do you have any thoughts for how we can better train mental health professionals to help there needs to definitely be more coursework right and then I think also acknowledging adoptees as

16:14the leaders the experts in what this is like what this feels like right like we're the best ones to inform the public on what it's like to be separated and then adopted. And then, you know, depending on the situation. Just, you know, overall like the lifespan, what we continue to face will have these little triggers here and there. Right. I mean as you get older you may like reckon with your story and in a different way, and you have these hard conversations

16:50with your adoptive parents with your adoptive families. And sometimes you're just not prepared for what's going to happen next, you know. So, yeah, I would say like leaning on adoptees, knowing that they're the experts. And then you know I think you know colleges universities, like having their hiring people to talk about this more. And just to acknowledge that it is a trauma to be separated.

17:21And I know there's so many adoptee researchers out there now there's like adoptee people who are making coursework, you know, so I love that and I like always support that yes it's so exciting. So I know it's out there. So I just hope that people will like start reaching out to them and like including them in these panels and discussions. Great. Thank you. So, thinking about international adoption. Was there anything specific that your adopted family did to help you connect to your Peruvian heritage.

17:52Unfortunately, no. I, that's a hard part like I was raised colorblind and really just raised in the sense that like you'll be okay. Right like we, you were in a situation that you know had little resources and poverished family like your father put you up for adoption. And now we're here and you're better. Right. You know and and that's the hard part is that like being better or and physically like space where there's more resources better education.

18:27There are yes I was granted different opportunities and I would have been in Peru, but identity, culture, like that was something I've always struggled with and it, and I would say even to this day like my parents still sort of hold a colorblind mentality. And that's really really hard. Because you can't really change people's perceptions on that all I could do is change my own. And I was like okay when I finally got into like my 20s.

18:57And then now 30 is like, I finally just feel more at peace, because now I can make these decisions for myself. But that's something that I always try to connect adoptive parents to is that they need to encourage and put themselves sort of in uncomfortable situations, if your child is from another country. Or if they're from another region like they're from South America so we'll just go here. No, you have to really like oh my daughter is Guatemala you have to search for Guatemala communities, like very you want to be very specific when it comes to that part of the identity

19:42for an adoptee. I think that's great advice. So, going back to adoption education, what resources you wish we had for international adoptees and for the families that adopt them to help better cement these connections to their heritage. Right. So this is a question that I had like a hard time. So I was like, oh man like, while I'm a big advocate and want to lend my voice, I will say that I haven't, I don't really quite know what is already in place I know the Hay Convention and like 2000

20:18really put in a lot of steps for families looking to adopt internationally. So I know that there is some like psycho education there is some stuff happening that is different than my, my adoption that was, you know, back in 1990. But I would say like I wish that we didn't necessarily have to take the child from this country and bring them somewhere else. Yeah, I would say that like, you know, I wish that we could find the resources and the supports within their country because that child is losing a lot.

20:54I would encourage you know adopted parents to live in that country for a while not just go visit to get the kid and bring them home. You know, I would encourage them to really know that when you adopt a child from another country, you're adopting like their culture, their heritage like you really want to support all of that development. And then know to where you lack. Right. And then, and just like always know that like it's beyond you at this point like their identity formation is like beyond sometimes what they can give.

21:34So again, like I wish that we didn't have to take them out of the country. But if that were the case, then yeah I would encourage them to live in that country, learn the language cook the foods at home like just do a lot of stuff like that. Yeah, I think those are all great thoughts. You hear about so many really unethical and horrible things happening in international adoption. And there's just so many barriers right like language barriers and cultural barriers and there's poverty and.

22:08Yeah, it. It's a huge problem where people are just taking advantage of and. Yeah, I think those are great thoughts. So in retrospect, what do you wish your adoptive family or the community that you grew up in knew about the needs of adoptees and trauma. Yeah, I wish I just acknowledge that it was a trauma, to be honest, I think when we acknowledge that there is pain here. And that's not all like happy that there's a lot of loss and grief that's going along with adoption you know the child is losing a lot.

22:43They're losing their family they're like for international adoption like they're losing their language, and they may have access to this later on, but acknowledging that in this moment, this child is going through something traumatic. Yeah, can really be. I think the first step. What adoptive parents, I wish what my adoptive parents could have done for me you know being a little bit older. I knew what was going on you know and becoming a mother myself I see my, she's not three but two and a half.

23:17I was like oh my gosh she is so smart. You know exactly what's going on and then I put myself. Little Maria knew exactly and I feel so sad for her, because no one was saying, Are you okay. Yeah. Do you feel like you got a lot of people kind of pushing the lucky adoptee narrative on you. Yeah, yes. All the time, every day I mean still to this day. You know people will and so say like oh, you know I bet you're like really happy to be here. Yeah.

23:50You know, and it's just really yeah, yeah, it's difficult because you don't acknowledge you know all the losses with adoption. I've had people say like oh wow that sounds hard. And that's almost like a better response right now just like just focusing on the positive of like, oh, you must be your parents must be so great. And like, aren't you really happy. Oh, especially with reunion. There's a sense like now that it's like a perfect boat oh you found your family now oh and so it's done and there's no time left.

24:20Yeah. And it's like, you know it's still really hard. So very difficult and not a lot of people have to do these things, you know, and so. Yeah, it's, it's pretty challenging that that language and I wish, you know, growing up people would check in more like hey are you okay. Hey, notice, I'm noticing that, you know, you seem really sad today, right, like even or even just bringing them. Like, are every, honestly my parents would have brought me to a therapist early on. I didn't have like very extreme behaviors or like you know I didn't have like these signs of trauma but I know I would have benefited from talking to somebody.

25:00Absolutely. So, do you have any thoughts on finding a good therapist when there might not quite we might not be quite at that point where there's a lot of education about adoption and trauma. What advice would you give to find a good fit. Yeah, so I would say look for a therapist who is trauma informed. Who is engagement informed.

25:30I also would say like it depending on your goals for therapy like finding someone who does something other than talk therapy. So talk therapy is great I love talk therapy I, I don't, I've gone to a talk therapist, but doing like EMDR brain spotting. And I think that's the same thing for both of us. We still are different. And I say that to you doing both right so I just, I've been a talk therapist I've gone to talk therapy but last year I was trained in EMDR, I movement desensitization reprocessing.

26:08And then also, you know, I just find that it helps so much with developmental trauma complex trauma attachment trauma, something that like adoptees we know we have. So, that would be like my advice is, is look for a therapist like that. Awesome. That's great advice. Thank you. I'm really interested in what you're going to say to this. So do you think that your adoption experiences have influenced your career path. Yes. Yeah, okay, definitely, definitely.

26:39I've always wanted to be a helper and growing up that looked very different different areas. But, yeah I being adopted has really, you know, driven me to be helpful, slash, like, I would say I'm a recovering and call myself a recovering people pleaser. Right. So, um, yeah, but and I noticed to that this isn't a bad thing. It's just something quality about me but I can use it now in my occupation to help others to really understand how others are what they're feeling what they're experiencing.

27:20I don't think I would be in this line of work. If it wasn't for my adoption, especially creating my private practice. I worked with community, mental health programs I worked in schools a lot. But being an adoptee and then also being a therapist and then I was like, Okay, there's like so many adoptees slash adoptive parents slash you know just mental health in general that needs someone with lived experience to really validate the stuff that's going on.

27:52And kind of buckling down and just saying you know like okay I'm going to do this I'm going to like believe in myself even though rejection is such a big trigger. I was like no I can do this, you know, and so being in private practice like going, being in business or like doing this on my own has been a little scary. But I found a community of people and like other adopting therapists like you know that are doing it and I'm like, Okay, I can do this too, you know, have to believe in myself. Awesome. I love that. So can you tell us more about your work with psychotherapy with the adoption community what you're doing.

28:28Yeah, so right now I'm doing a lot of individual work one on ones and now starting support group. I love group therapy, I would say that was something that I really loved when I was working in community, community mental health. And so I'm trying to bring that into the adoptive world because really we just want to belong, right, this feeling of belonging and being connected is so powerful. And I was like, Okay, I'm working with so many people one on one, personally, professionally, and I'm just like, I want to bring you all together like I want you guys to see that like you're not crazy, like you're literally just handling something that's really tough.

29:12And having someone be like me too. Can be so powerful and so I love group work and some. I started group already. But I'm hoping to bring more group work into my practice, and then also I'm hoping to be writing. Well I'm already writing a book, or it's like a workbook journal about reunion. There's little resources. Yeah, there's little resources out there, I think for the reunion process and it's, you know, not always talked about what it's like to be in reunion and like active reunion, right like just ongoing.

29:50So, I'm trying to create a workbook around that. That's awesome. What a cool idea I've never heard of anything like that seems like a really helpful resource. Thank you. How cool. Well, we'll make sure that we have your contact information and our show notes. What's your website, and I'll make sure we have that in there. Yeah, www.hikingtheheart.com. Perfect. I've been there. It's a great website. Thank you. So anything else you want to talk about with the services you provide, or anything else. Yeah, oh yeah, I forgot to mention.

30:24I also do some well I also do consultation work with adoptive families adoptive parents. It doesn't necessarily look like therapy so the adoptive parents can be from anywhere. And really it's just like an individualized look at what's happening, whether that's like in your family or with your adoptee your child, you know, what are you doing. So when I pull in my like professional like sense of like trauma and like coping skills, like what's in your toolbox or those all of those things, but also just personal experience of being right and adoptee and noticing to that like,

31:01there's not a lot of language sometimes unless we're giving the child the language, you know, or permission to use this language around around us happening and I think being an older like adopted person I can help fill in some of those gaps and like okay well I remember I you know work with people who have experienced this, you know, and just kind of normalizing that it's okay to reach out for help. I don't have a better person to reach out to help but like an adoptee and someone who's in the mental health field.

31:33That's amazing. Yeah, I love that you're doing this. That's a really important work. Very cool. So what kind of support do you want to see for adoptees in the future. That's a good one. Um, I love seeing what people are currently doing like there's so many different panels something different groups happening. I love that. More supports, I think just getting society or like our community of like more willing to talk about the complexities of adoption. You know I do acknowledge that people have very great experiences, you know, and even in my life I've, you know, I've shared being

32:18a child and just like having some like a lot of difficulty around motherhood and and mental health, but I still have very fond memories right and it's actually just so much. It's very complex. Right so having society having our communities realize that it's not this black and white thing, you know, it's not good or bad. It's just complex and we need to be able to discuss it. So that's the stuff I would like to see you know and I hope that as like I see more professionals I see more people like talking about it and normalizing it, that we can get sort of like the society communities around us to just support our voices,

33:01because I already see there's so much great stuff happening within our adoption communities. I love that yeah. So in your experience, what are, I feel like we've talked about this a bit but what are some additional ways that we can support adoptees especially maybe focusing on trans racial adoptees international adoptees how can we better support these adoptees and help them feel more seen. I think that sounds like a little bit of her professional support right realizing that we can't do everything.

33:37I'm bringing them to spaces where they're not the only person of color, that would be my best recommendation. I'm acknowledging that when you look around if you're adoptee is the only one of color. And you know that's not going to be okay in the long run you know we, I really would want you almost the adoptive family to be like maybe the only white people are the only white, you know, in the room. Just to see what it's like because a lot of adoptees we will find our state self and spaces and we that we feel really comfortable and it's mostly white right.

34:15Because that's a lot of times the way we were raised and then we look around like oh, I'm not connected to my culture and then here is a little bit of the tension. So, yeah, that's what I would say like, please just step outside your comfort zone and be willing to be the only one of your color in the room, and you know, give the adoptee the chance to blend in. That's my thing to blend in. It's very nice for at trans racial transnational adoptees that feeling sometimes.

34:50I know for me didn't happen until I was like way older to blend in and what that was like. Great, thank you. As a social worker. How have your perceptions of adoption changed over time. Yeah, okay so well I'm trained in mental health counseling psychology so I would say it's, it's drastically changed, you know, just sharing some of my personal experience right like I didn't even think about it as part of the reason why was like stressed about things.

35:23And now, you know, going through my programs and then like working within the community. I would say it's just noticing that we don't always know, you know why something is happening but we can have really great guesses. And I think just acknowledging that adoption and family separation is a lot of times part of the equation. And so it's my point of view has drastically changed and sometimes I'm like, oh, this is probably an adoptee issue right and being okay with that so then oh my gosh, it's an adoptee it's like probably just an adoptee issue I need to work through this.

36:00So interesting so if you could change one thing in the world of adoption, what would you change to normalize the openness of adoption like talking about all of it, right, not just recognizing the good stuff. Recognizing some of the pain some of the loss, encouraging adoptive parents to get therapy first would be a big thing that I would want to change like let's get mental health resources for the adopted parents to even talk about like what the reasons they want to adopt

36:33right are they ready to parent a child this experience of trauma. What are the skills around that parenting a child that's experiencing trauma. So, those are big things so right like just changing the language around how we talk about adoption, and then also the adopted parents getting therapy themselves. That's great. Yeah, I think it's kind of crazy how I mean, you have to jump through a lot of hoops as an adopted parents who do it but there really isn't therapy involved and of course there should be that makes so much sense.

37:07That's great advice. Yeah. So, talking about how you would change language I'm really curious what would you like to change. Oh yeah like so just, um, I think what we talked about earlier, like, um, when someone's sure that they're adopted, you know, having someone say like, oh, tell me more or like, oh that must have been hard, even versus. Oh, that's wonderful. Oh, then that makes it seem like I can't tell you the parts that aren't wonderful. Yeah. Right. Or maybe this person isn't really wanting to hear from like the actual truth which a lot of times it's, it's hard to be adopted and sometimes

37:53it feels like this like necessarily a secret but it's like something pretty powerful and when you're sort of normalized to continue to share this piece of information with everybody. Right and neighbor, like this person that person it's just, it becomes very trivial. When reality it's actually a trauma I'm sharing my trauma, all the time. Yeah, right. And it's very difficult so I would love to change that language and from like oh that's wonderful, you know, to like, oh that sounds hard. Yeah, so creating more of that psychological safety, where you feel safe.

38:27Talking about this trauma that you've experienced. All right. Well, what else would you like to talk about. I feel like I'm still on my journey I'm learning like math about myself like re reunion for me like it's been almost three years now, but still feel so new. Yeah, I still am always like gaining so much from the adoption community. I'm always still like checking in with myself like do I believe something different now like, and I want to have that growth mindset of like, you know, I'm allowed to change my mind.

38:58You know, and with more information I'm allowed to believe something different now. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I think that's great. One of my favorite things we've done, probably about 50 of these interviews so far and we asked a lot of the same questions and I mean sometimes we do get similar answers we get so many different answers that I just love getting this huge spectrum of different experiences and different takes on people's experiences. I think it's amazing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and I love being a community where it feels safe.

39:33Right, because like you said I mean, while we all share something right being adopted, we still have had such different experiences and we've had different, you know, ways to cope and different ways to get around it. And that's why like I, I will say sometimes like I think like being a therapist worked well for me because I'm a great listener. Right and this is something that I had to deal with, like growing up like I'm a good listener people will come to me. But as far as like working on my own stuff.

40:05Like it's, you know, like putting yourself in the spot and reading this question was like oh wow tell people about my story. So that's why I was like oh like I love being a therapist but I'm and I do have to also keep myself in check and like okay but what am I not processing right now. Yeah, right as I like help others I'm like, oh no I got to process my stuff too. You know so that's why I love interviews like this is like a little bit of both I get to share my stuff and like reflect. On like, what's my journey been like, but also like share like my passion for mental health and how it definitely intersects. Well I love it I really loved learning from you and hearing your thoughts.

40:45So valuable. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. We're so grateful for Maria again for her wisdom and experience, and just for being so open and willing to share with us. Yes, we're always so grateful to hear from adoptees and are so happy that she was able to share what she's experienced and learned to help us hopefully improve adopt the experiences for others.

41:19And so my takeaway for me is something that I learned from this episode was that when we're interacting with adoptees, often. They may share that they were adopted, and almost the gut reaction that our society has created is to say oh that's wonderful. She shared that when people do that, that it makes it harder for you to talk about maybe harder or more difficult feelings that you might have around adoption. And so I think my, my takeaway is that when I meet somebody who's adopted or I'm talking to

41:51somebody who's adopted rather than saying, oh, that's great or that's wonderful, asking them more like, oh, tell me more about your adoption or has that been has that been difficult or has that been hard anyway, opening the door for maybe acknowledging some of the harder feelings that might exist in adoption. I think that is really important. I think it's probably also important to just keep it more neutral and allow adoptees to share whatever experiences they have. Not necessarily positive or negative, but just yeah, making sure that's a safe space.

42:23Well, thanks again to Maria and thanks to each of you for being a listener to the open adoption project. We have loved putting this podcast together over the last year and a half. And I hope, I hope it's doing a lot for the adoption community, but I know it's doing a lot for me to grow and learn. Yeah, for me too. It's really kind of fun. We hit 18 months this week. Yeah, and this is episode 60 when we started, we never imagined that it would be like this or that we have so many downloads and so many listeners.

42:53So we're grateful that we get to connect with you. Please feel free to reach out to us on Instagram or just visit our website at openadoptionproject.org. And we'd love to connect again if you have any specific topics that you'd like us to cover or if you know someone that you think would be great for us to connect with an interview and have them share their story and lessons learned. We'd love for you to connect with us again. You can get in touch with us via Instagram or at the website. There's a contact form. Thanks so much for listening.

43:45Thank you.

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