Transitions into Adulthood with Dr. Christina Reese and Eliane Shenk

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 61. We're the Nelsons. I'm Shaun, and in this episode, my wife Lanette does an interview with the authors of a book that comes out this week titled Leveling Up! Adoptive Parents and Adult Adoptees, Taking Your Relationship to the Next Level. In this episode, authors Elaine Schenck and Dr. Christina Reiss share some amazing information about how we help children who were adopted make the transition

0:31into adulthood. I love the conversation that Lanette had with these two very intelligent and warm and fun ladies. I think for me as an adoptive parent, I have put so much thought and energy around the beginnings of adoption relationships and kind of creating a game plan for the early formative years of the lives of my children, but this conversation really opened my eyes to my role as a parent as I help my who are now young children transition

1:04into adulthood and help them with potential trauma and other difficulties and challenges that they may have and experience because they were adopted. Again, I really just love this conversation. I think that you will walk away from this episode having learned a lot. We are super, super appreciative to both Elaine and Christina for their expertise, for their willingness to share, and for their initiative in writing this book. Leveling Up! comes out

1:35on October 20th of 2022 and is available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. We'll put a link in the show notes to today's episode so that you can check it out. I'm just so excited for you to hear this conversation that we're just going to jump right now to the interview with Lanette, Elaine, and Christina. All right. We are here on the podcast with Christina and Elaine. Ladies, thank you so

2:12much for being here. Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting us. So to start off, can we hear a bit about each of you? We want to hear about your hobbies, your backgrounds, and what your exposure to adoption is previous to writing this book. Let's start with Christina. So, well I grew up working in a lot of different areas. Even as a teenager, I went on some mission trips and worked in some orphanages overseas and saw a need for children to have

2:44families. And so I knew as a teenager that I was probably going to adopt when I became an adult. And sure enough, that is what I did. As I moved into adulthood, I was in my thirties. I adopted as a single mom and then about 18 months later got married. And so that's another conversation for another whole podcast. That was roller coaster ride. But I adopted my daughter through international adoption and she came home as a teenager.

3:17So we definitely lived a lot of the things that we talk about in the adoption world personally in our house. And so that's a little bit about me personally. Professionally, I'm a licensed clinical professional counselor. I'm a PhD. I specialize in attachment and trauma and I've been working for the last 20 years with families, helping adoptive families and children who are in foster care and just kind of that fabulous group of people work on becoming

3:52families. And so that's a little bit about my experience with adoption personally and professionally. Things that I enjoy outside of work, family time, I love to read and I love to walk. And so just spend a time outside and breathe in some fresh air sometimes are the things that regulate me on a regular basis. That's awesome. So quick side question. And I know you said this could be a whole nother episode and I think it should be. So do you feel like your background in trauma and attachment was helpful and impactful? I mean, when you

4:27adopted your daughter. Yeah. So I went into adoption with my eyes wide open. I was already specializing in trauma and attachment in a therapeutic career and had worked with foster and adoptive families prior to adopting. And so I knew going in what to expect. However, I don't think anything truly prepares you to walk it out. And so certainly I think that I had more experience and more education and more understanding than some adoptive families

5:03walk into it with. And I was still blindsided by many, many things. And so I think that that's just something to keep in mind that we as adoptive parents, no matter how well prepared you are going in, there will be bumps that you'll hit on the road or things that you did not see coming. And that is just the nature of, you know, every child who's experienced an adoption has a trauma history that they're bringing with them. And you cannot separate

5:35the trauma history from the child. So as they walk in your front door, whether they're coming in at three weeks old or 14 years old, they bring that with them and it's going to change your family. And you just have to be prepared for that. And there's no way to foresee what it's going to look like, even if you're a therapist who has written books on what to expect. So interesting. And you have written other books on what to expect. I have. Yeah. This is my, so this is my sixth book leveling up. And so I've written books

6:08on attachment and trauma and attach an attachment workbook for teens. And so definitely again, something that I understand and I have worked to help other people understand, but trying to help your own child understand it. Well, that's a different story. In practice, so different. Well, that's amazing. Thank you. All right, Elaine, we would love to hear about you too and your personal professional background and your hobbies, what you enjoy.

6:39Okay. Well, growing up, I have an adopted sister. My parents adopted trans racially back in 1970 when it wasn't a thing. So I grew up with a very loving, open family. I was diagnosed with a hormone disorder, which meant that I would have trouble getting pregnant. And so fairly early on in my husband and my dating relationship, I let him know that I

7:09was probably not going to be able to have biological children. He had no idea what I was talking about. He probably would have asked more questions had he knew, had he known what we were, our life was going to look like. So he and I have adopted four children. They're all young adults now ages 21 to 31. In my first career, I was a secondary education

7:39teacher. I taught biology, psychology, home economics, a number of different things. But when we returned from teaching overseas, I was looking for something else and I started working for an adoption agency. I thought, well, at least I know a little something about adoption and became an adoption professional, which I've been doing now for 12 years. But with my personal life on top of that, it's been quite thrilling. The interesting thing

8:19I think compared to Christina is that I adopted long ago enough that trauma and attachment weren't invented yet. And I didn't know so much of what we know now. And so as I found out, I had to do so many things over again. I think I was doing things well enough instinctively

8:49but I didn't know so much. And now in my work where I train and educate families that are preparing to become adoptive families and working with families who have already adopted, I just want to help them understand that they have this power to change the framework of their family and to understand a little bit more what they bring to the table and how

9:22they can respond instead of react and they can change the whole dynamic of what's going on in their home. So really helping families have healing and whole relationships has become a passion of mine. And what I like to do now, well, my husband and I have an empty nest and it feels very, very different. So I like my dogs a lot. I like to walk as well. I sing

9:53and play piano. I like to read. I like to get together with friends. I like to drink coffee. Those are the things that give me joy these days. I love it. And you said that you traveled overseas and you were teaching overseas. Where was that? My husband and I have lived seven years of our married life in East Africa, once in Djibouti, which is on the Horn of Africa and the other in Tanzania. So we were in Dar es Salaam.

10:23So interesting. And that was with your kids? Yes. Wow. Yeah. Oh, I bet that was fascinating. Yes, it was. What a great experience. Cool. All right. Well, I have really enjoyed reading this book leveling up that the two of you wrote. Can you tell me about how this book was born? How it came to be? Yeah. Sure. Well, I would love to tell you. So Christina and I met through some of the work that we do and she, I'm a little bit ahead of her in the timeline of our children.

11:02And as she was struggling with some things with her daughter growing up, I was ahead of her and she would say, you know, can you help me with this? Can you help me with this? And I'd say, yeah, well, this is what I did. This is how I helped with my children with some of their special needs. This is how I navigated this at the end of their high school. This is how we put some of these things into place with their launching or moving out. And we would look at each other and she'd say, you know, we really need to write a book.

11:33And I finally, I'm like, okay, you know, I don't know anything about it, but there is just a lack of resources and information for older kids. Most of the things, whether it's for children, even on the autism spectrum or any kind of disability or adoption, grief and loss, any kind of trauma and attachment, it's all geared toward when they first come into your family and they're small. And even when we work on support groups and we talk

12:06about different strategies, a lot of parents say, yeah, well, that will work when they're a baby, but what do I do now that they're a teenager? And I found myself saying the same things work even as a teenager. Now, like, yeah, but I can't hold my teen like a baby. No, but you can still have these connecting, attaching ways that you can bond with your

12:36teenager. And I was starting to realize with my own family that there are still connecting, attaching things that I could do and say with them as they were adulting. So how did we do that then as our children were moving out of our home? And so as we were talking about what pieces needed to be put into the book, we just talked through how can we help other

13:07parents understand these are the pieces of remaining connected, remaining attached at the same time that you're letting go and trying to encourage independence or interdependence. It's amazing. And I think that for me, having Elaine come alongside of me at that time when we were launching my daughter and we were going through, how do we stay connected even though we don't live in the same house anymore? Having somebody who was further along on the road really helped me to be able to navigate that time and to not feel like I was all alone

13:42and we were the only family who was going through this. And I think that that's one of the things that we hope for the book is that the experience that she and I have had that we can share that with other families to say, you're not alone. You're not walking this path alone. We're all on the path together. And so just having that feedback and that somebody to consult with was really, really helpful. So again, we just like to try to take all the things that we were consulting back and forth about and put them in the book so that people can feel like we're on the path with you. We are walking with you. Here

14:16were our ideas. These things worked. Some of these things didn't work. We put some of those things in the book too, but to feel like you're not alone. That's incredible. I think that's so impactful to have that kind of mentorship and friendship and these experiences that are less common that fewer people can relate to. Yeah, that's awesome. So what impact do you hope that this book will have on the adoption community? Well, I think that understanding the nuances of this, this special relationship that we

14:51have. So when kids have come out of a trauma background, which adoption by definition is centered around grief and loss. So many, many of them look at life through a lot of abandonment and rejection. So then when you're trying to launch them and you're saying, okay, go fly little birdie and I want you to go and do this and this. It's very hard for them

15:23to hear, go and do this and do this without them saying, well, then you don't love me anymore. You're trying to get rid of me. You're kicking me out of the house. And that's not what we're saying at all, but because of their own trauma rejection and abandonment lenses, that's what they hear. That's what they see. With one of my kids, it came to a time where

15:55for all of our sanity and for his, that we really had to say, I think we're at a point where you're not going to learn anymore if you stay in our home. And so we, and I framed it as compassionately and as helpfully and with all the supports that we could muster and found an apartment three blocks from our house, walking distance for laundry, community supports, all

16:27propping my child up. And for years you kicked me out. No. Do you remember what we said? That you weren't going to learn anymore in our house. And this was exciting for you. And we're right here. But it was so hard to hear it through without any other, any other throughout, you know, without any other voice attached to it. So I'm hoping that

17:06the book can help parents know how to frame things when they're talking to their child, first of all, because it would be very easy to get frustrated and say, you know what, I'm done. I got you the 18. You're out of here. And I hear a lot of parents say that. And that always makes me really sad because the work is not done. But on the other hand, I also hope that it helps adult adoptees whose parents have said that to them, to be able to go back to their parents and say,

17:37I really needed this from you. Can we keep working on our relationship? Because everybody needs family. Everybody needs a relationship. So as when Christine and I were talking about the book, we initially geared it toward the parents, but we said, you know, the kids need it too. We want to give the adult adoptees tools to go back to their adoptive families and say, I need this. I, this,

18:09this is what I was going through. And when you said those words, they were hurtful or I'm understanding now that I was really struggling with this. Can we have a do over or can, can we reconnect in this way? I'm not ready to be out alone all by myself. I still need you. Like now one of my, one of my children, my son is 30, almost 30 years old. And now he comes over once

18:40a week for dinner and he calls it our bonding time at age 30, whereas maybe 10 years ago, he didn't want to bond with us, but now he does. So, you know, you don't get done and that's good. That's awesome. Wow. Wow. So I love how you geared it toward both adult adoptees or adults who are transitioning into more independence and adulthood and adoptive parents as well.

19:10It's wonderful. All right. So a quote that I really loved from your book, this stood out to me as I started reading it was a caregiver teaches emotion regulation, but a child cannot emotionally regulate themselves. Instead, they co-regulate with the adult who is with them. I thought that that would just hit me. I was like, wow, that makes so much sense. And it just takes all these experiences I've had and really sends them through this lens where it makes so much sense. I loved it.

19:40So how do you feel that we can help children co-regulate their emotions in a more healthy way? Yeah, absolutely. And, and something, this is something that so many people don't understand. Even we as adults co-regulate with the people who we're in relationship with, right? So if my spouse comes home from work and he's a little grumpy, I might've been in the best mood before he walked in the door, but within a couple of minutes, I might find myself getting a little grumpy too, right? We, we co-regulate off of the people that we're with. And this is how children

20:12learn about emotion regulation. This is how they start developing it is they are in tune with, or they're paying really close attention to their adults. And, and so if I am frustrated with my child, my child is going to feel that and is going to respond with some frustration too. They're going to mirror my responses. And so, so what we have is a very quickly escalating situation where we're all irritated at the same time. And so, so what we want to do is actually we, as the adults

20:43want, and the parents want to be emotionally regulated, as emotionally regulated as we can be. And what that means is I need to find my cool, calm connectedness, collectedness and maintain it. Now, a couple of, of just notes. First of all, we have to understand as the parents, we have to understand our own emotion regulation, if we're going to be emotionally consistent. So what that means is I have to know my own emotions, what they are. I have to know how to express them

21:15appropriately. That like when I am frustrated with my child, yelling and screaming at them, is not necessarily going to be an appropriate way to express that emotion, especially because my child is watching and mimicking me. And so if I am yelling and screaming when I am frustrated, I cannot then be upset with them when they yell and scream when they're frustrated too. Right? So they're, they're watching and they're learning from us. And so, so I have to know what my emotions are. I have to be able to express them appropriately. And then I have to be able to calm myself down.

21:47And I think that it's important for us as parents to model that for our children. I think so often we say, well, I don't want my child to see me sad. Oh, I don't want my child to see me upset or, or parents. And I say this all the time to parents, parents, it is okay to argue in front of your children. Do not go into the bedroom and shut the door. Because what you're actually showing them is that what they're going to end up doing is leaving your home with no conflict resolution skills. Now that also doesn't mean that we, as parents, like screaming yell at each other over the dining table. What that means is that we find our emotion regulation and we model

22:22appropriate conflict resolution. Yes. Mom's dad's parents do not always agree on everything and that's okay. And so we model, I'm a little frustrated right now. I'm going to go outside and take a walk or, you know, I'm a little sad right now. I just got a call from grandma. She's not feeling well. And so I'm a little sad. Can I give you a hug or I'm going to give the dog a hug or I'm going to go fix the cup of coffee. So it's important for our children to see us in everyday life, walking out emotional expression and emotional regulation, because that's how they're

22:55going to learn how to do it. And, and so, so don't hide your emotions from your children, show your emotions in front of your children, but show them appropriately so that they can learn how to do it appropriately too. And, and the most important thing is that when our child is dysregulated, we as the parent have to stay regulated, my cool calm connected collectedness. So, so that means that I have to know what calms me down. So if my child is tantrum mean, and I become, and let's be honest, well, 15, 17, 12, no, 19 year olds tantrum,

23:31just looks a little bit different. But if my child is tantrum mean, I cannot then escalate in my response because they're going to regulate off of me. And they're going to start to escalate too. If I can stay cool, calm collected, they can find their cool calm collected off of me when they're dysregulated. So, so that's another way that we can help our children to emotionally regulate is by, by being the cool, calm collected person that they can regulate off of that's important. I love that. That makes so much sense.

24:01It's so simple. If we, it's a little harder to walk out easier said than done. Yeah, that's amazing. So another quote from your book that I really loved was that it's not enough for a child to be safe, but they also need to feel safe. Yeah, because there's a difference between actual safety and felt safety for a lot of our kiddos, when they came into our homes, if they came through foster care, or if they came through an overseas orphanage setting, then they may have experienced some abuse and some neglect. Now,

24:35when they walk into our home, they may actually be safe, but do they feel safe? And when we say, you know, the difference between actually being safe and feeling safe, feeling safe has a lot to do with, and some of you may be familiar with like Bessel van der Kolk, and the body keeps the score. The body remembers that it's safe, and the body remembers traumatic experiences, the senses record traumatic experiences into our brain

25:05and neural pathways. And so, so my child may physically be safe in my home, but may not feel safe, because they're still feeling triggered when they hear something or see something or smell something that takes them back to a place of a traumatic experience or memory. And so we as as parents can help our children to feel safe. And whether your child is five or 15 or 25, it's still the same. We help our children to feel safe by being emotionally consistent,

25:38which is what we were just talking about. So I need to be a safe adult. I should not be yelling and screaming. And that triggers a lot of our children back to back to not feeling safe. So we want to be emotionally regulated with our children to be safe adults for them. But then we also want to meet needs. So a big part of that is making sure that their needs are met. And so that might mean have, you know, for school age children, when they come home from school, having a snack ready for them and being ready to help them with their homework, because we know that they need those

26:11things from us. And so when we're consistently showing up and consistently saying I'm going to take care of your needs, children then feel like they can trust us and kind of rest in a relationship with us that helps them to feel safe. And for our 25 year old, sometimes meeting needs looks a little different. And that's one of the things that we talk about in the book is how do we meet our children's needs as adults? Because so often they want to be independent, they want to meet their own needs, they want to take care of their own things. And we want to encourage that too. But

26:43but it might look like if our kiddo is struggling financially, we show up with a bag of groceries. Or it might look like, you know, if our child is a single parent, that we show up and ask if we can help with some babysitting or offer to take kiddo for a long weekend. And, you know, and give our adult child a little bit of a break. And so meeting needs into young adulthood can start to look a little different. We just have to be in tune with our children in order to understand what it is

27:14that their need is so that we can meet it. Awesome, great thoughts. So in your book, you have a whole chapter where you talk about parenting adoptees in their 20s. So I'm curious, what are some of the ways that you would recommend that adoptive parents can support adoptees in this lifelong search that really, I feel like takes off in your 20s searching for your identity and trying to figure out yourself, find your birth family if you've had a closed adoption, etc. Well, I think it's, we often say when kids are little that we have a tendency to go one way or

27:52the other where we increase structure and we decrease nurture, or we increase nurture and we decrease structure, whichever way that was. But the best thing is when you're increasing structure, more rules, regulations, boundaries, you also increase nurture. That's the best way not to disappear, but keep the boundaries up. And in the same way, that is a great way to think about

28:24helping your child through the 20s. So let's say that they're going to do a birth family search. You know, as the adult, that this might go completely pear-shaped. This might not actually be the way that they have in their head as the fantasy family. They might not have come from royalty that you have kept them from all these years. You know, it could be really actually quite

28:55quite hurtful. So you are going to be increased nurture, the soft place, the listening place, the one that's ready, you've been working and walking with them and consistent and soft and kind. But also the increased structure of not allowing them to take out angry feelings on you,

29:26maybe putting some boundaries around it, making sure that they're safe. Like you're not going to go meet them in a dark alley in the middle of the night. Like how about if you want to meet your family, they will come to our house so we can all meet them together. Don't make them go alone. That's a way of keeping the structure up too. So I think one of the things for the 20s is they're kind of going through this stuff is to think about what are ways that we can keep our structure and

29:59our nurture up. I think the other thing to remember, and this is really hard for parents, but it's not about you. So often we want to make it about ourselves, but this is their life journey and they might fall flat face. They might choose a bad mate. They might decide that they're going to invest in cryptocurrency. They might, I don't know, I don't even know what that is. But it's their

30:31journey and you have to, and Christina and I have this conversation all the time. Okay, what's the worst that can happen? Like, okay, this is going to be their choice and we're going to just let it play out and we're just going to be here. And so there's a lot of that that happens in the 20s too. The 20s are a huge decade and from the time that they're 20 to the time that they're 30,

31:03so much maturation happens. So many decisions happen. There's, but you can just be there and let it play out. I think that one of the things that I talk to parents a lot about is that this is their path. And we as parents, all parents, whether you're a biological parent or an adopted parent, like we all have dreams for our children. We all have thoughts about what their life is going to look like. They put on that fireman hat at age seven and we are like, oh,

31:35they are going to be a fireman. We need to like put some things in place and start sending them in that direction now, right? And so we all, and that's healthy. That's good for parents to do. We want to dream for our children. But I think that once they turn 18, there's this shift that happens where we've been holding the dreams and they've started to dream for themselves, but we really need to hand the dreams over because this is their path. This is their life. They get to make the choices. These are their dreams. And so my dreams may not be realized and that's okay because it's not my life. I got to make the choices for my own life. They get to make

32:09the choices for theirs. And so my role as a parent turns to supporting walking beside them on the path so that they know they're not walking alone. Sometimes I'm running from behind just to keep up, but it's not my job to lead. It's my job to walk beside and to say, I'm here for you if you want to talk about it. I'm here for you if it's been a hard day, but they're out there on their own, making their own choices. And as sad as I might be about some of the choices, because I know that

32:40they might be choosing something that's hard for them or that might not end the way they thought that it would, I have to, coming back to our emotion regulation, I have to emotionally regulate myself because like Elaine said, it's not about me, about them. And so my role is to be supportive, not lead the way anymore. And if I could add one more thing, in the book, I capitalize on the seven core issues of adoption in the twenties. We, again, talk about these things when we're young

33:12or first adoptive families, and we talk about the seven core issues of adoption, which are so helpful. Well, what people don't realize is that those core issues roll over and over with each developmental stage. And the twenties are a huge developmental stage. So you're going to see these things rolling over again in the twenties, grief, loss, intimacy, mastery control, self-esteem, just all of these things and helping your child. And this is when the book really started being for adult adoptees,

33:48for them to understand themselves. Like this is normal. This is okay that I'm struggling with this part of my life. This is part of me doing the work of being an adoptee and coming to terms with, oh, this might be why I struggle with wanting to be in control of everything. And I don't have to. I know where that comes from now and I can release my grip on that. So I think that's another helpful

34:18thing that comes out of the book, understanding why that might be rolling over and over in the twenties. That's wonderful. Thank you guys. So can you explain to some of our listeners what TBRI is and how it relates to supporting adoptees? I sure can. So TBRI is Trust-Based Relational Intervention. I'm a TBRI practitioner and a lot of people in the adoption world may be familiar with Karen Purvis and her work over the last 25 years with adoptees and children in foster care and children who come

34:55from traumatic backgrounds. And so when we think about what our children have experienced, we think about the fact that every child who has come into a family through adoption has had at least an attachment trauma. The adoption itself is an attachment trauma. And that impacts our children's ability to trust in relationship, to feel safe in a relationship, to feel like they can rest in relationship. And then on top of that, some of our children also

35:25come into our homes with other types of trauma from abuse or neglect or witnessing violence, you know, medical trauma, some of them. And so when we are raising children who have experienced trauma, again, TBRI kind of comes back to how do we build trust-based relationships with our children? How do we help them to trust us as safe adults for children who have come out of a foster care environment or an institutionalized setting in a different country? They may have experienced

36:02adults who were not safe people. And the thing to remember as it relates to children and trauma, is children do not yet have any contact for their environment or their belief systems. And so everything that happens in the life of a child is foundational to the development of their belief system. So when their first experience with adults is that they're not safe people for a variety of reasons, then that kind of starts to build their belief system, their foundational beliefs about who adults are. And they then start to see all adults

36:36through that lens. So now, you know, my kiddo came home at the age of 14, for 14 years, she had had adults who were not safe people. So even though at 14, I'm a safe person and I say, you know, like, I love you and I'm going to take care of you. And well, she doesn't know what that means. And so I have to establish a trust-based relationship with her. And it is an uphill battle every single day because she has foundational beliefs and a worldview and a context of how adults can't be trusted and that they're not safe. So I have a lot of proving to do. And that's

37:08not a reflection on me as a parent. That's a reflection on her, you know, her trauma history and the fact that I love her. And so TBRI comes alongside adoptive families and really helps us to understand why our children are having a hard time following directions, being respectful, trusting us as their parents, being open and vulnerable with us emotionally, and helps us to kind of have a framework for understanding that and then gives us the tools to build that trust-based relationship. And the three principles that it focuses on is connecting,

37:43so ways that we can connect with our child and stay in healthy relationship with them, help them to trust us, empowering our children, so meeting their needs and helping them figure out what they need and how to ask for it using the tools that we have. And so that's the first principle is using their voice. And then the third principle is correcting, because sometimes we need to correct our kids. Well, let's be honest. We often correct our children a lot. And so not sometimes. A lot of the times, we're correcting our kids and when we go back to those

38:15seven core issues that Elaine was just talking about that are in all adoptions, one of those core issues is rejection. And Elaine talked about that a little bit earlier in our podcast is just that our children feel rejected even if we're not rejecting them, but that is part of their foundational belief system because of that broken attachment with biological family and that very first attachment trauma. And so how do we correct our children without them feeling rejected,

38:47without them feeling that we are disappointed in them and upset with them and that we don't like them anymore? How do we stay connected while we're correcting? So those are the principles that TBRI kind of brings to us as adoptive families and a lot of times it is focused more on the younger child, but I worked with the TBRI people to go ahead and walk that out into the young adult years. So they approved of the chapter that we put in the book about TBRI and young adulthood and so we

39:20kind of walked that out. What does it look like to stay connected to our children into adulthood? And it gets a little creative like some of the things we talk about are like sending a weekly text message that just says I'm thinking about you or empowering them. You know we talked a couple minutes ago about how to meet our children's needs in adulthood. It looks a little bit different staying in tune with them so that we know what they need. Listening to them as they're talking about this was really hard, this week has been really hard, I've had to work a lot of overtime. Oh okay and so I might have a little idea pop up in my head that says how about if I order a pizza

39:53and have it delivered to their house tonight. So empowering them, connecting to them and then sometimes we do have to correct our kids. Elaine was saying a couple minutes ago sometimes our kids if they're going through something difficult we'll take it out on us and we'll because we are their safe place we can become where they go with these really big emotions and sometimes we do have to put boundaries into place and sometimes we do have to say I know that you are so upset but you can't talk to me in that way, you can't scream and yell at me, you can't curse at me. I don't

40:27appreciate that, that doesn't help our relationship and so we sometimes have to put those boundaries into place and correct even our adult children and so how do we continue to do that in ways that preserve the relationship that we've been working so many years to establish. So that's kind of how TBRi can help us as adoptive parents and again it's talked about so much with younger children, it can be applicable for our young adults too, we just continue to walk it out. I feel like we could talk about so many of these different subjects for an entire hour.

41:01I wish we could. Yeah, yeah that's so interesting. Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. All right so do you have any advice for adopted parents who are trying to teach independent living skills to their children as they're transitioning into adulthood? Keep the bar low. I think, I really do think sometimes that we expect a certain level of quality before we can let a child move out and I've learned that it probably doesn't have to be that high.

41:36Can they boil water? You know how much stuff can be made with boiled water. You can cook spaghetti, you can hard boil eggs, you know you can make tea, coffee, you know it's pretty good. Cleanliness is next to godliness but you know you can, can they do a load of laundry? I mean I think I think some things, basics that I've kind of like, do you know how to wash dishes?

42:08Do you know how to do a load of laundry? Make a bed. I mean even if it's not like hospital corners can they at least get a fitted sheet on and a cover on top? That's pretty good. This, this, we set ourselves up for disappointment by having a standard really, really high. And I would just say to some, to parents just lower the bar, lower the bar. Would you agree with me

42:41Christina? I would, I would and I would even say starting to teach independent living skills now wherever you are. If your child is five, if your child is seven, if they are 15, start pulling them in to the things that you're doing. And, and so that is an attachment-based intervention anyhow. Like if we are trying to build attachment-based relationships with our children and, and have them be connected to us then if I'm making dinner I'm gonna pull my kiddo into making dinner.

43:11And that's gonna give us quality time together where I can ask them how their day has been but it's also gonna be me teaching them an independent living skill. Whatever I'm making for dinner at night they're gonna learn how to make. Same thing with folding laundry. If I am folding laundry, I'll do it in front of the TV and I'll, I'll invite my kiddo to fold with me and we'll fold it together. So wherever you are in life, whatever you're doing, invite your child along because the skills that you are doing at this moment are probably independent living skills. And by modeling

43:42them and inviting them to join you're building attachment but you're also teaching independent living skills. In our book we have a whole list of things that, that you want to make sure your kiddo can do before they leave home. And so sometimes just looking over that list and then thinking about like what's one thing that I could look work on this week. You know again setting, setting goals that are small and manageable. But you know certainly like first aid, like if you get a cut what do you do with it kind of thing. But, but I agree with what Elaine said. Like is that in

44:16the bar low because a lot of our kiddos struggle to, struggle to, to feel like they're ready for independence. So we as parents encouraging them that they're, that they're ready, that they're, that they're getting there can sometimes empower them to feel like they're ready for it too. All right. So when children grow up and become adults, it can be really hard sometimes for parents to continue to support them and keep these conversations going. I love all of these advice, these bits of advice and tips that you've given. I feel like this is really valuable. Do you have

44:47any other thoughts on working through this, helping children in this transition especially as they might be transitioning into adulthood but also struggling with mental health or disabilities or different struggles? How can we help? So I think it's important to start early. Especially when it comes to mental health. If we have kiddos who were recognizing in their teen years that they are struggling, be proactive about trying to get some supports into place,

45:17whether that's therapy or medication, whatever the case might be, just to get them into a routine, to let them know that it's okay to ask for help. I think that that is something that we as a society have failed on is that a lot of times we communicate to all of our children that we want them to be independent and self-sufficient and that it's not okay to ask for help. I think that for adoptees especially, we need to emphasize it is okay to ask for help. If you are struggling, it's okay to

45:48let somebody know that you're struggling. In doing that, we then as their parents want to be their safe space to land like Elaine has said earlier. We want to be the place that they can come to when life is hard because let's be honest, life is going to be hard. It's not candy-coated. Life is going to be hard. If we can be their safe spot to come to that helps them with problem solving or brainstorming ideas or considering pros and cons of a decision they're getting ready

46:18to make or just a place of comfort when life is a hard place. If we can establish ourselves as that, that can help our kiddos to feel a little bit more stable even if their life tends to be a little upside down and backwards. So definitely getting services into place early to kind of normalize that some of us need services and then creating a safe space for our kids to be able to talk about the things that are important to them. Being available, just keeping the conversation going,

46:52keeping the door of communication open. I think a lot of times during the teen years, a lot of times we have attachment ruptures, every family, because the teen years are hard as our kids are striving for independence and we might feel like they're not quite ready for it all yet and so we pull back the reins and they're trying to strain against the reins and the next thing you know you've got an attachment rupture and your kid is screaming that they hate you. So trying to power share with our children, not power struggle, during those teen years, giving them the ability

47:26to make age-appropriate decisions and if they make a mistake, guess what? We all do. So not shaming and blaming them but helping them figure out how to come back from a poor choice that had some consequences, helping them to figure out how to bounce back from that and then just being, again, that soft place to land for them helps us as parents to move from a parenting role into almost a consultant role in the young adult years where they don't have to come back to

47:58us to ask permission. My 22 year old does not have to ask my permission for anything but what a privilege it is when she comes back and wants my opinion on something or wants to talk to me about something or get my input on something. That only happens if we have not power struggled and had an attachment rupture but have instead power shared. So that's a privilege. And I'm sure we all have to have power to do that. I think that's the biggest thing that I want to encourage our kids to do is to be a part of the conversation about power shared and

48:30and move into a consultant role where our kids feel like they can come back to us at those hard times. Amazing. Thank you. Just to wrap up, I would love to hear what each of your biggest takeaways were from this book, from writing it, what your biggest piece of advice would be to quote Elaine. I know we said at the beginning one of the reasons we wrote this book is because Elaine was further along the path than I was and I kept going to her and saying what did you do about this? What did you do about that? She gave me two pieces of advice that I cling to today. One

49:03of them is do you want to be right or do you want to have a relationship? I think that's important. We were just talking a minute ago about power struggling with our kids and attachment ruptures. And we could say like no, this is the right way to do it. Do I want to be right or do I want to have a relationship? If I'm emphasizing relationship and focusing on relationship, then I don't always need to be right. And the other thing that she has said, which has and it's in the book, but but it really holds with me most days is own what's yours to own and nothing else. And so we as

49:38parents, we own things. I own being a parent and I own the things that I say and the choices that I make, but I don't own my child's choices and I don't own their path. And so being able to separate that has helped me in a very real self-care way to not feel overwhelmed and hopeless or helpless as I watch my kiddo growing up and making their choices. I own what's mine to own and keep working on that. None of us have arrived. There's no perfect parent. We are all

50:14in the process of learning and I own that too. I am still evolving as a parent. Oh, that's amazing. So great. I'm not done yet. Yeah, I think for me and this is another line, I guess maybe my next book should be like things Elaine says, I don't know, but another thing I say, and this is one that means a lot to me is that now is not forever. And sometimes when things have been very dark or hard or, you know,

50:52we weren't getting it or is that doesn't mean it's going to last forever. And just because, you know, like I just think, is this it? Are they, they're never going to grow up. They're never going to leave home and I'm going to be stuck or they're going to be stuck or, you know, what is this going to, you know, but now is not forever. And so, yeah, that's just what I hold on to and I would encourage adult adoptees with that. I'd encourage adoptive parents with that.

51:24Professionals with that, you know, that there's hope, there's hope. Beautiful. Thank you both so much for taking the time to talk to us today and for sharing all of your insights in this book. I'm really excited to share it on the podcast. Thank you both. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye.

51:57Well, we want to give our most sincere thanks to both Dr. Christina Reese and Elaine Schenck. Again, leveling up adoptive parents and adult adoptees, taking your relationship to the next level comes out on October 20th, 2022. Check out the show notes for links to where you could buy this on both Amazon and Barnes and Noble. We're so happy to promote this book and others like it that really help us as an adoption community learn, become more educated and at the end of the day,

52:31provide the best experience we can to adoptees. They deserve it. They deserve our very best and the more knowledge that we can acquire to help them to support them, uh, the better. So again, thanks. Thanks to Christina and Elaine. We're so appreciative that we could connect with you. We hope that your book does really well and that it's able to change the lives and touch the lives of many. Thanks to each of you for being a listener to the open adoption project. We love putting the

53:02podcast together for you. We feel so enriched and just love being able to share with you and learn with you. We would love to connect with you. You can connect with us on Instagram at open adoption project, or you can find us on our website at open adoption project.org. Thanks for listening to this episode of the open adoption project.

53:52Okay.

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