Burgandy | “Courage to Say Yes”

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project, we're the Nelsons, I'm Sean, and in this episode my wife Lynette will have a conversation with Burgundy. I loved listening to this conversation after the fact Burgundy is a mother of six, three adopted children and three biological children. In this episode you'll hear her share her story about how her three sons joined their family. Burgundy shares about having different levels of openness in her adoptions, also talks about

0:30some of the blessings and challenges that come with being a parent of children with special needs. We really hope you'll enjoy this episode with Burgundy. Alright we are on the podcast now with Burgundy, thanks for being with us. I'm so happy to be here and talk about our adoption story, it's exciting. Thank you, we're so glad you're here. Alright so let's start off and just have you share your story.

1:01Yeah so my husband and I, when we got married it was kind of funny, he always knew he would have three girls and I always knew I'd have three boys, but we weren't going to have six kids, so how was that going to work out? We didn't know for sure. So we did have three girls, we have three biological daughters, and then I just started feeling like where's this boy, where I know I'm supposed to have boys, where are they? And at the time it didn't occur to me, oh you can adopt children, it just didn't come

1:31into my mind. So after when our oldest, well when our youngest of our girls was six, I started really thinking about it more and more and more, and we were actually living in California with the military at the time, and I just, it's a hard thing to start a conversation with your spouse about that because he was very happy with his three girls, of course he was, and so we just started

2:02investigating and his main hang up about adopting, or especially adopting a baby in particular, was the birth parents. He was worried about would they try to take the baby away, you know, just all the old misconceptions about adoption. So we decided to do some trainings with an adoption agency there, and we went to a training with birth parents, with some birth moms, and after that he really saw that these women

2:33just wanted lives, good lives for their children. They didn't want to take the children away, they just wanted the kids to have good lives. So then he was softened to the idea. So at that point, we decided we would proceed with this private adoption agency, and nothing happened for a really long time, probably about a year, and also back up previous to that we had been foster parents, and we had ironically been foster parents specializing

3:04in teen moms, or pregnant teens in custody. So he had already kind of seen that world a little bit. So at the time we had friends who didn't want to adopt privately but wanted to adopt publicly through the foster care system, and they said, well, why don't you do both? Because you can. You can be registered with one agency, and you can also be a foster parent at the same time. That's funny. So we did that. And then we waited, and we waited, and we waited, and I finally gave up, because that's

3:37the difference with adoption versus pregnancy. Pregnancy you have a lot of aches and pains, doctor's appointments, things like that. It's physical pain. With adoption, it's emotional pain. Because you think, am I ever going to find this child? Is anyone ever going to choose us? What's wrong with us because no one's choosing us? How do we need to change to be better? So you have all those emotions all the time. So finally, I just kind of have, and I never, this is back in the day before cell phones.

4:08So we had our answering machine. So I never wanted to be away from the phone ever. But I finally just get over the Thanksgiving break. I said, I have to get out of the house. And it had been a year. This is no quality of life. So I left, I came back, and of course, what happened? I had a call from social services that said, can you get to the hospital by 2? And it was 1.15. We have an infant that we'd like to place with you.

4:38But you have to call us by 2 because I guess they've been trying to get ahold of us all day, tried my husband. If you don't call us by 2, then we're moving on. So called him back, raced up to the hospital. And that was our first adoption, our little, our Sam. And he was wonderful and perfect. And at the time, his mother gave birth saying I wanted to place him. She wanted to place him. But then she changed her mind. And so we knew going into it that it was a foster placement that could turn into adoption.

5:09And we had to agree to that, like, there could be a reunification. And we did. That's how we got our first child. And we didn't even necessarily want a baby. I did because I had a six-year-old and I was hoping for maybe a four-year-old, five-year-old, even six-year-old could just kind of fit in. I didn't want to start over. But we started over. So I literally we left the hospital. I drove home with the baby. My husband drove to Target, bought everything, and we came home. So it was an amazing, miraculous story.

5:41So probably let's see, that was in 2005. So then in two and I had my adoption or my boy need satiated for a while. But then probably around 2009, I started feeling the percolation again. You just start feeling it. Someone's missing. What should I do? I don't know. Why am I not satisfied? I have four children. I should be happy. But it just something in you is telling you, no, keep, you know, find some more children

6:13or another child. So one day I was watching a inspirational video about Father's Day. And the father was telling his story about having difficulties having children as well and everything. And ultimately, in the story, the child that they had had Down syndrome. And clear as anything, God told me with words that I heard, you will have a son with Down syndrome. And I kind of looked around and went, no, I think you're wrong.

6:45I can't have children. It was really completely out of the blue and completely unexpected. So then that kind of sat on my heart from at least, let's see, that was 2009 for at least 18 months, maybe a little less than that. I finally asked my husband, I finally brought it up to him and said, hey, what do you think about adopting again? And he said, OK, you know, we can look into that. And I said, how do you feel about adopting a child with Down syndrome?

7:17And he, it was the same reaction I had, like, this is coming out of the blue. I never even thought we don't know. At this point, we had not known anyone with disabilities in our family, no one with Down syndrome specifically. But I said, I think we need to just move forward and see what happens. So we did. So we moved forward. And at the time, we were registered with another private agency, but they told us that they

7:47don't really like, they like to place only with their birth moms within the state. They don't really like to have you have a home study and you bring in another person. They don't like to do that. But they said they would work with us. A very, very long story short, we eventually after after even at one point saying no to a placement of two boys. Because we just so so I started thinking maybe it's not Down syndrome, maybe it's just kids

8:19in foster care who have special needs. Maybe it's not that specific. Maybe I was crazy. Why did I think that? So we started sending out home studies to foster care agencies and everything and nothing was sticking. Nothing was sticking. And then finally, we were we were talking seriously with the caseworker from Oregon. And it was going really well. And I thought, well, that's three boys, because it was it was brothers. So I thought that this has got to be it.

8:49These are the two boys were moving forward. And I was going to get my driver's license and I turned into the parking lot and the same voice. God told me again with audit with an audible voice. If the caseworker presents or if the boys from Idaho are presented, say no. And I thought, whoa, that's kind of weird. And as I pulled into the parking spot, the caseworker called and asked us to take the boys. And of course, I told him, yes, because why would you listen to some random voice you

9:23think is God? It was. But I thought this is crazy. But as soon as I said yes, I felt horrible. I went home. I told my husband what happened. I said, I think I've made a wrong decision. It didn't sit right. And that's a weird thing in adoption. You're trying so hard to find these kids. And when you're presented with some and you don't feel right about it, you have to go with that feeling. You have to even though it's perfect, perfect situation, tied in a bow.

9:55If it's not right, you have to go with that because your best is coming and you just have to have faith and you just have to keep moving. So I called the caseworker back the next day and I said, I'm sorry, I've made a mistake. Then I absolutely was devastated because I thought and this had probably been about a year ago. I was devastated because I thought I'm never going to find this specific boy with Down Syndrome. Never going to find him. So I gave up. I decided to go to graduate school.

10:25I decided to heck with this. This is craziness anyway. So I just gave up. So my husband and I were members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So we're Christian. So we were attending our temple and I was just trying to get some spiritual clarity about this whole situation, some peace to move forward in a different direction. And as we're getting ready to leave, all of a sudden this man walks in front of me and he has Down Syndrome. I start bawling and look at my husband.

10:56He thinks I'm crazy. But I knew don't give up. It wasn't immediate, but we did end up adopting a little boy with Down Syndrome. And let's see, we got the call in August. No, he was born in August 2011. We got the call probably in December, I think. And then we picked him up in February. Baby, he was six months old. So now I have three girls, all two years apart, then six years, then Sam, then six years,

11:31then Ahon, then our little guy with Down Syndrome. And from the time we got him, we knew. His birth parents knew. For example, my 15-year-old daughter, who's from Utah, became obsessed with Indian culture in Bollywood, specifically obsessed, obsessed. She talked about it. She does all the movies she watched. And so when this little guy, Ahon, the potential to adopt him, when we had that offer, I thought

12:02if we don't get this child, it's going to devastate her. So we didn't tell her that he was Indian at first. But then when we were having our first phone call with his birth parents, they were getting to know us. We were asking each other questions. And they said, Madison, how is it that you became interested in Bollywood and Indian culture? And Ahon's mom said, who are your four favorite actors? So she names off her four favorite actors. And then there's silence on the line. And we thought, oh, we've said something wrong.

12:33We didn't want to offend anyone, because they're Indian from India. I probably should have mentioned that. They are Indian. They started laughing. And they said, that is Ahon's birth dad. That is those are his four favorite actors. So we knew. We were like, that's it. And at the same time, we found out later, the reason Ahon was six months old when they placed him is because they had tried to place him with three other families. And every time they tried to place him, they were stopped.

13:03The paperwork didn't go through. It blocked, blocked, blocked. And they were getting panicking, like, why can't we find this family? So it was all meant to be. We just had to find the road. So we get our Ahon. And then I'm incredibly happy because I've been wanting this child forever. So that was a so the first adoption was public through foster care, second adoption private. Well, then we get our little Ahon and he started having a lot of major medical conditions for

13:33three years. I mean, he had to be resuscitated three different times, like died, had been resuscitated, severe medical complications. And all of them were not related to having Down syndrome. He was premature at birth. So all related to that. So it was a very, very hard time. So then there when he was three, we started to have a glimmer of normalcy with his health where he wasn't critical all the time. He still had his challenges and we still were doing a lot of therapies and things like that,

14:06but he wasn't critical. And so once again, I just started feeling this pull of we're going to adopt another child with Down syndrome. And I thought, how can I possibly there's no way I can do this emotionally. I didn't know how we could do it with time because we were always at the hospital. We had spent just about every holiday at the hospital with Ahon. It was horrible.

14:37So this excuse me. So this went on for probably probably about a year again, just under 18 months. And I finally asked my husband again, hey, how do you feel about this? And he this time was really conflicted because he didn't understand why that would be the answer. Why we would need to do that when we have a critically ill child. I said, I don't know. I can't figure it out myself, but let's just go with it.

15:10And he said, OK, so through much prayer, much fasting, much research, much thinking. OK, so we said, minimally, we'll just renew our home study. Let's just do that. So we went back to that same private agency and they said, no, we're just not doing that anymore. How we got Ahon. We're not doing it anymore. So I had to get a new agency. So we we we start researching, we start doing we get our home study, we get a special needs

15:41home study and we just kind of let it sit. I wasn't actively sending it out. Nothing. We just let it sit. And one, this it was over Christmas again. It was like Thanksgiving, actually, this time. Excuse me. We were registered at the time with the National Down Syndrome Adoption Network, which is a foundation out of Ohio where birth parents can come and they have a database of adopted parents.

16:11You can go through home studies, also the foster care system. That's how they find adoptive parents for specifically children with Down syndrome. So because we had already been registered with them, I was on watching all their blogs and everything like that. So one blog came up one day of this cute little boy from he was originally born in Bulgaria. He was brought to the States by an adoptive family. But then that that adoption was being dissolved. They were no longer able to care for him. Excuse me. And he was being placed for adoption.

16:41And when I first saw him, I thought, oh, he's so cute. Thank you, little guy. That was it. Close the screen like that was it. I had no feelings at all. Keep going forward. So then in December, I see him that same blog lists him again. That same voice in my mind said, send in your home study or send in your paperwork, send in your paperwork. So I send in my paperwork and I really didn't expect anything to happen. I just and I didn't I didn't have this overwhelming burning feeling like I had with the other

17:14two. I just send in my paperwork, send my paperwork. So then time goes on and I thought, I really have to come to emotional and spiritual terms with what's happening. Because I don't know that I really can take another child with Down syndrome. Who knows what their health will be, what they will be like, who knows? And so I remember one night I was praying and I just said to God, I said, if you want me to take another child with Down syndrome, I will.

17:46But you have to heal Ahon. You have to make him well. You don't have to take away Down syndrome. You don't have to take away cerebral palsy. At this time, you had a G tube. You don't have to take that away. You don't have to take any of that. I need him to not be in the hospital. I need his health to be good enough that I can care for someone else. And from the day of that prayer for three years, actually for six years, he just had his first fever this last spring in six years. He has not even had a sniffle.

18:16He went through COVID. He went through everything with not a sniffle. So I said that prayer and we decided, you know, we're just going to just give it over to God and let him do it. So we get a call, of course, from the agency and they said, we would like to match you with this little guy named Steph Co. And it was funny because this whole time with him, I had this feeling we were going to adopt an international child.

18:46But I thought there's absolutely no way that this can happen because I cannot, I don't want to spend $50,000. I don't even know how to begin researching countries. I can't leave a Han. I have other little children. They weren't little, but they were all teenagers. They can't leave everybody to go. How's this going to happen? So that was in the back of my mind, but not concerning me, but in the back of my mind. So then when we did get matched with him, we found out he was from Bulgaria.

19:18And I said, well, there it is. He is an international kid born for six years. He lived in Bulgaria, three years. He lived in New York state and now he's with us and getting Steph Co. And Steph Co. It's kind of an interesting name. People always ask me, what is Steph Co? And I said, well, in Bulgaria, his birth name is Steven and Steph Co. is the pet name. So you would have your William and Billy, Thomas and Tommy, Stephen and Steph Co. So he's kind of like the Billy, right?

19:48That's Steph Co. Steph Co. since we got him is the most loving, most wonderful, kindest, most obedient. He takes care of himself completely, right? He dresses himself. He does everything he has. He is the healthiest of our entire family. He has no health problems. This child is a miracle and he's exactly what I needed him to be. I needed him to be someone we could love. We could care for someone who could love us.

20:20But I couldn't do medically fragile because with Ahon, we were still dealing with all of his therapies, special schools, all of this, but it was fine because Steph Co. just slid right in there. He goes to school with his typical peers and he's this amazing child. So, when I look back on our adoption story, the main thing I think is God will tell you what you need to do.

20:50You just have to have the courage and the faith to trust what he says. And as I talk to more adoptive parents, the more parents I talk to, I realize it's the same thing with them. You have to know that God will send you your best. And you can't even imagine how good it's going to be because we tend to think small and God thinks huge. He thinks the world. So he knew this whole time that Samuel was going to come to us and I had to wait.

21:22And the beautiful thing about hindsight is all this time I was impatient for Samuel to come, our first adoption, he was literally in his mother's stomach. He was gestating. So me trying to hurry him up was not good. God knew he was doing that. And so then with our second one, it was the same thing. Also he had not been born yet for part of that 18 months. But also the parents had to change and be willing to accept a family like ours.

21:57Because at first we were not their top pick. But then eventually the foundation felt comfortable showing them our home study and they picked us. So we had to wait for them. And then with Stephco, it's the same thing. God knew that Stephco is this amazing, wonderful child who will fit perfectly into our family. And I just had to have the courage to say yes when it was time. So that's the thing that I've learned with all of my children, but especially my adopted

22:28kiddos, is if adoption is something that is in your heart, if you feel this desire, just know that is what you're supposed to do. Be brave, be courageous, and know that it will work out. And it may take years. I mean, from our first adoption to our last adoption was what? 12, 15 years. This was a 15-year process, right? And we kept saying, oh, take another one, take another one. It was a 15-year process. It could take a really long time.

22:59It's going to be emotionally exhausting. But now that I'm on the other side, it has changed me as a person in ways that are just, I mean, divine. I would not be the same person had I not had to go through that challenge of finding my three boys in all these different ways. I would not be the same person. Our family would not be the same. So if you're feeling that, you have to just get on that roller coaster and ride it and know it's going to be the best thing that you ever did.

23:29So that's kind of our miraculous, miraculous made short. I love it. Wow. Thank you for sharing. A quick question. How old was Steph Co. when he came to your home? Oh, he was nine. So it was that's kind of a little funny story, too. So we got we got a haunted six months. And two quick things about that. If you already have children, your children will know you're going to adopt, even though you don't tell them they have the same feeling in their heart.

23:59So our Samuel when he was five and he was getting ready to go to kindergarten, he got a little stuff there and he called it his brother bear. And he took brother bear everywhere, literally everywhere. When we went to kindergarten, brother bears in a stroller with him to kindergarten. He knew he was getting a baby brother, but we hadn't told him we were trying to adopt yet or that we were thinking about it. So then the same thing happened with Steph Co. So Sam said to me one day, he said, you know, I really wish I had a brother, not a brother that's 10, not a brother that's eight.

24:30I want a brother that's nine. And I said, I said, do you buddy, if we adopt again, you want a brother that's nine. He said, I want a brother that's nine, not 10, not eight, nine. So Steph Co. and Sam are 24 days apart. Steph Co. was born on November 3rd. Sam was born on November 27th. They are they are almost twins. So Sam got exactly what he knew he was going to get a brother that was not dead. That was not a brother that was nine.

25:00So it was very different getting a nine year old. But at the same time, I could not have done another baby. I said, no way. So so it was perfect again. I love that. I love that he knew that Sam knew that was coming. He knew he and not that he was 10 and not that he was eight, but that he was nine and he was he was nice. So cool. That's neat. All right. So we're going to get into a few of our questions. And a lot of these questions come from listeners from our podcast.

25:32So a question that perspective adoptive parents have asked us is how do you know if agency private adoption or foster to adopt is the right route for your family? So like I mentioned before, we kind of threw it all up at the wall. You know, our first adoption with a private agency didn't work out. They never placed anyone. We never got any calls. And we were just open to doing both. So that's something that you within your own within your own family, your own heart, you

26:03have to investigate. But I would say throw it all at the wall and see what sticks. Don't be afraid of foster care. You never know what you're going to get. Don't be afraid of private because of the cost or whatever. You never know what you're going to get. Investigate it all and try everything. I love that. Many of our listeners are considering becoming foster parents based on your experiences. Do you have any advice that you would give them? Yes. So much advice because we have been foster parents to adopt with Samuel.

26:37But before that, we were foster parents of teens and their children. And we never had custody of the girls. They retained custody of their own children. We had hers. Our foster child. It's another one of those things that's very emotional because at the end of the day, you do want the parents to succeed. You want to keep families intact. That's the goal. You should not go into foster care just to adopt unless your state, for example, in California,

27:09they have a specific program foster to adopt. You get not licensed, but you're in that route. Okay. They would have never called us for any foster placements. They would have only called us for kids that were straight up adoption, which is why we initially got the call for Sam because that's what his mother told the caseworker in the hospital. That's why we were called. That's why they then had to ask us, hey, we're going to have to switch all your paperwork to foster care because she's changing her mind. So you need to see what your state does because it's a little bit disingenuous for potential

27:43parents to go in there and say, I'm not really interesting in helping a family. I'm interesting at adopting a child. If you want to adopt from foster care, there are many, many children already in the foster system that are ready to go. Terminations are done. They're ready. I say go that route, but don't go in thinking that the placement you'll have. You'll want them to stay because that becomes very emotionally conflicting for you and for

28:13the children. So if you want to do foster, it's amazing. Do it, but only do foster to adopt if you know you're not interested in true fostering. That's great advice. Thank you. Yes. All right. Can you tell us a bit about the different kinds of relationships you have with your son's biological families? Like are they open, closed, semi-open adoption relationships? Yeah. So a Hans is the most open you could possibly be without living in the same house.

28:44They live in another country. So a Hans parents, whose dad came here when he was in his twenties, he got a master's degree. He then got another master's degree, highly educated, lived in the Bay area. Then he and his wife got married and they could never have kids. And so ironically, it's kind of sad in the end, but they got pregnant with twins and a Han had Down syndrome and they were told prenatally that one of their twins would have

29:15Down syndrome, which they were not upset about the Down syndrome. They were, they didn't know how when they went back to India, cause she's Indian as well and also has a master's degree, highly educated, both U.S. citizens. They didn't know how their culture and their families would treat that child. And not only that, there's no education, there's no healthcare, there's no early intervention services. There's no, there's nothing truly to speak of.

29:45So they had, they were caught between, eventually they were going to have to go back to India to care for their elderly parents because his mother is an only child and he is the only boy in the family. There's only two siblings. They knew they'd have to go back to India, but they couldn't, they couldn't stomach the thought of this, this baby going to India and having no life. And their family basically said to them, it's fine, bring him back. We'll hire a nanny. He'll stay in a room with her and you never have to be bothered.

30:15And they said, there's no way. So they made the heartbreaking decision to say, we would rather have this open adoption as possible, leave a Han here in the States, cause he's a U.S. citizen, let him have all the benefits, love, care of a family, but also the medical, educational services he can possibly get. So that's why we have such an amazing relationship with them. And I consider his mom, my sister, we just got birthday pictures of his brother.

30:47We talk in Skype and everything all the time because it is, we truly feel like we are dual raising this child, but they just happen to be an Indian. We just happen to be here. So that's a Han. With Stephco, or excuse me, with Samuel, I met his birth mother one time when she was signing their elinquishments, got to have a nice long talk, but it's a completely closed adoption. He has never spoken to her.

31:17He's still deciding if at what point he wants contact with her, but there's zero relationship. And then with Stephco, we have in between. We have no relationship with his birth mother because she placed him in the orphanage in last, right? There's no contact there, but with his adoptive mother from New York state, we do stay in contact, but we only stay in contact probably every six months or so. I sent all of his graduation pictures. He graduated from ninth grade and it's going on high school.

31:49Anytime he does anything, I send the pictures, she'll ask how he's doing, but it's a very much more distant relationship. So we actually in our family have all three. We have very, very tight, nonexistent, and somewhat distant. Wow. Yeah. That's so interesting to have such a broad range. It's everything. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking specifically probably about a Han, what did you do to nurture that relationship with his first parents and to really bond with them and create this positive relationship

32:22that you have now between the time that you were matched and the time that he joined your family? I think the main thing was we could see as we went forward, God's hand in all of this. And they are very devout Hindi. And so they had their own religious beliefs as well and beliefs about God. And they were on their side before we got a Han and all of their adoption placement kept failing. They have three that failed. They even flew one time to Zoda to meet a family.

32:55It was going to be done. But the some administrator with the interstate compact office denied the application, denied the adoption, would not let it go through. This absolutely devastated them because they had had him for six months and they were growing and bonding to him and they didn't want him to then miss them. Right. So it was very hard for them. And we were kind of having the same thing on our side. So once we started to get to know each other, we sent our home study and we wrote birth

33:28mother or birth parent letters. All of our kids wrote a letter. This is these are the things I like. I like this. I'm into my oldest was a track star. She wrote about track and all of her things. But when we started seeing like Madison was obsessed with India, right, when they when they finally accepted us, we accepted them and we started having conversations, we saw how deep this was going. Right. And we just emotionally clicked. And it's funny, because because I'm on the National Dance Group adoption networks, like

34:06listings or they know who we are. There was a little baby Indian baby born here in Utah, also a twin that was being placed for adoption. But they called me and they said, we have a family that that is matched with him. But will you just help them to understand this and kind of go through the process? Because it was basically the same thing, an Indian baby being placed who had a twin brother. Right. But they said the same thing about their adoptive, their birth parents is that they just knew

34:38it just solidified and they just move forward. And we don't know how to explain that except to say that it was divinely put together. I think that's I think that's the main thing with us is we just and sadly with with a Han. So he had not been in our house for one month when he got RSV. He got sick, which then developed into pneumonia. He was lighted to primary children's. Well, that was the first time he coded coded in the emergency room.

35:11He's life flighted. We're driving there. I'm outside of his intensive care room. I'm on the phone with his parents who are still in California, bawling my eyes out. I said, I am so sorry you gave your son to me. And this is what happened. And they said, this is why we gave our son to you. Because you can access medical care for him once we go to India. They could have done it in the Bay Area right now. But that was not what happens when he's 10. What happens when he's 15?

35:41What happens when he's 25? Right. And I think that was the moment that just put us together on another level that we knew we're in this together. And and that hasn't happened, obviously, with with Sam's birth parents or Steph Coase. It just this experience of having having four parents of his children and even even when I talk about a Hans, I don't call him his birth parents. And when I say a Hans parents, Hans parents, Hans parents, we are doing this together.

36:16And so that's I think that's what has deepened our relationship just because of who we all are, but because that's how we view it. That here's this little special dude who we all love. And we're there parenting from there and we're parenting from here. So that's really beautiful. Thank you. What are some of the challenges and some of the blessings that accompany being an adoptive mom? To be honest, challenge the challenges are getting being placed with a child. Once the child comes, the challenges are the same as any child.

36:48You can give birth to a child that has Down syndrome and you're walking the same path I'm walking. You know, you can adopt a child through foster care. You can be walking the same path. Right. That doesn't that doesn't change as much. It's the initial. First of all, is this feeling that I'm feeling right? Is this feeling legitimate? Am I strong enough? Am I are we financially stable enough? But will my family accepted adopt a child?

37:19All of those questions. That's the hard thing. Once you can come to terms with those things, I think it gets easier. It's just having another child. Like with Samuel, for example, when we moved back to California from California here, he was 18 months old. Nobody in our community, none of our neighbors knew who was adopted because as an adoptive parent, you don't say, Hi, I'm Betty. These are my three biological children and this is my adopted son.

37:49You don't say that. And all of our all of our boys look like my husband, which is kind of funny how that ended up happening. The girls look like me and the boys look like my husband. So we never kind of differentiate that. It's just after the adoptions done, they're just my child. So for me, that's where all of the the hard part. It came was the pre adoption. But then afterwards, he's just another kid.

38:21Awesome. What are some of the unique challenges of being a special needs parent? That that is a good question. I think a lot of people are really worried about adopting. So so all three of my boys are technically on paper in their adoption decrees, special needs adoptions. Samuel, because his mother was homeless and was mentally ill, he qualifies as a special needs adoption. Obviously, my other two boys Down syndrome, special needs adoption, that that qualifier,

38:56that legal qualifier can be broad. It can be anything from special needs adoptions are also kids that have siblings, they are considered special needs adoptions. So you can have emotional special needs, right? Like I'm a sibling pair of three, and we're going to live in this family. And I feel about that. Right. Those are special needs. You can have a child who has special medical needs like a Han is only ever grown up in

39:27our family. He doesn't know his birth parents. He only knows us. So I deal with those medical things, which can be just as very right. So I have I have a Han from the time of his conception have the best medical care that money can buy. Yet through all best intentions, he still ended up having a lot of severe disabilities. No one anticipated that. Right. And then you have my stuff, who technically has Down syndrome, and he is basically non

39:58verbal, but everything else about him, he is a joy and everyone loves him. So this special need can vary so much. So I would never want people to be worried or think that they couldn't handle a child with special needs, because anyone who's been a parent knows every child has needs. And some of them are more specific than others. And to be worried or think I could never have a child with cerebral palsy or a deaf child

40:31or a child addicted to drugs. I could never do that. Well, of course you can do that. Of course you can. Because if it were your biological child, you would do that. And so you just just be brave and just say, you know what, I want to give love to a child. I want to grow my family. I'm going to be open to anything. And then once you're matched or once you decide, like for us, it was Down syndrome, whatever it is, you then just become educated.

41:03I know so many things about the medical care, specialty care. I can read a chest x-ray like nobody's business, because I have to. Right? So that's the thing. That's the thing about the beauty of parenting, foster, adopt, biological, whatever it is, that's the beauty is these children through their own special circumstances of life or special needs, every kid is going to teach you something and need something different. So maybe we can get rid of the label of special needs and we can just say, you know what,

41:36we're going to be open to anything. And we're going to know that God's going to give us the best for us, which for us is a totally amazingly gifted, amazing, handsome boy, Sam. And then I have my little medically fragile, perfect baby that everybody loves who's now 10 and I still call my baby. We have him and then we have Stucco too. And then we have the three biological, we're raising everything. And for some reason it works. So don't be scared off by special needs. I love that.

42:08And on a similar thread, what do you wish that you could tell yourself at the beginning of your adoption journey? Relax and just let it happen. Everybody have faith and just let it happen. If God tells you, you're going to have some that has Down syndrome, believe him, just believe him. Just it's going to happen. And get out of your own way, get out of your own head and just do the best, do all you can do. Do your home study the best you can do.

42:38Get your paperwork together, save your money, do whatever you have to do. Talk to your family. But at the end of the day, you just have to go forward in faith saying, I know that this is the right decision. And I'm just going to be brave and get on the roller coaster. Because it's going to be an emotional roller coaster. But if you can just hold on tight, it's going to be amazing. But it's, you know, there's nothing that you can prepare too much.

43:09You can never be too prepared, but you can be too neurotic. And I feel like with the Han, I became too neurotic. Because it was with Samuel's adoption, it wasn't such a specific spiritual thing. It was just I wanted a kid. How do I find the kid? But with a Han, it was a baby boy with Down syndrome. How do you do that? So that would be my advice is just become educated, do your best, move forward, but don't become neurotic.

43:40Don't make your entire life and your entire marriage, your family life, your heart only revolve around that adoption. Because you'll you'll you'll make yourself crazy and you don't need to. Easier said than done. But that's great advice. Easier said than done. Awesome. So in your experience, how might adoptees feelings about their stories change over time, particularly as they move from childhood into adolescence, teenage years?

44:10And how can adoptive parents support and help them in this process? With Samuel, he's always known he was adopted. And it was kind of funny because we weren't really sure how we were going to tell him initially. But then, of course, one day, his friend across the street was there. His mom was going to have a baby. And it's the conversation of, hey, mom, did I come out of your tummy or something about the mommy tummy? Right. He was little.

44:40He was like three. And I said, oh, no, buddy, you didn't come out of my tummy. I want to tell you the story of how you came. And that just kind of is what happened with Sam. So he there's never been a time that he didn't know he was adopted, because that's kind of how he says, oh, some, you know, some babies come out of this mommy's tummy, some come out of this mommy's tummy. For most of his life, I would say probably probably the first 10 years of his life, he never really thought about it. But then when he was maybe 10 or 11 ish, he really started because he is we call him racially

45:14ambiguous. We don't know what he we don't know what he is. We knew his mother was blonde, Caucasian, fair. We didn't know anything about his dad, except he wasn't because Sam has dark skin, very curly hair. We thought he was Polynesian. He's very, very muscular and large. Right. So we thought, oh, he must be Polynesian. So we did a DNA test. And it came back that he is more than 25%, probably about 30% African American from West

45:44Africa. So, okay, that makes sense. And then after that, he really attached to to that side of himself. And it's so funny, my my perfect boy, when he was, gosh, how was he, maybe he was even younger when we did the DNA test. It's crazy one Halloween, buddy, what do you want to be for Halloween? And he said, I want to be the continent of Africa. I want to be the continent of Africa. And I said, Okay, buddy, how are we going to be the continent of Africa?

46:16We literally got a poster board drew Africa drew all of the countries he called the countries. And he was a continent of Africa. Right. Okay. So it's been very interesting watching him mature and watching him grow and understand genetically who he is, but still not understand who he is. So for us in our family, we and in our in our religion, we believe that families are forever.

46:46And that your ancestors are crucial to your life. And they can add so much richness and depth to your life. And so Samuel, when he was let's see, I think 12 started digging into his family history through family, family search.org. And he went in there and one time so we were going to classes. And he actually it was about DNA, family search and DNA. And he was able with the help of one of the workers there to go on and actually find through

47:19this site called find a grave. He was able to find his grandfather's headstone is on his mother's side, because we have her information, we have nothing for the biological father. And ever since then now every Sunday for about two or three hours, he sits and does family history and researches. Because that is something in him that even though he loves us desperately, he wants to know who he is too. And it's been really nice to say, you know, buddy, I don't know 100% who you are, but

47:49he loves research, even the two countries, Togo and Benin, I think, where most of his DNA comes from. So let's learn about those countries. And so for him being adopted, I think it's kind of because he's still younger, it's kind of an evolving thing still too. But he's very connected to not only who we are, but who he is. So and we'll see and I even asked him the other day, because he's going to be turning 16 in November.

48:20And I said, Do you when you're 18, do you want to reach out to birth mom because we have her Facebook page, like through Facebook now you can find anybody. And we think we found his birth dad, because of YouTube, he has a YouTube channel, which is crazy that you can, and he has Samuel's face, Samuel's face. But I said, Do you want to reach out? And he said, I'm not sure yet. I'm not sure yet. And I said, Great. Just let me know, buddy, but you have to be at least 18 legally. And I think emotionally, you should be at least 18.

48:52And if you want to reach out, you can't. If you don't want to reach out, you don't have to. This is something, you know, that's a personal private decision. But just know, your mom is your mom. She'll always be your mom. And I think one good thing, though, too, is that Sam sees the loving relationship we have with a Hans family and a Hans twin brother called Sam, his older brother. Oh, that's cute. Love Sam. So I think Sam is in a unique position that he's only seen the really beautiful things

49:24about adoption and family relationships. So he's not craving that as much because he's kind of already getting it. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. He loves adoption, too. And he's so cute. As little he said to us, and Sam's been obsessed with having a family since he could articulate words. One day he told us, he said, I'm going to adopt all the kids on the adoption list. Oh, buddy, you better get a good job. You better ride for those kids. But I think when these kids have these positive experiences, they just want to share it.

49:56Yeah. No, it's nothing to be scared about. It's just something I've been loved. I want to love, too. That's sweet. I love that. So we've talked a little bit about this with Sam and with how he's seen your open adoption relationships with his younger brother. But is there anything else you want to talk about with how do you handle having these boys have different kinds of openness in their adoptions? It sounds like that's worked really nicely. Honestly, for us, it's really just kind of organically worked out in that one, his mom,

50:31she knows he can reach out, so he's not striving for that. With the parents, he kind of gets that anyway. Like I still have this birth parent relationship and he loves them. They love him. So he gets it. And with even with Stephco's family. So we took Samuel with us when he was nine to New York City for a week to pick up Stephco because we knew it would be best for Stephco if he had another child there to kind of buffer

51:01that. We don't want him to think he's being kidnapped, right? Because that's meet these people and yeah, you're going to go to lunch a couple of times, but eventually you're going back to the hotel with them. Eventually, it's real. We don't want him to be scared. So we took Sam. So Sam got that great experience of going to New York State, picking him up. And ever since then, so he got to meet that family and talk to them. I mean, he was nine. But since then, I don't even know that I've shared any of her emails with Sam to say,

51:35oh, hey, by the way, Stephco's mom, you know, I don't think I've done that. And he's not asked either. So I think for him in our particular situation, he gets what he needs through a Hans parents and he doesn't feel I don't and he's never even said he feels jealous because he feels like that's his family to connect on a different level with him because he's he's a typical cognitively typical kid. Right. So whenever we talk on the phone, they're like, hey, buddy, what's going on? Like, tell us about your life.

52:06Right. He gets that met, but through someone else's biological parents. Yeah. But he still feels included. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. I love that. That feels so inclusive. Do you have any suggestions for other families trying to navigate these different relationships with multiple kids that have different scenarios for their stories? I think for us as the parents, if we can get rid of our insecurities first, and it's OK,

52:39if Sam is of liking his adoptive or his birth parents better than me, I have to be OK with that. Right. And so I think if we can get out of our way and just say it's not personal. Right. And let them develop those relationships in the best healthy way they can. I think that ultimately helps everyone the most because I think it's our insecurities of he's going to like them better.

53:09And actually, even a sad story about that, my husband, my husband just retired from the military after 26 years, and he was doing kind of his exit paperwork. And we all both have to be there in science paperwork. Well, the guy that works there is my husband's friend, and he had just reconnected with his birth father. And he's in his 40s. Like he didn't know, birth father didn't know about him. He didn't know about the birth father. Somehow they got connected. And he said, and I said, how are you feeling about it?

53:40Are you nervous to meet him? And he said, you know, I'll tell you, the thing that makes me the most sad about this entire situation is how my adoptive parents always talked about my birth parents. He said, and so I kind of am having a little resentment from about that. That not only did they not encourage me to know the side of my family, but they still bad mouth my birth parents. And I'm going to meet this man. And all I've ever heard is all the mistakes he's made in his life.

54:10He said, that's really upsetting to me. It's awful. I learned in that moment, I don't ever want to be that parent for Samuel because the other two don't understand that I ever said a mean word about his birth parents. That's not my job. My job is to tell Sam, you came to us through miraculous ways because your mom was unable. And even in the conversation I had with her, I asked her, I said, can I ask you why you

54:42decided to play Sam for adoption instead of going ahead and making a parenting plan? And she said, I want Sam to have two things that I can't give him. And also she is for me a licensed attorney and has a computer science degree. So this is a woman for whatever reason found herself homeless. And I don't judge that. And I don't know. She said, I want Sam to have two things I can't give him. An education and a father.

55:13I can't give him any of those things. If I could, he would be with me, but I can't. And so I told her, I said, well, just so you know, my husband's in the military right now learning his second foreign language of Arabic. He also speaks Russian. We are a highly educated family. We expect high education in our children. So just know that I will move heaven and earth to educate your son. I said, and secondly, my husband is the greatest man you'll ever meet because all he's ever wanted since he was little was to be a dad.

55:44And so I've had this conversation with Sam a lot. I said, Sam, the reason that I'm on you about your grades and we have high expectations is because I have to fulfill that covenant, that promise that I made with your mother that not only would I give you a father, but that I would give you an education. And your dad feels the same way. He is trying to be the best possible father because we are trying to respect her wishes to the best of our ability. And so it's been very interesting.

56:14So I would say if the birth parents or the adoptive parents can respect and love and come to terms and not judge the birth parents, because a lot of people, even about a Hans family, oh my goodness, the things I hear about, how could you possibly place a twin? How could you, how could you? You don't need to, how you don't need to wonder that. That's none of your business. You don't need to worry about it. And I don't need to worry about it. It is their decision. And so just respect and honor that decision and show that respect and honor to our kids.

56:47I think it makes everything better. That is so well said and beautiful. Thank you. All right. Last question. Is there anything else that you want to talk about or share? Everything. I love adoption, I sing in the whole wide world and I evangelize adoption to everyone. They always hear our stories because our boys very much look like my husband, like I said. So when they hear they're adopted, what? You adopted them? What?

57:17I said, yeah, it's the best thing I ever did and you should do it too. Oh, I could never, I can never, of course you could. Of course you could, right? Oh, you have these. And the thing that drives me crazy, I wish people would not say this specifically about adopting kids with special needs. Oh, you're a saint. You're an angel. Actually, I'm not a saint and I'm not an angel. These boys have made more, they have made our lives richer, more beautiful. I have grown as a person than I ever would have not having them. So they have done me a favor. I am not doing them a favor.

57:47And I think that that's the thing we get that in the community a lot. People saying, oh, bless your soul for adopting. No, no, not bless my soul. I am getting the benefit of this. I am getting to have this little person in my life. So it's not that I'm a saint and that their birth parents or sinners are bad for placing them. So that's the main thing I tell people, adopt, adopt, adopt. Don't be scared. Don't let your insecurities take over.

58:18Just be brave. If you're feeling like you should do it, you should just do it. And it was funny too, we even had, so Chris, so my husband, so I'm from Utah. My husband was going to college in Oklahoma and came out to Utah on an LDS mission. And that's eventually how we met. But he, we, while he was on his mission, knew a family that had a little girl in the family. Well, that little girl grew up. And so one day she called me and she said, so weirdest thing, I'm feeling like we should

58:50adopt a baby with Down syndrome. She said, it's really weird. It just comes on you and it just sits on you. She said, but I'm really drawn to doing an international adoption and I'm really scared about that. And I gave her the same advice. I said, don't fear, get your ducks in a row and go and let God make a path for you because he will. He will. If you just say, I'm going to turn in my paperwork, I'm going to save my money and I'm going to go, you'll make a way. And they did it and they got sweet little Lucy and she has said that was the best decision

59:25that they ever made. And so that's what I tell people. I say, don't be afraid and don't think about the future. Well, what about, what about, what about my children? Like people say all the time, well, your kids are going to live with you forever. My, my two disabled kids. And I said, your child could be hit by a car tomorrow and live with you forever. Your child could be addicted to drugs. Anything can happen to anyone's right. And so don't live your life about what about, what about, what about to say, I have room

59:58in my heart for someone else and I want to love them. And it's going to financially be hard and you're going to have to make some sacrifices. It's going to emotionally almost devastate you at times, but you will never regret the decision. You will never, I have not for one minute regretted because it was, it has been miraculous from start to finish. So that is when I evangelize to people, that is what I say. I say, be brave, let's do it and get support along the way to talk to other adoptive families

60:34and that can give you strength and that can, it can, it can push it forward. Like, like when we were getting on, we had some really dear friends and they had been married almost 20 years and they could never have kids. And then one day they were sitting, it was his brother-in-law was sitting in a job interview at an adoption agency and the birth mother came in and she had twins. She was pregnant with twins and she was going to place them for adoption. And so this, this, it was a brother or an uncle or somebody called our friends and said,

61:06Hey, you should get your paperwork in because there's a set of twins that are coming. And they were like, Oh, maybe we should try that. And they did. They got those twin babies. If you can even believe it, miracles literally happen. They will happen in every adoptive story I've ever heard. It's the same thing. The universe is parted and changed and moved for families to come together. Don't forget that in your adoption story, you're brave enough.

61:37You're strong enough. You can do it. You just have to get on the ride and know it's going to be crazy, but it's going to be the most exhilarating, fulfilling thing you ever did. Wow. I love that. Thank you so much. Thank you, Burgundy. Thank you for talking to us today. You are welcome. Thank you for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. We're really grateful for Burgundy for her sharing her story and being just so open with

62:09us. It's so great for us to understand different aspects of adoption and to hear different stories. So we have a more well-rounded understanding and picture of what adoption can and does look like. So thanks again to Burgundy for this episode. Just a reminder, we have a few episodes left in this season before we take a little break. Again, if you are enjoying the podcast, we would love to invite you to give us a rating. So either on Apple podcasts or on audible, please jump on, give us a rating, write a

62:42comment and the more ratings that we have, the more we'll be able to reach ultimately. So thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next time.

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