Motherhood: Equal and Different with Stevoni Doyle and Aymee Condie

0:00Welcome to the open adoption project. This is episode 84. We are the Nelsons. I'm Lanette and I'm Sean in today's episode We have a wonderful conversation with two amazing women Yes today we get to talk to Stevoni Doyle and Aymee Condi and they are both incredible so We should probably explain just because it feels complicated at first but as you listen it it's not I promise It's awesome. Yes, so Stevoni and

0:31Aymee are both mothers and They share some of their kids and they have like this big Like open adoption esque kind of family, but their family started off being United like this through kinship foster care and then adoption and they'll tell the story more But they talk about how it started off That they did not like each other and as you'll listen to them You can tell that they have an immense love for each other and immense respect and it's really really powerful to hear how their

1:08Relationship blossomed over time and has grown. I wasn't here Personally at our house when we recorded this episode Lanette was here with them in our home But I can tell like I don't even have to see them to know how close they are and like how good of friends they are like the connection that they have with each other is so So strong you'll hear that and yet like sincere and palpable. Yeah, it's really powerful. They're just

1:38They capitulate as those goals that I have of being able to have those strong connections with Our family right with our kids biological family who have become part of our family. Yeah Well, let's tell a little bit about them and let's jump into the recording. Yeah, so Just really quick since this is a longer episode, but it's a really really good one So definitely stick them to the end. Yes. Yes stay but Stevoni is a roller derby regional champion and

2:11Aymee is a Burning Man Enthusiast with the distinction that she added that she is into like the regional Burning Man and they are both really fun really just like automatically I Felt like this connection to them and really liked them. They're very likable and Really vulnerable they talk about some really hard feelings and hard experiences But they do it in a way that's so positive and just really helpful So we're really excited for you to listen to this conversation with Lanette, Aymee and Stevoni

2:56We're here on the podcast with Stevoni and Aymee. Thank you so much both of you for being here So exciting to be here. Thanks for having us. Yeah, so to start off. Can you tell us about yourselves? So my name is Aymee Condy I am an adoptive parent I have adopted three children to the foster care system My first two children came to me when they were six and three and I was 23 My youngest came to me when he was 13 months old and they are now 27 25 and 16

3:28so And this is my older kids mom My name is Stevoni Doyle and I am a birth mother and my kids went into the foster care system in March of 2001 They were removed from my care due to me being addicted to methamphetamines and Just not caring for my kids properly

3:58How I guess Aymee and I are related I guess is can't see my quotes here Is she was married to my ex-husband my oldest boy's father At the time of the removal of my kids, so Her and my ex-husband wanted to get custody of my oldest son and that's how they got involved in the process of

4:30Foster care and adoption Yeah, so yeah Our daughter our shared daughter She is not so she's not Biologically related, but she was biologically related to a biological relation That's how we're kinship family And so I was a stepparent and a foster parent for two of stepney's kids basically Yeah, and awesome. Yeah So those and that we like call those our children because they are our children

5:03But then like I have my son that I think is separate and then she has her son That's a little separate But then those two boys like they kind of think of themselves as like a family So it's just a big it's just a big family and I don't we didn't start that way Um when yeah when Stevoni was going through her drug addiction First of all, she was a different person and drugs really like affect people in in ways that change their personalities, but

5:33Also, just yeah, I think it's interesting about emotional maturity And the way that they're able to change their personality And then the way that they're able to change their personality is just so different So it's just so different So that's one of the things that we were talking about earlier And then the other thing that we were talking about earlier was the idea that we were both 23 years old And we're trying to manage the lives of these like little people and at the time I think we both felt like we were really old

6:05Mm-hmm And then like a three or four years later, oh my gosh that yeah that we would like There's no way that I would imagine that I would be sitting next to this person and being like yeah. She's she's great. She's amazing I We didn't start out that way. We started out very hostile very much. Like I was the baby stealer and she was the drug addict She was my ex-husband's wife. I mean that's a whole yeah, that's a tricky dinam. Yeah just a whole different dynamic and and I was also on drugs and so I'm not

6:39thinking clearly I'm also very selfish as a person because to me all my kids needed was me and even though I couldn't care for them properly and I wasn't coherent most the time because I was on drugs the selfish part of me was like my kids don't belong to anybody else and don't need to be anywhere else and so it was it was a dynamic that that she didn't like me and I didn't like her and it's kind of how it was at first. Yeah that went on for a long time like maybe

7:14close to a year of the kids being in care of and then so we had our what's it permanency hearing we had our permanency hearing that basically is just to decide if what if the children should be adopted or whatever and at that hearing I felt like I had like won this great battle you know we were in this war for what's in the best interest of the children and I was like super excited

7:46because now these children were gonna probably likely come to me that was the plan that was all those things and and Tyler like our oldest was placed with us at that time like that was permanent custody at that time too and so but like Stevoni left that exact same hearing with a totally different understanding. Yeah I again didn't understand what was going on throughout the process mainly because I was on drugs the majority of the time but permanency to me what I thought it was is DCFS said we're no longer offering

8:18services to you and I was like great I don't have to jump through your hoops all I have to do now is in jail at the time so this is like kind of where my thinking was all I have to do is get out of jail get a job get a house and my kids can come home and I was just completely naive about the situation and had no idea what was actually happening and what permanency really meant at that time. Yeah like Stevoni disappeared for some time it was really there was a lot of disruption within that that time when we were there but I felt like so but the

8:53difference was that I also started to change after permanency so between permanency hearing and our termination trial there was like three months of time and in that time I went through this drastic emotional shift within me that basically I I became a mother and I I for people who've gone through foster care I think that they understand this idea but for people who don't understand I just imagine that like children that you barely know are just brought to your

9:24home and then they're like hey love them but like not so much that you can't give them back when it's time you're just holding on to them temporarily I felt like a babysitter like a 24-7 babysitter that and and at any time all she had to do was get those things yeah and we would like I would I would no longer be a mother to these children especially for Lexi because I had no ties to her otherwise she could have just completely disappeared and so that's our daughter's

9:57name I don't know if I said that anyway so but I became this mother and it was a different a whole different thing I've never been a mom before these were kids just hello instant family and so it was I developed this different feeling of empathy and compassion because I was also not a perfect mother believe it or not 23 I had like all of these like flaws but I had to hide those from everyone right couldn't let anybody know that I was struggling or having a hard time

10:30with these kids because then they think I wouldn't I wasn't capable and they take them away that's a really it's a challenging dynamic within the foster care system of not being able to admit when like things are wrong not being able to say I'm struggling and I really was struggling but not again not like to the level that they needed to be removed just that I needed I felt ashamed of that but when it came time to wear a trial I really had a different vibe about

11:01Stevoni and as a foster parent you get to sit through the whole the whole trial and this is my husband's ex-wife and what it would have betraying awful feeling that only as our ex-husband now has developed a new wife do I really fully understand that that would have been so terrible but like watching her have to testify and have to try to make something out of really nothing there

11:34was like very little to have a defense about and to be testified against from so many different police officers because I've been arrested so many times there's probably an officer from like every city in the county there and my daughter's dad saying a bunch of awful untrue stuff you know the majority of what had happened was true that the DCFS brought and stuff like that but just it was just you're under every one of your flaws is under a microscope and you are

12:09just sitting in a courtroom full of people with person after person saying how awful of a person you are and how awful of a mother you are which is something that should just be like I guess like as a woman I felt like the one thing that should be natural to me to be a good mom and a protective mom and a caring mom I fail that and I think that's when things started to shift for me with Aymee as well was during that trial I think I started to realize

12:44listening to all of that negative stuff about me that that I was being selfish and I couldn't offer my kids what they needed it took a couple of days I'm sorry to interrupt but like the first day like when I went so I had to testify and in the middle of my testimony like they asked me how I felt about my daughter who wasn't my daughter at that time but it doesn't ask me how I felt about it and I said that I felt really like she was completing our family and

13:14Stevoni could not tolerate that all slams her hands down on the table disrupts the whole courtroom gets in huge trouble like while I'm on the witness stand it was just so we didn't like each other not a smart thing to do in court either just just not but so yeah because we had to go for one day and then date like weeks pass and you come in for another day of trial it was so such a weird thing it was awful but I think we both had these shifts because

13:45I've spent the first day feeling sorry for Stevoni and like actually like calculating through my life if I had done just this one little choice different yeah or anything I could have easily ended up in the same place with four kids by the time I was 21 years old and why did you get it why did you develop a meth problem that's such a surprise and a shock yeah that's so easy I know it's such an easy life you had well and having those four kids under the age of four and then there my daughter's dad left and I was working at

14:19a bar and the manager of the bar who was like a 40 something year old man but hey you try this instantly I was addicted it's pretty easy and I I had experienced some things that I was like all I would if I had gotten caught doing that or if this had that we weren't that far apart and more importantly that like love is separate from being able to parent that was my first experience of like

14:55distinguishing between those two things because she had like a picture of the kids that said like hope on it and there was like no hope here but how do you give up hope as a mother how do you let that go and and finally seeing her in a mother we are the same yeah and yeah that also realizing that this tragic thing is happening a family is being ripped apart forever and I had no idea what that was

15:28even I had no concept of what that could even feel like but that's what was happening right there in my family I had to go home and tell my kids like a judge decided that your mom's not your mom anymore and not both of them either like that was a really confusing piece because she's still Tyler's legal mother that never had to change because yeah it just didn't but because now this person

15:58I'm gonna be on this kid's birth certificate but not this kid's birth certificate and explaining all of that was just it was tragic and I didn't know what to do with it but that like the tragedy was happening in front of me to this woman that I felt a lot of empathy for suddenly I only I have to call it like a divine intervention I know I mean just I didn't have that capability to do that there's nothing it just came through it came back later well no what

16:28like so she comes and we end court you lose your rights and we're walking out of court and these are just like as I'm like remembering these memories it's like such a disgusting feeling of just tragicness but she comes running toward me and I honestly thought maybe she was coming to hit me like she just lost lost the rights to her kids and instead she like wraps her arms around me and just hugs me and says take care of our kids I'm like you know I will but it was

17:03like this passing of a thing but also my whole body said why is this why do we have to do this but she really was addicted to drugs and so that's why we had to do it but yeah sorry you go well and and she talked about like divine intervention I think about that moment and what caused me to do that like I don't it was some sort of something pushing me and saying hey you you need to tell this person to take care of our kids or whatever and and I think it was

17:38also me just also passing the torch to her and saying it's okay for you to be their mother I mean we still have like lots of weirdness and awkwardness for a long time but it you know it just I finally started to wake up a little bit no you know I wasn't what was best for them and you know after the trial things kind of a kind of went on my own way and I think it's probably like three or four

18:10months after the trial I had committed a lot of crimes and it was getting close to me being sentenced for for these crimes but I figured out of the blue maybe I should call them because I had their phone number I mean you know it's my ex-husband I knew their number and just see if she'll talk to me about the kids like I didn't expect anything from it in fact to be honest she could have what I expected was her just to hang up on me you know she didn't have to talk

18:42to me and we when I called her we talked for a long time on the phone and both talked about our fears of it was the first time that we've been vulnerable in any way shape or form yeah I was always been guarded and it was the first time that we'd actually interacted without like a bunch of other people like DCFS people were looking or attorneys or just gross things that make everything complicated so I think it was a time to be vulnerable and yeah so I go ahead it

19:14was just that was it like we both realized that I think that we both loved those kids and and that we both have like the exact same fears like my biggest fear was that my kids would forget about me and not want me at any of the important events in their life and wouldn't care and her biggest fear was that all the kids would want is me there and wouldn't want wouldn't care if she

19:46was there and that was just I guess it was really kind of interesting so we talked for a long time and then she like did something crazily amazing and invited me to come over and see the kids I'm super impulsive yeah and I so I went over there and I got to see the kids and they were so excited to see me and they were so like excited about to show me everything in their house and and they took me to their room and I went in their bedroom and they had a picture of

20:20me hanging up on their wall and it was a healthy picture of when I was younger and I felt like she had not let them forget me and kind of invited me to still be a part of their lives by having that picture hanging in the room and that was just just like a really amazing moment for me I was just really overwhelmed to see that and I think that's kind of the start of everything

20:50yeah I think we we accepted that we both could be there that it was our issue yeah it was our inability to like tolerate our own emotions and or be safe like that was another thing so I in that conversation we talked about and I don't think that in the moment there's no way that we knew this was gonna be such a meaningful conversation that would like guide our whole whatever for the next whatever long but it really was like I said to her you've got because at this

21:24time she was still doing a lot of things that were very unpredictable and unsafe yeah you know and so like you need to have some some sobriety you need to have like be working on things but more importantly when you tell the kids that you're gonna come you're gonna show up because we've done things before that they've not like she's not shown up to things and it's just so that's really hard yeah it's hard it like with our daughter's biological dad there's a whole side story to this but he kept he would keep promising to show up and

21:56never showed up and like this went on for his for just a long time and he just had to finally be like no you don't get access anymore because you can't you can't keep promising a little person that's not fair it's not okay it's better for you to be away yeah but that you would you know stop promising things that you couldn't deliver on but they would be honest and just that we we could envision just even imagine I think in today's this is 20 years ago in today's

22:26society the idea of co-parenting is so popular and everybody knows what they're doing this was not a foreign that was not a thing was the 90s and open adoptions to was not a thing not at all the state of Utah especially it was just you know it was because Utah has closed adoptions I don't think that's changed at all there's I know that they've really pushed for open adoption there wasn't a legal way to have an adult open adoption there is now okay so and like

22:56we haven't mentioned that she had to we haven't really mentioned that she had two other children the twins that are a year younger than Lexi but that like that shift and the the differences between those things and I guess we can compare that a little later in the story but I at the time it was really important to me that 70 be a consistent piece even if it was just once a year or letters or whatever that looked like find where you're gonna be but for right now come and visit because you know they really want to see you there was no way and I

23:30mean I don't think anyone should erase your adoption history I don't I think you should tell your children their adoption story every single moment you have a chance it's their life story but I think it was really challenging to give a story for what was happening because this isn't supposed to happen adoption really like infant adoption that's a whole different thing but something tragic has to happen in our family for our family to even exist yeah

24:00and so telling our story to our kids about our kids has been helpful but also I think it's important to just have that piece that says this is why we did it and I couldn't erase her I couldn't just say like you know what guys I'm your new mom that other person she's not your mom but here's the thing that really shocks me is that there's people out there in the world who believe that is true and still to this day believe that is true it it never will it you can't just erase

24:37someone's history or give it like people who give new names like the twins got new names when they were adopted when they're finally adopted at seven they got new first names and they also got cut off from seeing their siblings which you know they have that right and and I don't want to like diss them and in fact I've gotten to know them really well in the last probably five years five years and so I understand a lot of more why they did what they did but that was

25:12really difficult for the girls and for especially for Tyler and Lexi because they were old enough to remember their siblings so you know like here's two here's two of your sisters who just they exist in some place in this county maybe we'll bump into them but one day when we did bump into them their mom literally dragged them away like wouldn't let us talk to them and I I used to really try

25:42to try to feel a lot of empathy for that but that really was like from my perspective the wrong thing to do I can't come up with how that was an okay thing to do yeah it really it hurt my children and I so from from from our perspective even at that time when open adoption wasn't being promoted there was no way that we could consider anything but an ocean an open adoption and if we're gonna have to do that for the rest of our lives why not make it reasonable yes tolerable and even the as we as we grew now Stevoni went to

26:17prison for a long time a little over two years total yeah well you tell your presence right actually three years so after that phone call we started doing visits and Aymee had been taking our kids to my family reunion which was a huge thing while I was not there and and so they she was maintaining that

26:51relationship with my family and so we just kind of got to know each other a little bit more I was still using so like three months after the yes so we started developing a relationship and started talking and then I got sentenced to probation federally and then to do a year in Utah County Jail and three years probation so we decided to invite Aymee and the kids to a dinner my

27:22going away party and we took our kids to Sizzler and my mom and everybody was there because I was going to turn myself in the next day I want to add in the telling the truth okay yeah okay so from where we talked about the story tell right now like having a story to tell so one of the things that that I did thinking I was protecting my kids was to tell them not the truth and lie necessarily I just said things like your mom's sick and she's going away to

27:53places to get better and like kind of painting it over in a weird way that to me made their little tender hearts hear it better but what it actually did was really confused them and I found that out when mom didn't get better she's now having like she's going away to jail and now we have to talk about what that means and I realized during this time about the importance of like telling the truth about drugs that kids really can understand drugs even if they're only four years old yeah and that they can understand the concept of like making a

28:27bad choice and meeting like a grown-up timeout and so we really started at that time to really tell our story in more honest and genuine ways which was really a valuable piece yes so that when it came time for you to go to jail yes yes so we went out to dinner by this time the kids were very comfortable with the fact that I was going to jail and our kids have never been quiet and never been shy so we're in Sizzler and the lady comes up and Tyler's all my mom's

29:01going to jail tomorrow and just telling her and so that's why we're here at dinner yeah we don't really live with her yeah you know yeah they're just really open and honest with people so I went to jail and Aymee decided well especially our oldest boy Tyler was very nervous about me being in jail he thought it was you know like you see on TV where they give you like bread and water and slide it under the door and you're in an old like pit or whatever

29:33with so he was nervous and so she started driving by the jail saying hey look it's just a building this is what it is and and Tyler asked her well why can't we just go in and so yeah I'll let you tell that part because I think it's pretty interesting well again to to really try it was hard we had to build a relationship with someone who's literally locked away in a building and we're going through therapy we're doing all of that stuff trying to you know manage this this tragic thing that had happened so yeah deciding to go visit in

30:07jail I got so much like negative feedback from people and I laugh about it because I think I think people just haven't really considered it they they live in their bubble and like here in this valley a lot of people live in a lot of different bubbles which is fine but they don't really include jail visits in those bubbles but like people would say to me you know if you take your kids to the jail they're gonna think that it's okay to go to jail and they're gonna be like fine breaking the law when they're adults and there was a little

30:39bit of me that was like me that's true but what if it's not what if like they need to see that their mom's okay what if that's actually way more important that like we have to make gel okay because mom's there talk about play therapy with Tyler yeah so Tyler yeah Tyler would he would take me we were doing this thing called filial therapy which is a caregiver and the child and then the therapist like watches and so we he had this routine and I mean it was

31:09like it didn't take a master's degree honestly if what's wrong with this child but like he would grab all of the like police stuff and then he'd arrest me and then he would take me over to the corner and then tell me how bad I was and I was in jail and I'd be like okay and then he would go get every food item in the play therapy room to bring to me to give me all of the food like to take care of me right so the kind that this like punishing police officer kind jailer and

31:42this went like over and over that happened multiple times and like that's just not he needs to know that his mom's okay in jail maybe so I yeah I figured out how to do family visits and we we figured that out and that what was that that was that was outside of my comfort zone I'm gonna put it that way but when when I looked at is this harming my children yes they are sad yes they are like distressed that you know their life isn't the way it is but really their

32:12life isn't the way it is and we have to like find ways to make that okay like probably two or three visits in Lexi's like skipping down to whatever this ski resort is called yeah at the Utah County jail they name all the places after ski resorts which is just me like you you're housed in snowbird but yeah so she's like skipping down there and you're like meeting between the glass it's literally how you see it on they don't even do that anymore anyway but yeah on its

32:43little phone thing it's just exactly like you see it on television but this is their mom and all of a sudden she started to look a little bit healthier yes she wasn't having a lot of access to math yeah like I started to put on some weight and that I call it the the soul comes back the light comes back in the eyes because there's something about when somebody's doing drugs that they've just got this vacant yeah I don't know and so you know they got to see that light come back on and they got to see me get healthy and it was amazing to that

33:17she would bring them there to visit me and you know I always look forward to those visits and and we started to develop a little bit of a relationship I was only in gel for I think about seven months and gel is what I call I haven't been there in years and I don't ever want to go back to find out what it's like now but it's a very stagnant place where it was and you're constantly bombarded with people coming in off the street that are high or that are

33:49detoxing from drugs and you're just around the same people that that you use with and you get in trouble with and I didn't put any effort into really changing my life so when I was released from jail I was using again within two weeks I didn't change anything about my life I didn't change the people that I hung out with I just nothing changed so Aymee and Reid started like you know immediately having visits with me when I got out of jail and I think that kind of

34:23rushed into they may have kind of rushed into things a little bit but I think so at the time I really believed that it was safe yeah right because you weren't with the kids alone ever really like your brother was always there your mom was blocks away I know I don't know that it was necessarily unsafe I think I think I was naive I think that I thought because yeah you'd been away from meth why would you go back to this drug like yeah I were both yeah yeah I I thought

34:53for sure that anybody who had gone that long in jail without the drug in their body yeah that they would be recovered yeah but that that would just be the magical cure right just time and so that was you know that was kind of naive on everyone's part let's again remember that we are like 25 years old what we were younger than that no the kids can't live with me and I'm 23 and this is like two years later so like 24 25 the same age that's what we're trying for cuz I

35:26went to prison when I was 24 there you go okay I mean so let's let's just calculate I often have to do this calculation I know you're in our young 20s I know it's crazy and we're just like why didn't we know that I know oh I don't know but yeah so I think we jumped into I think the kids were really excited they were really excited that you were gonna be around yeah and and they didn't have to go to the jail anymore yeah and I could touch them and yeah you know play with them and unfortunately that didn't last I I think

35:57I made it three months before I was arrested again and I was on both state probation and federal probation so when I was arrested again I was violated on both of those probations so when I got arrested again in March of 2004 I was sentenced to zero to five years in Utah State Prison so I was transferred up to

36:27Utah State Prison and Aymee and I decided that while I was in prison that it would be best if we didn't do in-person visits because the kids could be subject to some pretty scary things like full-body searches or if something were to happen while they're there we just we just felt both of us felt it just wasn't a good thing but we started like I would call them all the time I would write letters Aymee would write letters to me we started kind of really to develop Aymee and I

37:00started to develop more of a relationship one-on-one when I went to prison through letters and phone calls and I was getting I got released from Utah State Prison after 16 months and I was transferred to a federal holding facility in Daggett County this waiting for me to be sentenced on my federal stuff and I had talked to my probation officer and my attorney and they're like

37:36listen they're probably just gonna reinstate your probation and let you out you've done this much time so I was really excited to get out and then it was the day before Mother's Day and I got a call over the PA that I had a contact visit and I was like this has got to be like my probation officer or my lawyer or something and I walked into the room and Aymee had driven figured out how to get a contact visit driven for three and a half hours with our children

38:08just so they didn't have to go another Mother's Day without seeing me and I think that solidified my relationship with her that this person truly loves our children and she loves me too she's not gonna do that you know just you know for the heck of it and I was so amazed that I got to touch these kids that I hadn't touched in over 16 months and you know got to see them and how big they are and we made all these plans for when I was gonna get out because I was going to court on Monday and it was just an amazing experience that she would do

38:41that but come Monday I had to make a pretty devastating phone call the federal judge said hey I'm afraid if I let you out and reinstate your probation you're just gonna violate again so I'm gonna send it to you to a year and a day in federal prison and when they take you to federal prison they immediately take you and put you on Con Air so you're like handcuffed in an airplane and you end up in a federal holding facility in Oklahoma so I had to call that night and

39:12say I'm not coming home for in federal time you do like 80% of your time and so I was like at least another 11 months I was devastating but I am actually truly thankful that I did go to federal prison I don't know if I was ready to get out at that time yeah I mean Stevoni makes a joke sometimes she'll say like if you're gonna go to prison go to federal prison yeah I agree it's the best of the

39:45prisons yes like she was she was out in Phoenix in this like work camp there aren't any fences there's like just the city that is run by the inmates and it was really interesting to see her grow and change within that community-based environment I yeah I'm a strong proponent for that because it really did help her she'd done some schooling like she got her high school diploma and in state prison but like federal prison she had a job she learned a trade she

40:16learned all of these things and also her desire for improvement was so obvious there was like yeah it wasn't just there was some responsibility like I think one of the things that you were talking about about what changed and how how are we able to make this happen if Stevoni was still in that blaming stage where she used to be you know like if that caseworker hadn't done this or if that whatever I'd have my kids sorry no it's true that's where I was so but

40:50in federal prison there was some accountability there was some shifts in like responsibility there was some maturity emotionally yeah there was a maturity emotionally for me as well in that like seeing and envisioning that I could be friends with this person wasn't just like before that I was mostly doing it for my kids sacrificing like my time and my things for my kids that's what you do as a mom but I began to care about Stevoni in different ways like I

41:22really was invested in her being successful because if her if she was successful all of us would have more success our whole family would be better off if she could be better off and really believing that she could do it and that like when she got out of federal prison it was it was amazing she even chose to stay longer which was so weird they offered me to get out early to go to a halfway house and I was too scared of getting out and messing up at a

41:52halfway house because if I would have messed up I would have gotten new charges and I wouldn't have gotten out of the federal system so I was like nope I'm just gonna stay the extra month and terminate my case but that the feds because I was so paranoid about me making a mistake so but coming home was amazing I think all of us were super excited they threw me what's called like a coming out party which is pretty awesome that actually concludes chapter one so there is

42:28there is a chapter two so yeah when you came home it really was like a different a different chapter a different chapter in our lives you were in such a radically different place than even the year that you've been there before and so it was it was really good to experience that connectedness but I was I was 100% invested in your well-being and I I don't regret that investment at all I just I had to do an assignment I'm in grad school right now and I had to do an

43:03assignment in my cultural diversity class about who is one of the most like in influential supports in your life and I couldn't there wasn't like of course my mom you know but like everybody says your mom whatever but I had to think like who is a person that has been there and I had to choose her because I don't know where I'd be without her because she invested so much in my recovery and was so supportive of me through like every step and so I had to like copy of

43:33the assignment and send it to her because I was like I just need you to know this but it's just she did she supported me and then we started to build our relationship um I got a coming out party yes tell that story so well at this point we're kind of normalized in our little family right nobody nobody's feeling super awkward so we have a family we have a we have a party her coming out party she just gotten a job and started a job and so like things were really looking up because it was really hard for you to find a job and so

44:05she's worse like hanging out together and that so that's her ex-husband my current husband and our two children right it's really interesting little thing but we were all we were all fine yeah this guy from work calls her and it's like hey what are you doing what's up I'd like take you out she's like well I'm hanging out my ex-husband's house would you like to come over and like he was like hard pass but things she's married to that guy now but like it was

44:35it was just sometimes we'd get wake-up calls like when we go out in public or something you know there'd be this mom mom thing and this was way before it was cool to be lesbian you know and so it just people would give us strange looks and all sorts of stuff when we go out with our husband we just look really infertile polygamous you know but like it I think when we finally said like we didn't actually care what other people thought that was a big step in in at least at that time because yeah I would introduce I'd be like oh I was hanging

45:07out with Stevoni and people would look at me so weird like why why are you doing that why are you going and hanging out with her like you weren't even on a visit with the kids you did it like you just went and did stuff because you enjoy her yeah but that's that's really what it took I think for us to move through and be where we are is we had to actually care about each other in in a different way that wasn't about like oh well we just get together because of the kids but yeah we did get together because of the kids I think we get

45:40together a lot less now certainly because the kids are adults and it's just not but when they were little like we would spend so we decided that Christmas we didn't want to have two Christmases it's so dumb and so we she would come to my house and spend the night on Christmas morning and like as a kids got older I went to her house like just it we built our family in routines and in acceptance and belonging yes I love that that we all belong we all

46:12belong just simply because we we decided to do this all together hey yeah and I don't think our kids I I do think that our kids are way better because of it because they never had to choose they never had to feel like oh I I need to do this for my mom or for well I was mommy she was mom that's what they call us even like they would use our names like they still do yeah my kids call me Aymee

46:42or mom yeah and I do not hear the difference I don't either and so it's just it became this like really and what was so funny when they were little sometimes they would say mom and neither one of us we would just like oh I thought you were talking to her so yeah that that title like oh man when Lexi first called me mom I'm gonna go back for a second first time Lexi called me mom was in front of Stevoni which was so hard and awkward but when you let go of those

47:13titles when you let go of needing to be the mom or the dad and you're like oh I'm a mom yeah yeah just the other day when I introduced you like this is my kid's mom and you're like and this is my kid's mom yeah we just love to make people's eyes go what are you this lesbian yeah yeah it just what she's right once you let go of that like jealousy and and our kids gained from that they came to moms and two dads and multiple sets of grandparents and you

47:44know never had to choose oh I'm gonna go to Christmas here or spend this holiday here or spend my birthday here I mean we celebrated their birthdays together it was just it was everything and you know it's just amazing and I think I think that was the best gift that we could give our kids yeah was to have that and and I'll tell you right now like our kids have their own little issues they're young adults but they are probably the most like well-adjusted when it comes to

48:18not abusing substances they want nothing to do with that not in any type of criminal trouble at all in fact you know they are very yeah they never went to jail yeah we're weird I know so far well and it'll be okay if they do yeah yeah just very and and emotionally compassionate to people I so I worked what some after I adopted the kids the DCFS felt like this place that I should

48:49work for 10 years so I did my time there but like I've seen so many different ways to adopt and so many different people who have perceptions about adoption and I was really always blown away like people would think if I just do these things right if I just do these things then it will erase all of that trauma and in some ways I bought into that sometimes too but I think what really helped us was to find acceptance for what had happened like I don't think

49:24our kids are ashamed of your story I think if anything they let they're like you know my one mom's been to prison yeah but like I there's no there's nothing to hide there's no even if there is there was a few times when they were teenagers that they would like triangulate us and and then we'd be like what I'm not gonna mention any names but like they or you know sometimes

49:54it would be like well I'm gonna go over to Stevoni's house because I can do that over there and then she would have to call me and say hey this is what they said and I'm really that's bull crap and we did that I guess that's an kind of what we did so we really co-parented our kids and they would come over and spend time with me and we physically when we would do drop-off and pick up we would have a big conversation we usually hung out for an hour or so while we did

50:26that and it was constant communication about what the kids were doing what behaviors they were having you know we called each other all the time most of the time the kids did not pull anything on us but it did happen a couple times as they got a little bit older to do that trying those boundaries you know figure out if you're safe or not but like it was it as you know even through the really there were really challenging parts I don't I don't think that we had kids that were just easy there were some things that were really challenging and

50:58if I hadn't had Stevoni they're sitting in the courtrooms with me sitting in all of those things with me I I don't know what I would have done I would have been so lost I these people that are that don't understand you're gaining you're gaining an extra parent yes when I needed respite hey go to your mom yep and and trusting in that and feeling like that was okay and that didn't happen overnight but I don't think that it could have happened if we couldn't

51:28have let go of like living in jealousy yeah right like there are jealousies there's times when you're like wait do you love her more than me and then you remember oh that's that's what a child thinks adult adult maturity says my kids can absolutely love as much as I can love them equally and different our kids can love us equally and different yeah yeah we always talked about our jealousies too yeah I think that like we'd always say I'm a little bit jealous

51:58about this and it made it easier for us I think yeah normalizing that vulnerable yeah well that we couldn't we couldn't pretend that we were like this Hallmark card family yeah we're not a Hallmark card family we're this weird weird family but I I am so I'm so grateful that we were able to go outside of the box of people trying to erase histories or people like and not to

52:28bring up the twins as much anymore because it feels a little bit trying to some of their privacy but like when I so when they when the kids turned 18 so that was the girls came and lived with Stevoni like within a few months of turning 18 and then Lexi decided that she also needed to go and live with Stevoni so she had a 19 year old and two 18 year olds just boom here you go you're the birth mom yeah how's rough my twin daughters have a lot of trauma from

53:04being completely cut off from from their family and again you know I'm not trying to like badmouth their adopted family I think they're great people and they did the best that they could do with what they have but you know it I'm gonna challenge that because I think I think that they were given an example because I was talking to them the whole time it's true I was saying to them hey things are safe things are appropriate things are going okay not the whole time

53:34yeah but for a while because then they finally cut us all off and that whatever that's whatever it I think people acting out of fear make really interesting choices so I'm gonna say that they were acting out of fear but I don't think that they like had no idea what how to do it different they did know how to do it different and they had people telling them hey you don't have to cut them off you don't have to do this and they're like nope that's what we're gonna do maybe that's I I still have I still have a lot of bitter feelings and maybe you

54:07maybe you've forgiven a lot more and because you've had to you've been like with you've had to do the exact same thing that I had to do for you yeah that's such an interesting thing that I don't even know that I've put together because yeah yeah you have to be because you're literally the adopt so Stevoni actually adopted one of the twins yes I did after they so she's legally my legally and biologically my daughter again so but she's now the adoptive

54:38parent to those parents and you have to you have to love them yeah you because they're your kids parents and I'm still I'm still stuck in some because I don't know how to do that but she also was there with the trauma of them losing their siblings where I was in prison and I didn't see everything that happened and so she had to work through that so I understand well and I feel I feel lied to and betrayed to be fair because I was told your family will never stop

55:09talking to you will never do that and then within months of finalizing their adoption they were like nah this is a bad idea yeah and never spoke to us again I mean that's not true that's not true they sent us what three pictures maybe over the years yeah yeah that but that was a trauma and a loss that was unnecessary I was not an unreasonable person I was yeah there was there was just fear and and I think people so I've also I've also done like therapy with

55:40adult adoptees and adult adoptees whose parents like don't don't allow for a space to talk about adoption because they're sad they're sad about their child's own adoption story and they bring their own grief to the situation and their own crap we all do but if you're unwilling to acknowledge that you were bringing a whole baggage of garbage to your adoption story and you're like no I'm perfectly fine you're wrong you're there's there's pain there's grief

56:12there's loss in every role within adoption but if you tell a child like oh no we're just all a big happy family now we just forget about that other stuff but they'll they'll they'll do some interesting things to figure it out and my girls are struggling like really struggling crushing for developing your identity and feeling like you have to mask or hide yeah this piece of who you are yeah I think I always kind of felt like they were bad there was something

56:44wrong with them because of where they came from so yeah there's just so many there I don't want to get on in bad-mouth people but I just there were so many stories that I heard about how their closed adoption happened that just shattered my heart and was just like unnecessary and completely out of fear to try to keep them away and guess what it didn't work yeah so we're here to tell you that doesn't work don't anybody do it no I'll always reach out and and I

57:18think that was probably the biggest thing that that I that got me through those 16 years of not seeing them was that they're gonna find me someday yeah so and they did and move right in and now it's been a whirlwind yeah so I think stories yeah yeah I don't I I know what made it work for us what made it work for us was compassion and like seeing that what we were doing was actually in the best interest of our kids whereas I don't know that a lot of mental health

57:51professionals are like open they're even understand that you can yep they're still bought into this idea that says oh keep your family safe keep those other people you know their family over there away from them and safety like even if somebody had never gotten sober and frankly she never got sober we wouldn't have this thing my kids had grandparents my kids had aunts and uncles and kids had this whole family that loved them from the day they were like even thought

58:23up just not something I could ever offer them with my family and yeah if you cut off because of safety you're making the wrong choice find ways there's so many like I think about social media being available and all of this stuff that's now available that we didn't have okay if we could have seen pictures of the twins on social media even that would have felt like a decent connection that we wouldn't have had to like catch up right or whatever but the fact yeah

58:57there were just so many positive things in open adoption that and nobody I have a miracle I get I get to have like the best bio mom ever who is adaptable and flexible and sober and all of those things and like yes I get I get that I made choices you don't have to flatter me about it I know that that's true but I also get you and other people don't get that but I just encourage people every time that I talk about open adoption find out where your boundary is

59:30and then I'd like to say what is one step further that you would take it to open it up just one step further and why are you unwilling to do that what is that about is it about you is it about your child is it about them there are unsafe people out there I get it but that one step of allowing a phone call that one step of allowing like an email address open it up one more step and what I found for myself is that as I went step by step by step by step I got

60:01to have an amazing relationship with someone and I'm forever grateful for that and her willingness to do that helps me tremendously become the person that I am today and in my recovery that her belief in me and her interest in my life and my my success was like a catalyst for so many things and where I am today that's so beautiful thank you so much Bo thank you thank you do you

60:31want to talk about where you are today it's just been a it's been a privilege to watch 70s journey I yeah I've watched her go from being like a tire technician when she first got out and she was the fastest tire technician in the county fastest like not the fastest female the fastest and I changed them my tires so she did she was really awesome she was super awesome and then like she switched over as many do to like mental health and substance use and I have watched her

61:02grow in being able to help other people and what a gift that she is to people because she is able to say I did it you too can do it like I joke all the time about how the same county that locked her up for crimes a lot of my crimes they now give her like a six-figure budget and say hey will you just manage that for us and you got it right yeah like she works so she works at the

61:35prisoner access to recovery program at was such behavioral health and is like a department lead person and she's in grad school and I am so impressed with her and I talked about Aymee because she's incredible not only did she do her time at DCFS which going through school and social work that's kind of always been one thing that that you're learning about and I just knew that that was no

62:06place I could ever be she touched so many lives and changed so many families lives I still hear about her and and like the amazing things that she's done like when specific clients come in and know her whatever but she also put herself through grad school and I call her my therapist because I call her my substance use counselor she's also the last so the last several years since

62:44she's got divorced I know it's been difficult for her she's taken on the role of being a single mom and has really had to I guess find herself outside of a marriage and she has started her own business too and I got the pleasure of interning at a vision that business during my my bachelor's degree and the environment that she has there is you walk into that place and

63:17you just feel incredible like and she has worked so hard at it and she's also she taught me how to be a parent because there was so much I didn't know and she also taught me how to be a friend I don't have like hardly any girlfriends at all I don't really like hang out with people but she's always been the person that I can call when I need something good or bad and I'm just she's just

63:48amazing now I mean she's always been amazing but I just I don't know what I could do what how my life would be without her I think I yeah I'm so grateful for all the things that we've built together and yeah that is yeah I have about the best thing that I ever did in my life you know it's it's this that's for sure talking about it really makes me miss our kids being little and all the things because life's so crazy now like we hardly get together like we

64:19used to or anything and just it makes me miss it well we just want to give a huge thanks to Stevoni and Aymee again I loved this conversation and how vulnerable open and just clearly that communicates so many really important aspects of connection and relationships in the adoption sphere

64:52yes I love how supportive they are to one another how they're validating to each other and to each other's motherhood instead of being threatened by one another they really like back one another up right and I love that they have found a way to within their family like co-parent and make this very child centric relationship where it's resulted in so much love and trust between the

65:27two of them as well yeah one thing that stands out to me and I think of you know the first time adoptive parents going into a situation where they might have nothing in common with the birth parent and in this case you know drugs may have been involved and anyway there's so many differences between people and it takes work to connect with people and to form relationships and sometimes you go through these storms together and you know all for the sake of these kids that connect

65:59us and I think this was just a beautiful story of what happens for kids when parents adoptive parents biological parents come together and try to create this relationship this normal for for them and it yeah it takes a lot of work and sometimes it's scary and sometimes it may feel like unsafe there's all these emotions and feelings around that but ultimately if we're doing the very best we can for our kids it's going to bless them over and over and over again

66:32I really love that and I love that idea that as the adults in these relationships it's on us to really be the grown-ups here right and to forge these connections and relationships and it's not always going to be easy and it does it takes both sides working at it right for sure but there was some give and take throughout the relationship and throughout time as Stevoni was getting healthy and they were able to give one another this grace and understanding as

67:06they worked and continued to like together strive for this relationship that they have now and I think often in our lives we'll find that there can be things that come up that make it hard to keep an open adoption right or to keep a relationship going that's challenging and maybe emotionally burdensome but if both parties can really focus on what matters most and that is the children

67:41right if both parties are focusing on the well-being of all of the children involved then it's going to work and it's going to be worth it and I mean I want to respect the privacy of other people that were spoken about in the episode but I just thought it was really poignant at the end that you know she had had other children that were adopted into different situations where it became close and you know right when the they turned 18 the immediate thing was let's

68:14connect with our birth birth bomb and yeah that's a natural desire I think I mean obviously we're not trying to project that onto every person but it makes sense and we've talked on the show before about how when as adoptive parents we vilify biological family members or don't talk well about them around our children or in general like even if our children aren't around they're going to feel that and they're going to feel like that is part of their

68:48own yes part of their identity and that's like a reflection on them because we're talking bad about a part of them right and a part of who they are and it's so important to remember that loving your child also means loving their biological family and that their biological family is part of them and if you really want your child to feel your love as an adoptive parent you need to embrace all of them and that includes all of their family yep even when it's

69:19hard even when it's not convenient you have to do it for the kids sake for sure yep I'd love how that was painted in this conversation me too and I really really appreciate that Stevoni is so open and talking about her personal experiences and challenges with addiction that is something that's a very prevalent challenge that many people experience but it's not spoken about very often and it's challenging to talk about and I really appreciate that

69:52she was open about that and shared with us because it's something that happens a lot especially in the adoption community and there's hope and yeah redemption and she's an amazing person yeah and she enriches her kids lives and it's this beautiful lesson that it doesn't like if someone's having a struggle today it doesn't define the rest of their life yeah and kind of a tangent off of that they they spoke about this I think it's really important that you know she

70:25wasn't telling the kids yeah Aymee wasn't telling the kids how Stevoni was quote-unquote sick like I'm doing our quotes right now and then all of a sudden that sickness led to her going to prison right and so they're both of them encouraging like tell the truth obviously age appropriately would tell the truth and she wasn't like lying but yeah and then just making it more open and transparent I agree that kids can understand a lot more than we give

70:56them credit for yeah I really like the the reference to going to jail or prison as adult timeout yeah it's like kids connect with them man I think I could talk forever about this conversation but I'm just super grateful for again for both of them for being so willing to be just so open and sharing so much yes I felt like it was such a helpful conversation for me and I hope it's been helpful for you too yeah thank you so much for your continued

71:27listening we try so hard to provide really good content for the adoption community and hope that you found this helpful yes as we are wrapping up our current season we're getting ready for a special November adoption month series that will be a little bit more frequent than our current episodes and so we'll have a little more information about that soon and in the meantime if you would like to rate our podcast or share it with others who might benefit from it

71:59we would love to help other people in their journeys yeah and again we just do this because we love the adoption community and we want to share people's perspectives and opinions and ideally just paint the best future for all of our adoptee friends whether those are our kids or someone else we're connected to yeah yeah this really started off as us wanting to help people destigmatize open adoption and find less fear and that possibility and it's grown

72:31into a lot more but I think this episode ties right in right that you can be so empowered by allowing more love into your life yeah so like Lanette said like it share it whatever you can to promote the podcast in the adoption space so that we can help reach more people thanks so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project

73:21you

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