Inclusivity and Openness with Ellie Wynn

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 74. We are the Nelsons. I'm Shaun. And I'm Lanette. Today we have another adoptee interview. We're super excited. Anytime we have a chance to share adoptee voices. Today we talked to Ellie Wynn. Ellie was adopted at birth and reconnected with her biological family when she was about 14. And today she talks about being inclusive of adoptees and how open adoption changed her relationships and how that factored in when that dynamic changed when she was about 14.

0:34Yeah, I really enjoy just how open she is about sharing her feelings, experiences and thoughts. And the more that we understand about adoptees experiences, particularly in our case, those that have had open adoptions, I think we can learn a lot. So we're really grateful to Ellie and for her willingness to be on the podcast. We'll go ahead and jump to that conversation now.

1:05All right, so we are here on the podcast with Ellie Wynn. Thank you so much for being here. Yeah. To start off, we're going to have you introduce yourself and share a bit about who you are. So, my name is Ellie and I am 30 years old. I just turned 30 in December. My super quick adoption story. My parents had seven failed adoptions before they got to me. They were promised a baby seven times and the mother or the family changed their mind. So they were kind of taken back, you know, seven times. And the final eighth time, my mom was like, I don't know if I can have my heart broken anymore.

1:39This will be the last time kind of thing. And they ended up finding me through a friend of the family. It was across state lines and it ended up being through an agency in the end. But that's super quick about me and I'm in childcare. So I love taking care of kids and I've done that for the last 13 years. So awesome. And which region are you in? You don't have to be specific or anything. But yeah, I'm in Michigan. Yeah. So that's where we ended up. Yeah. And that's not where you grew up. But that's where you know.

2:09No. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's it was a whole weird story. My parents were in Arizona and my birth mother was in Kansas and the laws were different in Missouri. So when she gave birth to me, she drove to Missouri. So there wouldn't have to be like a two month hold and that type of thing. So it's a super crazy story in my opinion. Yeah. Wow. All right. And so you are the only child in the family that you grew up in. Yes. Yep. All right. Awesome. Well, we're so glad that you're here. And thank you. Yeah. Just so appreciate it.

2:41So you grew up with an open adoption, correct? Yeah. Can you tell us what that looks like for you? Yeah. So it was open in the sense that I knew who they were. It wasn't officially open that I didn't meet them until I was about 14. And that was earlier than we had planned. You know, initially they had kind of always said when she was 18, you know, we'll let her make that decision for herself and that type of thing. And it just so happened that we were going to be in town, the exact same town that she lived in for a family member's wedding.

3:11And I was always, as most girls are, super mature for my age. And so I was like, I know I want to meet her. Please let me meet her. I want to. And so they reached out to her and she was like, yeah, of course, you know, it's earlier than I had planned, but I'm totally ready. And if she's ready, then, you know, that's great. And so we met like at a Panera and we spent like three hours there together, I think. And I was 14, like I said, when I met her. So it was always open that I always knew who she was. I always knew who my biological father was and kind of where I came from and how, you know, I came to be and my whole adoption story and that.

3:46But I didn't know them or have contact until I was about 14. All right. And then did that contact continue from that point? Yeah. Yeah. And after that, so my birth mother was always super forward. And the fact that she was like, you can reach out to me as much as you want to, or you don't have to. I don't want you to feel pressured. And she's like, I will reach out occasionally if that's okay. If you don't want me to, that's fine. And she also was like, I know you're young and your preferences might change. If that changes, please tell me. Like, she's always been amazing.

4:17She's one of the most amazing people in my entire life. And I always continued that dialogue with her for as I mean, I still talk to her to this day and my biological father. I met him, but I don't, I don't necessarily like him as much as a person as I do my biological mother. So I talked to him occasionally. You know, I talked to his kids. So my, I call them my brother and my sisters. I talked to them way more than I talked to him, but I do talk to him occasionally.

4:48All right. Wow. So I love that your biological mom and you have this great connection where she just really said, Hey, I want you to navigate this relationship and tell me what you're feeling, what you need. Yeah. Yeah. She's always been amazing. That's really awesome. So with your experience with your adoption, becoming open in the middle of your childhood, what changes did you feel after that shift in yourself, if any. So in myself, I kind of noticed, I don't know, it almost felt like I went from being a kid to more like a young adult. Like it, there was that difference.

5:24Like, I felt more grown up than, you know, than my peers, because it's like, I went to meet my biological mother and like I had conversations like what were like, how did I come to be like why was I was I a mistake in some parking lot or something or you know, like just what were the circumstances I was always in, in my case I was always, I would say I was adopted people would be like so you're like a crack baby like your mother was addicted to drugs and she didn't want you and it was like, no, no that's that's not what it was at all and so I always, and I always knew that

5:57but I wanted to ask her for myself. So knowing stuff little I don't know knowing something like that it made me feel more adult and growing grown up. Yeah, so it sounds like it was kind of a coming of age sort of experience. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How do you think that your experience as an adoptee led you to where you are today. So the super big obvious one is I met my fiance when I was 17, or yeah, when I was 17, and his ex girlfriend was six months pregnant with his baby and so I had a baby of it was mine but not mine going to be mine in like three months when I turned 17, and her mom was not always there

6:40all the time and so I, it was just so natural for me to step in and be like this, this is my baby, like it was never a second doubt and she's I'm still with her dad and I'm still her mom and she's my daughter and she just turned 12 and she, she calls me my first name to my face but she's like when she's talking to her friends she'll say like, my mom can take us or my mom can pick us up or this and that so it, that was the biggest one to me that it was never a question in my mind like, do I take this child on and love them and care for them

7:14and fight for little things like I don't want them to say certain words or you know just little things that parents teach their children and that was all just such second nature to me because it's like why, why wouldn't you just because they're not your blood that would make sense. It's really beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. So what would you want potential adoptive parents to know about adoption before they really consider it. So adoption doesn't have to be scary and the circumstances that the kids are coming from doesn't always have to be terrible horrible circumstances and yeah there are circumstances like that and there are children that are skipped over because of the circumstances

7:55that they're left in, but it doesn't always have to be that like I that the mother was addicted to crack and that she got pregnant and didn't want a baby and I would I would probably venture to guess that most children of adoption were wanted, and they weren't able to provide the circumstance that they wanted to be able to provide them, it would be my opinion at least. Yeah. So, what about open adoption in particular, excuse me. Do you think effective adoptive parents should know or consider.

8:27Um, so I think and I know sometimes there's not an option and sometimes the biological family doesn't want this but I think if there's ever an option or if you're able to say like I want an open adoption if possible I think open adoption should be the way, absolutely. And I mean like, like gold standard because I think it's so much easier for a parent to explain to a child like hey, here's this other person that you came from instead of just like a mythical figure that's like someone out there and you feel less like if

8:57you're walking down the street you might walk past your biological father and have no idea type feeling whereas if it's an open adoption it's like yeah I know his name is john Dooley or you know whatever it is so you know just something like that so I would say open adoption, if you have any choice at all. That would be one thing that you should look at. Awesome. So if you could go back in time and teach your community from when you were growing up. Any one thing about adoption what do you really wish they had known.

9:27Um, so again the big one was that the circumstances that kids are coming from it doesn't always have to be terrible awful circumstances. And also that it, you don't when you adopt a child and again the circumstances can be different whether they how young they are and stuff but if they're super young that's your child that's not somebody else's child that you're adopting that is your kid, and it's, I mean like for Christmas like you don't say oh, I mean you wouldn't ask did you spend Christmas with your mom and dad you just know that you spent Christmas with your mom and dad so it would be stuff like that but it's their your child that's your child now it's not someone else's kid that you adopted they were created by someone else but that is your child.

10:10Awesome. So, growing up did you have others in your life or in your circle as friends or anything who were also adopted who maybe I did. Yeah, yeah, I had two or three, and we and one of them I was super duper close to like best friends and it was like a bonding experience that you know like oh we're both adopted and like oh you know we're cool because we're not related to anybody in our family, you know type thing and it was you know joking about like hey we could be siblings and we would never know and I mean I knew who my biological

10:43family was again but it was still fun to joke like that. So there were a few others that were that I knew of that were adopted and then now that I'm older I have friends and, you know, neighbors and stuff that have adopted, but it was nice having people that were a bit closer to me to relate to because I felt a little bit like a little bit less like a, you know, an outstander. Yeah. Yeah, and maybe helpful to have other people when those stigmas came from outside. Yeah, yeah.

11:13Right, have someone else jump in and be like hey I'm also not a crack baby, you know type thing. Yeah, it's just so inappropriate and sad. Yeah, it is wildly inappropriate. Yes. So, we've kind of been talking about this but is there anything else you want to talk about that you've struggled with regarding adoption, or things that you wish were talked about more. Yeah, it's not really a struggle I guess I just I didn't realize until I didn't realize this about myself that I think adoption is the reason they gave me this opinion.

11:43So we've my fiance and I have been trying to conceive for a couple years now and we're having, you know, troubles conceiving. And I know so once the original methods aren't working then you look at IVF adoption you know surrogacy and that type of thing, and it was always a very clear cut to me that was like you know I'm not sure that I'm interested in adopting for myself, or having a surrogate for myself, I think that I would rather have biological children for myself and if I'm not able to that's okay.

12:16And that's fine and obviously I don't have any stigma towards it, or against adopted children or children of surrogacy at all. But I think it was more so like I always wanted to look like someone that was always a big thing growing up that like I would look at my parents or my family and be like man, I don't really look like anybody though and I mean I would look like my dad at certain times or things like that but I always wanted to look like someone and so it felt like if I was going to go through the expenses and the trouble I would have of course the child's always worth it but I also have a 12 year old to think about and she just got braces put on and I mean there's a lot of expenses that come with big kids.

12:53So I was, I was surprised that that was the line that I was very clear to me from the beginning, that it was like I'm not sure that I'm interested in it for myself, but I couldn't be a bigger advocate of it for, you know, everybody else. Yeah, you know it's really interesting the last couple of adoptees I've talked to, they're both also women in their 30s or 40s, and they both talked about the struggle of infertility and adopted person when you haven't had anyone that you've ever lived with,

13:23who shares your views and like looks like you and just that ache and that desire for that. I'm really sorry. And health issues, came across a lot of health issues a lot and a lot of time they go to the doctor and they're like so does your, you know, does your mom or dad or your grandparents and it's like well, I'm adopted so I don't really know I know. But you didn't have that. Right, yeah I have a very brief history of my biological mother but my biological father is also adopted in a closed adoption. So there's really not much for me to know as far as he goes, it was always kind of a mystery like, I'm not really sure I have no idea

13:58what runs in my genes or and it was always kind of a mystery like testing to figure out what it was. Oh yeah that's really hard. Okay, so did your adoptive family do anything that you really feel like stood out to you, helping to connect you to your heritage or your biological roots. So as far as heritage, my dad is like he's an old man he's he'll be 74 and so he's just a typical old guy and he's Irish and he's very proud of the fact that he's Irish.

14:31And so, from the time I was really little and again I've always known that I was adopted there wasn't ever like any bomb dropped on me or anything. I've always said like I'm Irish, I'm with you, like it doesn't matter I'm going to choose to be Irish and so I've always just taken on his side even though my mom, I mean she's German and Polish, I'm way more interested in being Irish, and I was like well I'm adopted so I just I'm going to get I get to pick what I want to be you know like I could go back and look at heritage and roots and I could do ancestry and I was like, but to be more honest, it's more fun to get to pick what I want to do so I've asked my biological mother, you know, do you happen to know what your ancestry is or your roots and she has you know like German you know European,

15:11you know roots and stuff but I've never been super interested in it. To be honest, I'm more interested in being Irish like my dad and so I find out about him and he can tell me about all the old days of potatoes and beer or whatever. That's awesome I love that. So what do you wish adoption education looked like do you have any thoughts on that. Um, I, again, I just I keep coming back to all the time when I was younger there were always kids and even like little old ladies that would ask in the sweetest way possible like, Oh, how come you were adopted like wanting to know why I was adopted, and I think

15:45that education should look a lot more like a lot of the time that again it comes back to the circumstance it's not coming from terrible circumstances and then again it can be from kids that were young and irresponsible with the sex education and they got pregnant and that's what my case was that she got pregnant too young she wanted to provide a better foundation and education that she thought she was going to be able to when she was 16 and having a child given to me at 17 I completely relate with that and I know how much of a struggle

16:18I had and the only difference was that we have, I have parents that can help me, you know, money wise, more than she did I have a lot more financial support than she did, and I can't imagine having to try and do all of this and raise my child without all the help that I had at my age so again I wish it would include more education on. Sometimes it's just because things happen and circumstances aren't great, but it's not always terrible, I mean, you know, drug riddled children.

16:49Yeah. So in the adoption community there's so many different voices and thoughts and reasonings on different things. What do you feel like needs to change in the adoption world. Yeah, but in the adoption world, I think, for me, verbiage is the big thing and again like with my daughter because there's in video games video games are the most toxic environment that you could ever find and that's always will you're fine the worst jokes and you'll always had people make jokes like oh this is why you're adopted this is why nobody loves you and it's like okay whatever you learn to brush those things off.

17:26But like for my kid she plays games just like anyone else and I heard her say that once like this is why you're adopted and I talked to her afterwards and I was like you know it's not your job to change the world and you don't have to talk to every single person that you hear say that and sit them down and explain why they shouldn't say that and blah blah blah. But you can be different, you can you can make not make that joke and I'm not saying you have to be a preacher and shove it down everyone else's throat, but you can do that differently. So just things like that and like she has asked you know she's a preteen she doesn't think in her mind is often flighty and I love her dearly but she's a preteen girl.

18:03And so she'll ask things and sometimes she'll ask questions and she'll say like real mom or real dad, and I'll say, well, you know, my real mom and dad that's Nana and Papa, but if you mean my biological parents, then that's blah blah blah and so I feel like verbiage is a big thing because my real mom and dad are the ones that raised me that's the ones that taught me values and morals and compassion and my biological parents are different people.

18:34Yeah, I have an 11 year old daughter so I feel like a lot of these conversations are things that I hear to with her when she's her friends about her adoption story. Right, right. Yeah. Very interesting. So we've heard from some adoptees who grew up with openness, that transitioning into adulthood and managing your open adoption relationships can be kind of tricky. So I'm just curious how did your adoptive parents help you manage your relationships with your biological family particularly your birth mom, or your biological.

19:04Um, so my adoptive parents, it, I don't feel like there was much of a shift to when I became an adult because they armed me so well before I ever met them. And again, I know, I don't think that they would have ever let me meet her if they didn't feel like I was emotionally prepared or I felt like I was being forced to or I couldn't speak my opinion and how I felt afterwards. They know that I've always been a very outspoken kid and I'm willing to talk about what the problem is or what I mean whatever it is. And so they were pretty sure that if we're sending her into this and she doesn't end up liking it, she's going to tell us that and then we can take her out. And I've always known that they'd be there, like I could tell them even if I didn't feel like I could tell

19:46somebody else I could tell them, I don't want to do this anymore, and they would pull me out and just take it over and be like yep so Ellie doesn't want to do this anymore. That's all that needs to take care of it. And so I feel like I've been armed so well since the beginning that there wasn't really a change going into adulthood because I've been, I've been very outspoken and I mean at 14 years old, I was, you know, on AIM and you know instant messaging my biological father and we were just talking about whatever it was. And I had swore and he had said like, don't, you're, you don't speak to your dad that way. And I like, I remember like being, I mean it was online but I remember the reaction that I had in person was like, are you kidding like my dad, who do you think you are and I mean so I was, I absolutely

20:32left out on him at 14 and I was like no no you are a sperm donor at best. And I mean I just completely went off so I felt like I've always been willing to speak my mind and he always like was like oh yeah you're right I didn't, I didn't think about that and it kind of like put him in his place and he didn't realize it so again having done that when I was 14, 15 years old when I had met them, there wasn't ever a huge change going into adulthood because I've always felt like I could be honest with them.

21:03And worst case in my mind it was like, what do I have to lose I mean if I'm completely honest with them, what are they going to do like leave, never talk to me again I mean that would be awful but I have my parents for a reason. Yeah, I feel like this theme and everything that you're talking about is that you have felt like you're empowered to be able to speak what you feel and share your truth without feeling like you're not able to do that with all like with biological adoptive parents,

21:34I think that's really awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's awesome. So do you have any feelings like differences that you saw after reuniting with biological family Do you think there was any shift with that. Um, the only shift was my desire to know them all more, and I mean like I had a small curiosity about it before and it was you know like I said it was more of a, you know, what if I just walk past her you know down the street and like we were in a different state that was never going to happen but still as a kid you're always like, what if you know what if that would that would be really cool

22:08So I, the only shift afterwards was that I was more like we had met you know like I said it up in era and that's when she sat down and was like, so this is my sister and this is my uncle that passed away and you know this is my mom and this is my grandma and you know she kind of showed me her whole family and I was like, oh, I'm so like, this is my biological grandma so like what does she do you know what did she, where did she work and this is my biological aunt and what is she like and it was you know, by the time I was probably 16 or so then it became like, so did you know

22:42like mental health disorders or you know like I'm asking you know about like health related questions and stuff like that. So that was the shift it was like specific curiosity like oh like you know what did Wilma used to do versus like oh I wonder if that could be her you know. Yeah. Now I think that's so interesting so just a really quick random plug. We actually have an episode where there was this birth mom that we talked to and she shared the story of when she reunited with the daughter that she placed.

23:13And it was in a different state where they literally like walked past each other kind of didn't do it actually happened in this story so anyway, when you said that it just reminded me I'll send you the link but yeah, my mind. Yeah, I do. There is the, I do kind of have like a like lightning strike story like that when I met her. So when we were like sitting in this Panera, every woman that would walk in I would like ask my mom and dad I'd be like, is that her is that her and, and they would be like no it's not her and like they they know who they're looking for. And I felt like it, I before the person even walked in the room I felt like a shift in like the air around me. And when one person walked in the door.

23:57I was like, my parents I was like, that's her, isn't it, they're like, yep, that's her. And so like 15 different women had come in and we were in a large downtown you know like Panera 15 different women and come in and I was looking for general characteristics like dark hair brown eyes, you know, generally thin, but 15 different people and I would ask is that her is that her is that her and then the first one, or some, you know, the random you know whatever woman to walk in I was like, that, that's her,

24:27isn't it, and they're like, yeah, that's her. I was like, Whoa, I just yeah I'm like, he was new body electricity like I've never, I don't think I've ever experienced anything like that in my life until my daughter and certain like things like in points with my daughter like I was explaining to her that my birth mother had placed me against her family's wishes her family wanted her to keep me and they were going to help raise me and I was like, you know how incredibly difficult that would be if you were to come to me and say

24:58I'm pregnant and I think I want to place the baby, and I were to say no keep it we can help you we can do it we can help you with everything. He had said, I never felt anything like this until this moment she had said, well, no offense, but I would do what I felt was right for me, regardless of what you wanted and I was like, that's my girl that's that's what I raised you. That's what I raised you to do and I've never felt anything like it until that minute. That's really beautiful. Wow.

25:30So in your experience, do you have any thoughts on ways that others can support adoptees and help them and facing different struggles or challenges or whatever. Yeah, inclusivity, so even within my own family because everyone, like I mean my extended my aunts and uncles and stuff they're all very inclusive that I'm adopted and they've all been. I mean they don't treat me any different I don't think than anybody else. It's, I just learned about this and it happened when I was younger so I didn't even realize that and I was talking to my mom about it. It's little things like her brother, when my grandma had passed away they were going through and sorting things of hers, and there was this one

26:10necklace that was like a portrait shot of my grandma that was in like real pearl or whatever. And she was like, I got that for grandma, Ellie loved playing with that when she was little, can we have that. And my uncle was like well why would Ellie want it. And she was like because Ellie loved playing with that when she came over here and I gave that to her and she was like, he was like, well why would, why would she care. And it's like why, why wouldn't I, why, why isn't there an automatic assumption. I've been here just as long as any of the other kids they literally were in the hospital room when she gave birth to me. So I've been here just as long as everyone else just because my blood isn't the same.

26:51So I feel like inclusivity in little things like that that you don't realize I don't know why you would ever assume differently that they wouldn't want to be included in things like that, but little things. That's so important to talk about. Thank you. In your experience, do you feel like openness in your adoption affected any trauma or struggles in any way. Not necessarily. I, like I said I always was kind of I always knew the general story from when I was little and I kind of had the general perception and then as I got older they made it more age appropriate and told me more and more about the story as I got older.

27:29And I never felt like there was any, I mean I don't personally feel like I have any trauma or anything again because I've been, I was given such a stable beginning and like I have my mom tells me about how when she was waiting for all the adoptions, you know, all the pending adoptions that she was reading book after book and doing any research that she could like, I know that she was trying so hard and doing as much research as she could, that was possible to make sure that there wasn't as few bumps in the road, as there can be with something as shifting as an adoption is.

28:05Yeah. Thank you. So ultimately, do you feel like the openness mediated any stress or because you don't feel like there's that trauma or do you feel like maybe it's just because of parenting, what are your thoughts on that. I don't really again I don't I think it's just because of parenting I think the only stress that it mediated is that, like, my birth father I'd kind of always been told like he found out that she was pregnant and he was like, I'm out I don't want anything to do with this. And that was always kind of, and it was always given to me a lot nicer way and it was kind of you know he was really young and when he found out that she was pregnant you know he decided to move to Florida and like I asked him about it.

28:46And the only thing was like, man, I can't imagine. I can imagine being overwhelmed by being told that you're having a baby, I can't imagine being like, oh, I'm having a baby and then leaving, and like right away. And it come to find out that then two years later, he got another woman pregnant and that's who my sister is, and he told that woman that he was infertile and he wasn't able to have children. And that was two years after he had signed off on my adoption papers. And so it's, it was things like that that's like man it kind of just reinforces like this is why I am where I am that's I mean there's a reason that I'm supposed to be here, and that he

29:28made the choices that I would want made for me anyways so that was the only stress that it mitigated mitigated. Yeah. All right, do you feel like your perceptions of adoption have shifted over time at all, or do you feel like it's been pretty constant. It's been pretty constant once again I've always been told, I've always been told I was adopted I've always been told the different, you know, environments that children can be adopted from, and it was never. I know there was never a huge shift for me it was always kind of like this, this is just this is how it was you know my mom wasn't able to have kids biologically, they had been trying to adopt.

30:05That's, that's just our story that you know it's just kind of, it's always been pretty steady. Is there anything else that you want to talk about. No, not that I can think of now the, the one only other thing I want to talk about was meeting my birth mother and Panera because I just was just full body chills. When I met her and I, I guess the only other thing was that we ended up so after I met her that was in like September, we ended up going back in December and I spent Christmas with her and her like entire extended family.

30:38And I had me and my mom and my dad there. And so it was really cool to like see that environment like this is me, and I'm, I'm I finally am in a room with people that I share blood relation with. And here's the only person or here's the person that gave me that blood relation, but then here's the people that raised me it made me who I am and I thought that was such a cool dynamic, and for them, you know they have a huge family I think they have like 20 people in it and so they do like Secret Santa you know white elephant gift exchanges, and it was always drawn name out of a hat and so when we were coming to Christmas, it was never like, Oh, how you know how should we do this how should we make them feel included they just tossed our names

31:19right in with everyone else. And they just had it they asked us like hey we do a Secret Santa can you put down like three or four things that you would like and so I was so cool to be like, man, this is 15 years and everybody here knows who I am I mean the young kids probably didn't understand who I was but that's fine. And, um, everybody there knows who I am they know why we're here they know who my parents are and nobody had any, any second questions about it. I mean from the eight from the 90 year old great great great grandparents that were there, down to the youngest that was 10 that was like oh this is, you know, my aunt's baby that she placed for adoption it was like, man, everybody here knows who I am but there's no big like, wow, you know,

32:04sit and look at me like I'm a circus animal or something I was just it was super included and yet I'd never met any of these people, or some of them I hadn't met since I was a newborn. That's beautiful so that felt like a really impactful experience having people who you were blood related to, and your parents who raised you and having everybody together with you. Yeah, yeah, and it was, and it was like we had known each other, our entire I mean we had known each other our entire lives but it was like we had known each other and been interacting with each other our entire lives I mean you're just walking around the

32:35house and you're helping grandma with the hot chocolate and you're helping the kids open up their new Christmas presents and it was just such a cool experience to be so open like welcome with open arms. So beautiful, Ellie, thank you so very much. I love. Thank you so much for reaching out I really appreciate it I'm so glad I got to share my story. It was amazing to hear. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the open adoption project. And thanks so much to Ellie again for sharing her experiences and her thoughts with us.

33:12One thing that stood out to me particularly was when we were talking about culture in our family we try to help our children connect with some of their biological culture and it sounds like her parents did that too, at points, and it was interesting that she wanted to connect more with her adoptive father's culture than any of her biological culture her her adoptive mother's culture and for me I guess that highlighted that we just need to let our adoptee children call the shots and help us understand what what they

33:47think is important, and we can honor the thoughts and feelings that they have. And that reminds me of our discussion in our episode about adopting focus language when we talked about, like you can't just have a blanket statement of, we should all be using these terms because every individual every adoptee is going to have different experiences and preferences, and that went for her and her thoughts on culture as well. Yeah, yeah I really enjoyed talking to Ellie I loved how confident and secure she was with her own opinions.

34:21And beliefs and experiences she's so fun to talk to, and we just love sharing these adoptive voices it's our very favorite. Yeah, we really do. Well, thank you again for listening to this episode, and we'll be back with another episode in two weeks.

34:51Thank you. Thank you.

35:21Thank you.

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