Brianna and Andrew | Ethics in Adoption

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project where we talk about all things adoption. We're the Nelsons, I'm Sean, and I'm Lynette. We're excited to share an interview with our friends the Olsons who are adoptive parents. We love sharing interviews with you because there are so many great stories out there in the adoption world and we love sharing different perspectives. The Olson family loves being outdoors. They enjoy movie nights and taking road trips, especially to the Oregon coast. These days most of their time is spent working on their

0:30house, but if they do have some free time Andrew likes to fish and sing, but not at the same time. And Brianna likes gardening, baking, and especially baking breads and desserts. We really hope you enjoy this episode. We are now on with Brianna and Andrew. Thanks so much guys for joining us. We're

1:06excited to hear from you. Alright to start off we're hoping that you guys can share a bit of your adoption story. Yeah we have been in the adoption world for 12 years. We just said we're done. We're not updating our home study so we can say we're done now, but I guess we're still involved with adoption. We have two girls who we've adopted. One she's 10 now and one is four. Both of them have been

1:37through agency adoption and it's been great experiences and a lot of roller coasters in between. Alright so now we're gonna share a few questions that we received from some of our listeners. The first one is how do you know which adoption agencies are good and which ones to avoid? For us it really comes down to ethics. Like which ones are really ethical and that's kind of a loaded word maybe. But for me I feel like the thing that's been the most important to us was really finding out from birth parents their experiences

2:11with adoption agencies. If you go on an adoption group or you ask adoptive parents generally if they have a successful adoption they're going to speak highly of the agency. Sometimes there might be some things that they had go wrong but I found that usually they're pretty positive. It's been a great experience. It's really so one-sided and the ethics really fall on how they treat the birth parents and expecting parents and how they treat them after

2:42they place or you know pressuring them. So really talking to birth parents is a way to find out if they're gonna be ethical and there are a lot of things. I mean you could Google things to find it online. You know what questions should I ask? You can ask things about race-based pricing and find out do they charge different amounts for a different child of another race. You know you can ask even like you can ask the agencies like give me a breakdown of your fees like how does this work and where is this money going and you know how do you

3:15treat your expecting parents. There are a lot of things you can ask them. Truthfully I always ask them but I don't necessarily trust them. That's when I always want to go and ask birth parents and talk to them because I feel like they're gonna tell you I mean you know you just really I feel like if you want to find someone ethical you have to do more than just do a little research. Do more than talk to the people in charge. Talk to people who have used the services and see what their experience has been. Great advice. That's really good advice. Thank you. Did

3:47you in your adoption journeys feel like you came across agencies where it really was kind of sketchy or you just didn't feel comfortable and how did you face that challenge? There were sometimes a couple agencies and some were earlier on we didn't really know a lot and I was like wow we really kind of felt forced into things and a lot of pressure and didn't have a lot of answers on some of those. We didn't really realize a lot of questions to answer and fortunately it didn't work out. Like there was one agency that I was like I'm so glad that that situation didn't pan out because since then I've learned other things but

4:19there were some situations that we had presented. It was actually through a lawyer. There were two different lawyers that we had talked to and just when they were telling us things basically it came down to wow this sounds really good. Like too good to be true but it also was a lot of money and like wait a second where are you putting this you know the things that they said even just about the expectant parents. It just made me feel so uncomfortable. I was like there's no way I'm going through with this. Again adoptive parents had given glowing

4:51like reports. It just didn't feel right you know. It's a little tricky. I don't want to go into total specifics. Yeah and it's really hard to like you want to have another child and there's maybe a scenario present where that you know your decisions could lead to you having another baby but when you're considering ethics like oh man I can't make this choice because I don't feel right about it even though I want to have another child so badly that's just that's a really hard place to be

5:23put. I had a friend who was like Brianna because I was talking to her like well there's certain things you know you can't do because she was like well I knew if someone like they're gonna buy her car and I was like you know you can't buy a car like you can't there's certain rules like you can't pay for education you can't buy a car you know every state's different but she was like but you know what some people are going to do that and she was like you are gonna be a better parent than them so you just do it it doesn't matter and I was like it does matter it matters to me and to my child who I have to like

5:53realize like how they were brought into our family matters and and I think you have to remember that when you're like you can't become so desperate that you're like I want a child no matter what I mean that's a problem when you sit back and think on that. Don't let the emotion over crowd out ethics like what's what's right and I think you know sometimes because you do you really want it's hard adoption is hard and you get to a point points at times where you're really having a hard time and you think like man when is this gonna happen

6:26and can't take shortcuts. That is such great advice thank you so much you guys. Private adoption versus agency adoption which is better and why? I think it depends because I think most people when you're you're choosing a private adoption it's because of cost when you when you choose a private adoption you still have to it's not you don't want to just try to do it because you're doing it to be as cheap as possible which I know that sounds bad. The agencies

6:56they'll usually provide counseling for the birth moms which is great and I think if you're doing a private adoption you ought to look at doing the same to not say hey it's it's less expensive if I go through with a private adoption but I think you ought to look at doing some of the same types of things that an agency would offer make sure that you're using ethical lawyers. One other thought I had with it is if you're a private person you're gonna have a really hard time with private adoption because you have to get out there you

7:26have to tell people that you're hoping to adopt. We know we've known people that are private and it could be a challenge. See what works for you. Yeah see what works for you and there's not one right answer to this really it's really a personal decision on what you'd like to do and in our process of adoption we've tried both. So we really love the idea of private adoption like truthfully it kind of goes back to that adoption agency. I haven't found many agencies that I do

7:56love that I feel like are really ethical and so for us like we are really supportive of counseling we you know any expected moms that we would talk to like that was really something that we were like yeah we are gonna cover this we want to make sure you're that you're being taken care of and that you're making sure you're making the right choice for you and so for us we felt like hey private would be great like we're really aware of this and we want to make sure we're doing everything right but ultimately didn't work out right. I mean we kind of felt like we could keep going but it got to the point where it was like this has been a long wait and we know that there are

8:28other options and right now we're gonna use one of those other options and it worked you know and truthfully when we decided that the second time around it worked rather quickly. It doesn't always but there's a cost both ways right like private adoption is cheaper for some people it takes a long time for some people it's really quick you really have no idea what's gonna happen. You do just have to kind of figure out your situation and what works for you. And it's not an easy decision. A lot of decisions with adoption are difficult but it's

9:00one that you know take time to figure out what it is that you want to do. It's a really good answer. You guys are so great and I actually really love that thought about how private people have a hard time with private adoption. That's really kind of a funny. But it's true right like you're doing a private adoption you really have to put yourself out there to get the word out that you are hoping to adopt. If you're an introvert and you don't like talking to people you're gonna have a really hard time. I mean it could work. I'm not an

9:32introvert. So you know I enjoyed telling people about it when we were in the middle of it all. This next question is do you have any advice on creative ways to pay for agency adoption? This one's tricky because I think there's a lot of this is like the day of fundraising right like the days of GoFundMe and for some people that probably feels like a really easy thing. And that's one thing that so it's interesting. Andra actually works in fundraising so you know you would think

10:05that we'd be all over this. We actually can't do it because it's but from what we've read anyway really it's not always it's in the eyes of birth parents it's not always seen as great to have adoptive parents doing fundraising. So I think that's just kind of like a word of caution like just to be aware that for some of these parents sometimes the reason is financial or that's part of the reason. And so if you're going out to ask someone for a couple thousand or more just realize

10:37that if these parents were asking for that would you be willing to give it to them? Like you know that's and if they had that would they be choosing adoptions? So I think to start off that's what kind of that's the disclaimer right? Like that being said I feel like for us the most creative ways we're just like we live really frugally you know we're on a we're on a single income and at one point he was working for the Boy Scouts so you know that income wasn't always

11:07great right? But we have been able to make it work. There are things that you can do I know that there have been people like friends we've had who decided to sell their home and they used the money they made on that for their adoption that's a huge one you know we were fortunate we didn't have to do that but there we had looked into loans there are things like that you can do but there are some other things I don't know if Andrew wants to talk about it I know that some people what they've

11:37done is like done like different like if they are crafty or if they make something right like if they've done things like that selling those things like we've had people who have come to like aerate our lawn like and they're they're doing it like because they're trying to raise money it's there's always going to be work involved like if you're trying to pay for it there's going to be work it's not going to be an easy thing I've known people who have planned up a 5k and they did this huge event and it was no work but it was successful and

12:08they were able to do do some adoptions right like people are doing garage sales which doesn't seem like I think sometimes you think like that's not enough money and I get that but when you are trying to this you just basically it's like it's like getting another job you know get a part-time job right like there have to be ways to make it work and providing a service of some sort you know it could be something like as we've been in different times of you know different things we've done sometimes I've tilled people's gardens you know

12:42and that was a side thing that I did for a while or sometimes there's even like bank account promotions like several bank account will give you $400 you think like okay $400 and beneath $30,000 that's not a whole lot but it's it you can take some time to prepare for it financially it it's a process it's not going to happen overnight maybe it does but it you can prepare financially along the way and and part of that preparation is also adjusting the way that your

13:16lifestyle is and so that you're watching the amount that you're spending and and that could be a great way of saving getting some more money to to go towards this adoption is just cutting something out that maybe is a necessity or you just open 50 bank accounts that offer $400 for each day probably not gonna work we'll do something I mean if you do like one or two of them you know you'll get you'll give you something towards it which $400 is great.

13:52Well those first couple questions were more about agencies and kind of the logistics of adopting the next few questions kind of shift gears a little bit this next one that we'll ask is about your experience at the hospital when you adopted your children can you share a little bit about those experiences? Yeah I don't know they were really they're both really special times they're both they were both very different during that time for us I think the biggest thing we learned was just to be flexible and both times we were

14:27actually fortunate to be in the hospital and we stayed in the hospital and so that was there it was really a really neat experience but we also realized like you have to realize at the time like and we had to realize like this is not our child yet you know and we don't know if it was like it was possible these girls weren't going to go home with us and so so you really want to be flexible and just be really accommodating and make sure that you are really just aware

14:58and kind of advocating for for the birth parents with our older daughter her birth mom wrote up a plan of things that she wanted to happen in the hospital and and that was great but some of those things I from what I had learned from birth parents who placed me for I was sure she was going to her grant and I kind of pushed her a little bit after not right away but I was like we we're

15:29okay with this if you want to change this like we at the time she wanted she wanted us to have to have our daughter in our room with us and not with her at all and I was this night we do you know what you can have her with you if you don't want to that's fine I think you might want this we think you might want this you know and and she did and I'm really grateful that I did that like I think it's like obviously you don't want to push birth parents that sounds bad

15:59but not pushing making a question that maybe because they might she might have been thinking that oh you know this is a we want to I knew she kind of felt like learned her to be a big part of it she you know she also felt like oh I can't change my mind right like I said this was how it's gonna go and so I really feel like you have to be an advocate and whether that means when they change their mind or something like to you know go with it right like just realize like hey this is your time to step back and and yeah I mean that's we actually did you know there we were like he were leaving for the whole day we're gonna go

16:32tour Denver you know I mean so I think it's like I think that's just kind of an important thing to not be in the way you know also something that really helped us out with our first adoption our caseworker was great and he gave us some great suggestions on how we could and this was leading up into the time of the birth but also at the hospital he told us to gauge our excitement and so he

17:02would tell us and as we were talking to him you know we're it's now a month away from the due date he said you guys can be 20% excited so he would gauge you know he'd tell us to gauge our excitement so the why that's important is just because sometimes you go to the hospital and you go home with without a child and and so if you go in there at a hundred percent it's gonna be really

17:32hard it's gonna be really hard and and so to and also with telling you know family or friends we would also use that same gauging with our family and friends and so they weren't like it was it just it just made it it made the experience better so I was that was some good advice that we use all throughout the adoption process with both our adoptions but that was some helpful advice yeah I

18:04think when they were these like this is like you're being invited in this is a really like for us you know we would call it really sacred but it's a very special time like and you are being invited just remember that like this is not your time this is something special that you get to be a part of and so I think it's just kind of an important thing to remember I think that's great advice that's really great how did you know that your child's birth mom was the

18:36right one for you that was a question that we got from one of the people who listened to the podcast it's just different in every situation that's it would be nice if there was the same every time but it's not and so you really have to go on how you feel and with with each situation take it a situate each situation one at a time and and I just know like you you will feel that that's

19:06right I mean I was actually playing with a friend today and I was telling her about just there there were situations that we have said no to and and truthfully this probably sounds crazy but we've probably said no I don't know at least ten times you know and maybe more which which sounds crazy like I think people would think what do you mean no wonder you only have two kids in 12 years like we knew like that these that these children were not supposed to be in our

19:38family and we knew and the hard thing is there were also times that we had and we were talking to an expectant mom and we were like wow this feels so right and yeah that child's not in our family too and so I think that's what's tricky in it there have been times where I felt like I can't even I don't even trust myself anymore like I don't even know what to do and sometimes Andrew would say we're just gonna move forward until we feel one way or the other right I mean and and in those situations we you know I mean we would like we would feel

20:10like yeah this doesn't feel quite right like we've just got so many questions or it's just not all working out and there were other times where it was like hey you know what this feels right something feels good and I mean even with our last adoption there were things about it that we were like oh you know she really didn't you know it was just we really like open adoption and so this was closed and we were we don't want to do it we really truth we were like this is

20:40hard you know we don't want to do a close adoption but we knew like this is right you know and and so we move forward and I think you'll just know and it's hard I think everyone says like oh you know it will be fine but really you have to kind of just trust that and they don't know those people that say that oh you'll know it'll be fine like it hurts it hurts saying we're saying I know but but yeah when you say no it hurts and it's hard is it's like a

21:11heartbreaking thing it's almost like you've got a death in the family all sudden because something that you really have wanted and and then you're saying you know this actually isn't going to work so it's a difficult thing but that's where I think having a strong relationship with your spouse can really help you as you're having those difficult times and and so while this can be a rocky time you know I'm so glad that Ray and I have a great

21:43relationship because and through this all we've grown I feel like we've grown closer together even though I spent a very difficult bumpy road and it's been a good road too but it's been a bumpy at times. I think we can really relate to that too. The other part of that question is how did your children's birth moms know that you were the right parents? So that really was so different for both of them

22:17and one of them obviously like where we have one adoption that's very open you know I mean she just talked to us like you know she even said like oh I looked up other things but there were just certain things that stood out to us and she said like oh right sorry she looked at other people right or she had done searches basically that's what I was thinking she had been searches for certain things and certain characteristics but she she kind of just kept coming back to us and it just felt right and you know I mean with our

22:53younger daughter for her there were just some specific things that she felt like okay with the families that that were presented there were just like it was just like one or two things that they told us like oh she this is what she liked about your family and but that's so specific to to each birth parent and so it's really kind of you just be just be honest be yourself when you're

23:23putting your face in the profile you know I think yeah I'll just help them to know everyone wants to be the awesome family goes in Disney when every year we recently interviewed our daughter's birth mom and she had very similar sentiments like just be you and the right person's going to find you because you're being your authentic but if you're trying to put on some show you're not gonna connect with the right person yeah right so we had a couple other

23:55questions about waiting to adopt and one specifically said I'm having a really hard time not going crazy while I'm waiting what suggestions would you have in this waiting process and the other one is I feel like I'm never gonna get picked what do I do not to lose hope so those kind of are similar questions if you want to answer them together you can or if you have separate answers we can go ahead in preparation I kind of read this this thing that had been written up

24:25by Andrew sister she had like written this article on waiting and she had like talked about it and I was rereading it because it was helpful because she was for some our experience and how we had been trying to adopt again after the second time she's like you know and they've been waiting for four years and I was like right that was a long time and it wasn't over like our our daughters are you know almost it's anyway it's like six years right that we it was basically a five-year process or between our adoptions and waiting is so hard it

25:01just kind of brought it back to me it's like it's so real like in and it's hard and in that moment it feels like it's just it feels heavy and it feels hard and it feels like it's you're never going to get out of this and so I want to go in on that and then I want to say the thing that I have learned is that you have to forget about yourself and realize that it's not about you and this is so hard because I'm like I've been there we were there for years it felt so frustrating and really hard I would see friends who and I had a friend who adopted three

25:35kids and the time we were waiting for one I'm like how is this possible but so it's really hard to be there but it really is not about you and in the in in this adoption timeline your life this waiting process is truthfully probably the easiest process when you are thinking about birth parents and maybe they feel good about their decision it's still a hard thing that they will sometimes struggle with for the rest of their life and when you think about your

26:05children although they may be happy in your home it's still something that they're going to possibly struggle with for the rest of their life and and you are going to be helping them through that and so I think you have to realize that this waiting while it feels so hard is really it's brief and it's not all there is and and it isn't about you so try to focus on the other sides and I think the for for me what I would suggest is to learn like to because when

26:38you have kids it's really hard to read all those books and learn all the things you would have learned about adoption and all the different things that come with it you can be happy now like you need to live your life now don't say I'll be happy when we adopt just realize you can you can be happy now and there was you know something that we thought of too that can just help as you're as you're in this process of waiting don't set up the nursery too early you know

27:09there were times in between when I was taking a long time I wanted to sell the crib it was hard to see that crib folded up in wherever we had a store we had a closet we have a lot of space and so it was kind of a bad place to store the crib but be mindful of those things you know it's well while it sounds hard to say it's not about you it well on the other hand it's okay to feel sad it's okay to have days where you really is really hard you know it's the emotional

27:44thing and and then that's when you can draw strength on you know with your your family your spouse I think that like yeah and that last one like you know what you do not to lose hope I think that's what to really find some support to yeah you can have bad days that you eat ice cream and chocolate and that's great sometimes we found that to him like my slide is good one of us would be doing worse than another and that was really helpful it's really hard when you're both having a bad day and that happens you kind of just have to

28:16you know keep putting one step in front of the other it does help to have somebody else who can support and sometimes I can just be a friend we often found that it was really helpful to find people who had been through the adoption process that's really helpful to find to have someone who you can talk to who has been through this and who understands that was really that's really been helpful for us we'd mentioned kind of the the up and down you know we each have different ups and downs and something that I I realized is we were in the middle of all that is that you know some days there be times

28:49when I was on the it was kind of this roller coaster which roller coasters have fun but this one it's not and and so it's you know sometimes you know Brianna would be down and I was up where sometimes I would be down and she was up and and that was that was helpful when our downs were offset by someone else being okay and sometimes you'll have days where you're both down then go back to those things that bring a strength that you can rely on for for help and for hope and whether it is a family member or a friend sometimes a

29:22friend is better than a family member just because they're more involved sometimes and so and so it's harder for them to see us that so sometimes it's better to find something who can you know just see it from a different angle all right it's from the bit of a gear shift so how do you handle having kids with different kinds of openness and their adoptions it's really hard yeah we have one option that is very open and so we go in we're not in the same state but

29:55we go visit the birth family we are connected with grandparents and great grandparents and extended family and on holidays we can you know birthdays yeah it's we can send things back and forth and it's you know there's a lot of love yeah yeah and and they and they've been really supportive of our younger daughter

30:26as well and that's been great they've just included her as one of their own grandkids and that's really very helpful so with our second daughter our adoption is not open things kind of did open a little some people would call it semi open but for us when we see like so open it just feels close it doesn't feel semi open even though we have some details and we have some information it's it's really quite opposite we don't have visits and we don't there's not a lot of

31:01communication and so it's pretty much closed yeah it really is pretty much close we just have some details and so it's really hard but one thing that we have learned from the very start and we're grateful for that is just we just had you know in our first training he told us like don't ever close an adoption because one looks different they if you have a really open adoption and then you have a close never close that and of course that seems totally obvious but it's hard when you see like a child who you know when our daughter

31:35is just four and already starting to struggle a little like wait you know it's like oh maybe we shouldn't visit this you know part of you thinks that like well maybe we shouldn't visit this for a family as much you know but that's not the answer that's that's not health leader you have to find a balance and we so what we've realized is we've just we can find out all we can about our daughter's adoption that is close and and we still talk to her about her

32:05birth mom and how much she loves her and we tell her everything we can about her story and we've been able to get some pictures and things like that you can find a lot on the internet and a lot of Facebook we have done that we've been able to to get things like that so that she can have something and I think that's what's important for her to have some kind of connection and we always hope it will change but yeah we just kind of we're learning as we go so I

32:37mean it's definitely a learning process but I love how you mentioned that your older daughter's birth family has now included your younger daughter and just welcomed her in and given their love and support as well I think that's really sweet what do you wish that other people understood about adoption people outside of the adoption world maybe I think what we were thinking is just it's not the easy option you know I've had people just tell me like oh I you're so lucky that you get to adopt because you don't have to be pregnant for nine months and

33:10be sick and and I'm like I kind of want to tell them like oh that feels really hard that I'm lucky that I'm like breaking someone's heart causing some trauma and you know this is what I'm doing so that I can have children my family and it's a little bit tricky when you have knowing how to respond to things like that I think just realizing like it's not easy and there's a lot involved and I just wish I wish also that just people realize how much love

33:42is involved when I do fight about adoption that's what I fight about it's when people are like oh I would love my child too much to be able to place them for adoption and I'm like oh no that you've got it all wrong like there was so much love there and can you imagine breaking your heart because you love someone so much that you felt like this was the best choice for them that is truly an act of love and those are the things I really wish people understood it's just how much love was involved and just that it isn't easy and I think it's

34:14good to know how you're going to answer that question when people say things like that so that you're not just like what like you know sometimes I think at the beginning we were learning about the grieving process you know for whatever reason it is that you're adopting maybe it may be some possible for you to have children or something like that so there's part of this grieving process that you go through when people will say things they're so insensitive at times and there are times when you just want to whip back and say something that's

34:46gonna rip their heart out you know I just like let me just make you feel like you just made me feel that's okay you know it's okay to be bitter sometimes but you know you can get to a point where you can respond to people in a good way because it can be hard sometimes people say what are some things that people can say or do that are helpful when you're waiting to adopt and on the flip side what are some less helpful things that you would advise against saying to friends who are hoping to adopt so I think just saying hey I was

35:23I was thinking of you and I hope that things are going well for you your family I think that's that's just one of the best ways because you know when they when they start asking for specifics or have you got any good leads or any have you know sometimes just getting into the details it's exhausting and you don't want to get into the details with people who you know sometimes they ask and it just be nicer if they just said you know I was thinking of you rather than make you you know put you on the spot to talk about something that's

35:54really hard yeah and I think just less helpful I mean the one we talked about earlier you know saying like that sounds great really easy that's obviously not helpful but no I know people do care but I I agree with what Andrew said just let them know you're thinking of them I think that's really the best thing to do because if they want to talk about specifics they will and just less helpful things are just it's just not being supportive you know I mean so anytime you feel like you want to pry into their lives or say like why does it

36:27take so long you know I think for us to at times in our through our experience when expecting parents would change their minds like that's something that we kind of had to educate our family and friends on and I think if they're aware of that that can be helpful to just to say you know what we still we totally respect you know these people and this is her choice and at any point she can change your mind and and it well it might hurt hurt us like it's not our

37:02child like this is not our child and and so I think that that's something to like for in that experience if that happens you know for someone else to just continue to be positive for them to talk badly about this mom is not helpful because that's not how we feel you know we really often going to love them and to really respect them and with some you know you can continue that relationship on and so I think that that's something that is important to realize like to not to not talk badly about any expect a mom who who does

37:35choose make a different choice and if someone is talking to you about it you can shut them down because people like say people ask nosy questions and try to make assumptions around the situation and you can correct them and you want to go into details and tell them your story because it's not worth it and I think one thing I just realized to you one thing that isn't probably helpful for those who are waiting to adopt is to not say like oh I know a couple soon as they adopted she got pregnant like also not helpful that happens to there's ten twenty

38:13others that doesn't happen to you and I'm sure everyone yeah everyone will hear that I even have people I mean these were our friends who like you know we've even had people tell us oh we knew it was right to choose adoption because it happened so fast and I was like oh I guess we like even things like that

38:43like just be supportive let people know you care you don't have to go into all those details about the amazing miracle that you're you can share that but don't I think sometimes when you expect like this is gonna happen to you too that's really not very helpful because it usually doesn't happen like that you and I think you know also being aware of like hard times like Mother's Day with you know I think that's just something to be aware around that time just to

39:13things not to say just be saying I'm thinking of you would be good one time we not knowing that this particular cupcake shop was giving away cupcakes for Mother's Day the day before Mother's Day we went in and we were in line and they had been giving like free cupcakes all these women in front of us and I said I noticed that you're giving out free cupcakes like what's that all about and this was before we had adopted any children and we were waiting and they

39:43said oh they're only for mothers are you a mom and they look at her and like when that just starts crying and walks out of the cupcakes store I'm like had to bite my tongue so hard not to say anything but yeah we have to be sensitive I love that advice we have a lot of people that ask us about race and adoption and families adopting children that are different races than the adoptive parents and you fall into that category right so what advice would you

40:16give to those that are considering adoption specifically around trans racial or biracial adoption we are white and our oldest daughter is white and our youngest daughter is black trans racial adoption is we've learned a lot about it this could really take an hour to discuss I think there's just a couple things that we that we feel like are really important and one of those first off the bat is that if you are not racist if you say you know you go through

40:46those checklists of things that you're open to and if you are not open to adopting a child that is another race than yourself that does not mean you're a racist love is not enough in a trans racial adoption and this child will be growing up with your family your extended family your friends your neighborhood and if that neighborhood or that you have family members that you are close to who aren't okay with some things who might be racist and you may

41:18know that like you have to be aware of that because what that means is if that is the case you have to be willing to say I'm gonna step away from that family member I'm not going to expose my child to this person who has these racist views and if you aren't okay doing that that's okay you just need to not adopt trans racially you know often in these groups I man on Facebook they talk about trans racial option I mean they say all the time are you willing to move if needed and if not like then maybe don't adopt racially because guess what your child minority often that's true for our

41:51daughter you know she's she is the minority in our family and so we have to put ourselves in situations where we are the minority where she is surrounded by black people and so again it really depends on your family are you really private do you hang out with just your friends if your child is your first black friend then you should not be adopting them like you need to have other black friends you need to have connections if you don't then then maybe

42:23you need to reconsider these things and so I think some people will say well oh I'll make friends and that's true you can do that and we have had to do more but we also realize like there's still so many other things that we have to do it's doable there are a lot more I feel like it's so much easier today to find books with black people around the country just other races but it's easier but it's still work and I guess you know I mean when we go and one of our daughters loves Barbies so we're like okay well we don't want to go to the

42:55stores and buy a Barbie because they're almost all white but if I go online I can find some that are black you know I mean you can't find some there are a lot more these days but it's like we hardly ever buy white Barbies in this house anymore even though it's so white. We keep sending links to like birth family and everyone like yeah see this black Barbie this is the one she wants like of course right like it's just what what's important to us now and so I don't know I feel like for me that's and that's and be willing to I mean

43:25this is this is a much longer this question is a great thing and it could take we can't answer it in a short time and I'm sure that we'll do a whole episode on it at some point too. I think just being willing to learn and make changes in your life if you're if you're considering it really be honest and looking within yourself and make changes because you'll find some things that oh you'll need to change and and that you'll need to also correct people on and call them out and knowing how to respond to people when they are saying things

44:00that are racist or inappropriate you need to be able to do that. Yeah we could get away people didn't know that our oldest daughter was adopted unless we told them but now they know I go on walks with her younger daughter in the neighborhood and I've had I mean someone who is pretty adamant like oh she goes to this daycare right and I'm like no she doesn't and she was like are you sure she looks like she goes to this daycare and I'm like who doesn't? Then she asks her daughter who goes to daycare? That's right and she's like I don't know and she's like is she yours? I'm like

44:34yes this is my daughter she's like oh then you would know I mean it's like I often get asked are you her mother because I don't look like I'm her mother and I get that but you have to be prepared for that like these are going to be questions and and you know in one of these groups when I read like so he is a transracial adoptee and he said like please don't answer those in anger like your child will feel like something is wrong with their adoption if you're always upset when you want to just be super frustrated with people you also have to

45:04realize like there's a child who's listening and so you have to respond in ways that are okay but also ways that aren't going to often people want to ask you a ton of questions and so you kind of have to be creative in ways that you respond to say like yep this is my child and the conversation is over so there are definitely things you have to learn and so you just have to be prepared like you we are aware we live in Utah it's very white and we are so aware of it now now that our daughter is black and when we go to there are certain parts that I'm like holy cow we shouldn't have come to this city because where we are it's a

45:37little bit diverse in our neighborhood for Utah yes for Utah we're in a school that's like 45% white and so that is great for us and so we feel like oh when we're in our neighborhood park we see some diversity but if we go to a neighboring city we're like wow people are staring at us and and they do in we get those stairs and our older daughter is aware of them and our younger daughter is going to be aware of them soon and so it's something that you have to

46:09really ask yourself to am I comfortable with this and and it's it's okay if you're not it doesn't mean you're racist it just means you're being honest and I think that's a really important to to be aware of there are a lot of things to consider really just do a lot of research join groups on Facebook read books you know that's really important to do that before you bring that child home because again you won't have as much time I love how focused your answer is on the adoptee all right anything else you want to talk about on that

46:39subject we have realized like as white parents there's a lot of work that we should be doing so when you talk to black parents parents of other races like they have conversations with their children are very young age about race about racism about how the world functions about police about you know just a lot of things they're having these conversations at such a young age and I've talked to friends who they're like well my daughter's eight or she's

47:1112 now so I feel like we should bring some of these things up but it feels so awkward and I'm like this is not an awkward conversation this shouldn't be this isn't like the birds in the beads you know this is about race you know it is often see like people will say oh I have colorblind I don't see color well guess what I do and so do most people unless they truly are colorblind and you know what there are so many beautiful things that the other races have to like

47:43that we can learn from and and we need to see those and we need to to embrace those and so I think that that's really something that's that all parents can do is just like finding books learning information like there are there's so much out there and just being open to discussing even at a young age I think sometimes people feel like oh is it okay to call someone black like I mean I've had people say like is that your daughter over there with the curly hair I'm like yes she's the black she's the black like she's like and it's okay to

48:19say that she's black right but sometimes people are scared you know they're like wait you know that's like you can you don't have to describe like she's wearing a purple shirt but not that purple it's like I have a black daughter and and that's okay they give the kids those words teach them and teach about racism teach that it's real and they don't just teach like oh we have the civil rights movement and everything's better I think we really have learned to

48:51embrace other cultures and to teach so like wow look at you know these scientists who are black I mean we celebrate black history month all the time here we've got books about just like people have done great things and we don't always hear about it we have a pretty whitewashed history that we hear about and so I think really being honest and being open with your kids and really teaching them the truth which sometimes means you have to first find out for yourself and that can be hard it kind of challenges some things that maybe you

49:21grew up with but I think and you'll find out that your friends you'll find out pretty quickly when you start sharing sharing what you've learned that some of your friends are just maybe not your friends anymore and and so it's it's something that you need to be prepared to do and even there might be people that you really are friends with that you aren't gonna be comfortable having your daughter or your child around them because they're not they don't they

49:57don't understand and it's so you know I've had to I've had to say sayonara so yes so good yeah I think we could fill hours and hours of content around this topic but I think that the overview that you gave is really helpful and I think will be really helpful for our listeners all right then our last question is what are your experiences with building different types of

50:27relationships with your children's birth families and your advice about building those relationships you got to remember that these are people and relationships it's not a sign it's not this is not an assignment we're working with with people and with real relationships and they're gonna be these people are important to your child and so they should also be important to you if if you're able if the adoption is open in a way that allows you to build a

50:59relationship you need to do that I think it's really easy sometimes for people to say oh it's hard to keep up you know I mean you guys maybe you feel that sometimes you've got four kids and that's it's a lot of extended family and sometimes at Christmas when I'm heading to the post office and I have all these packages I'm like wow this is a lot I am great opportunity and I we have to be

51:29flexible I quickly learned this I mean this was like with our oldest daughter I mean we were we lived like just a couple hours away and so you know when we first adopted her we saw her birth family all the time but it was great like we were so grateful for that but there were times we were also exhausted like truthfully it was like oh man and we were sending a lot of emails and doing a lot of things but I at one point I was like I really just was like I don't want to disappoint her and I want to be able to do this but I think like that's

51:59what's important to realize like this is a relationship so it's hard I didn't want to be like just checking off a box it's important to remember this relationship and sometimes it's like hey you know what this is gonna be a short email because we didn't get any sleep last night and know that because you're building that relationship they're gonna understand but I think that's another thing that we've learned really we've there have been misunderstandings at times you know we thought one thing and we were thinking oh maybe this is gonna be an awkward time or a hard conversation and I won't go into details

52:29but I'll just say the one thought I had at that time was like we're gonna kill him with kindness like we are just gonna show love and kindness because that's how we feel that's what we want and that's what we did and kind of a we thought was kind of we were worried we were worried it was gonna be a hard situation and it ended up being beautiful it was like it was totally misunderstandings on multiple sides and now it's great now yeah we have a great relationship and so I think there are sometimes things we're especially to us because we've had we have relationships with many sides of the birth families

53:03and so I think when you have that and there's so many people involved there often are misunderstandings but I think to just realize like be flexible and be open and really just include everyone that you can in your child's life you know more love around your child is always better and it's just so important for them to feel loved it's I've never been adopted but I've talked to a lot of people who have been and we are raising to those who have been and I think there's so many different you know complex things that can come up and so I

53:37think the more open you are and the more willing you are to help them to feel loved by many is it's just going to help I think it is we talked out it's good to have lots of grandmas not everyone can do that you know it's there's just a lot of love and that's good yeah lots of grandmas is awesome can't go wrong with more grandmas it's good I loved my two grandmas growing up

54:08but when our kids get to say you know they have X amount of grandma and grandpa's other kids are like why that's not fair and so you know there's some good perks anything else related to adoption or anything else on your mind that you didn't share tonight that you would want either you know hopeful adoptive couples or other people that are related to or connected with those that have adopted to know you know hang in there you know it's there's there are

54:41times it's difficult to hang in there and find find your support groups that are there are helpful within your family or friends circles of friends maybe see some groups on Facebook they're helpful or something but just know adoption is great and it can be hard to I think one thing that's helpful for us sometimes is just remember like to remember those times where we were in the hospital like

55:12I think it's important to kind of like hear about those times to learn about those times it kind of puts a different perspective on it and it it always helps me to just remember like remember being there with our daughters birth bombs and having them make those decisions and place these children in our family like those are really times where kind of just brings it all back you know it was like we said before it was a really special time but it helps me keep a

55:43perspective too so even if I have never had that happen if I was able to listen to like birth parents to talk about that experience to talk about those things I think it's so valuable to listen to those and to just really try to to see where they're coming from and to see what's important to them I think that really that's that really was helpful for us to just learn from birth parents who had place before we were there and and then after that time even in our waiting when we were waiting for years it was helpful to to remember that to

56:15remember that like there are good times in adoption there are beautiful things that can happen it can be hard but a lot of good things are awesome thank you guys so much for joining us on this episode I honestly we know that this is gonna help a lot of people your experiences I think are really helpful and you articulated things really really well so thank you for sharing your thoughts

56:56thank you for listening to this episode of the open adoption project Brianna and Andrew are so articulate and they shared so much wonderful information they truly are such great people and are incredible adoption advocates and again we're so grateful that they were willing to join us for this episode our podcast is now available on Google podcast in addition to the other platforms that we've already been on Apple podcast Spotify and stitcher if you haven't subscribed yet go ahead and just click the subscribe button on whatever platform you're using to listen to this episode that way you'll get episodes as

57:30soon as they're released also if you have a second to jump on to Apple podcast we'd love for you to give us a review and write a comment that'll really help us out we'll be back next week with a new episode in the meantime if there's something that you'd like us to discuss in future episodes just send us a message you can email us at open adoption project at gmail.com or send us a message on Instagram we appreciate all of our listeners thank you

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