Basketball, DNA, and Adoption with John Saintignon

0:00Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 66. We are the Nelsons. I'm Lanette. And I'm Shaun. In today's episode, Shaun will be sharing an interview with John Santignon. John is an adoptee. He was born in Mexico and raised in Arizona and he played basketball professionally. He currently lives in Japan where he coaches basketball and basketball has really been part of his life since he was a child. He was the leading scorer in the country when he played college basketball and he is just so phenomenal. This is such a sweet interview. I have

0:35really loved listening to it and I'm so excited to share it with you. So in this interview, John shares about his search for his biological family and that started when he was 50 years old and he'll talk about his reunion experience. We're so excited to share his perspective and his story and we're really excited to share another male adoptee's voice on the podcast. We'll cut right now to the interview and I know you'll enjoy it. We hope you've all had happy holidays.

1:05All right. Well, we are now on the podcast with John Santignon. John, thank you so much for being with us today. Let me tell you Shaun, it's a joy and an honor for me just to just to even be asked to be a guest on your incredible podcast. Thank you. Thank you so much. We feel the honor to have you here. So it's mutual. Thank you so much. John, help us get to know you. Help our listeners get to know you a little bit. Go ahead and introduce yourself. Well, you know, I was adopted at birth. You know, I was orphaned for a couple days, you know, from my

1:38understanding, you know, about three, four days. I was born in a small town, Nuevo Casas Grandes in Chihuahua, Mexico and fortunate enough to be adopted by two loving parents in Tucson, Arizona. And so that's where I was really raised. I was raised there and given the opportunities that perhaps were not going to be afforded to me otherwise. And, you know, education was stressed and so it

2:08was a high priority for me to achieve in the classroom or at least get an education that would benefit me. Lo and behold, you know, I fell in love with the game of basketball and but I had two loving parents who supported everything to go about that. And along my journey, you know, as I grew up, I think around the age of 10, I get told I'm adopted and I have no idea what that means. And no one around me in my neighborhood knows what that means. And therefore, now

2:41when I start to mention it at that time, you know, I'm 57 years old now. So when I start mentioning that at that time, no one knows or they have this conception that it's bad, you know, something wrong happened. And so I kind of figured that maybe sometimes it had a scarlet letter to it or an attachment to feeling like maybe I feel sorry for him. And so I got to notice that, you know, and that's my first inclination, I guess, of discovery of

3:12sociology and the study of people. And, you know, but, you know, I was driven. And in a lot of research, you know, you hear about trying to prove yourself a lot as an adoptee. Perhaps that played a role. I don't know. I mean, I never thought that I was adopted because I was at birth, you know, like this. But, yeah, but in but as research kind of goes and proves you has many different theories behind it. And so

3:43I was certainly always trying to prove something. And so I fell in love with the game of basketball. It provided an avenue for me that I did not know existed. The ability to go to college and then while in college, you know, I've become the nation's leading scorer in the game of basketball. And again, I'm not six foot eight. You know, I didn't jump out of the gym. I am not one of those guys, but I did

4:13have a skill and a talent that allowed me to to stay focused and to drive in that manner later on in life. You know, that comes back to help me because I still have that ability to use basketball as a tool to get my education. And I go and I play professional basketball. Yeah. And in that time period, now I'm a little curious to discover where and who I'm from. But yet not wanting to ever want to disappoint my

4:43adopted parents. That would be hard. I already know my first day being told I was leaving to go play my first professional job. Then my my mom walks in and she's crying and she has a name and she's like, if you want to go find here is your birth mother. And I couldn't take it. Are you kidding? That would be crushing, you know. So but many years later, I have this inclination that I

5:13want to find out. But now I'm left with no name and no photo. I don't know. But that's been my life. You know, I'm driven. So I went on the quest to go search. And I just started digging into memory bank of names people maybe my mom worked for because I knew that would probably be the avenue. And are they still alive? And you name it, Shaun. And I started doing this journey. And I took a DNA test when

5:44I was 50. And it was fascinating to me just fascinating to know where I possibly could come from, from this, you know, and it was it was wholly accurate. And then I was even more flabbergasted that it had names and their lineage to you. But no one that popped out to say like brother, sister or or mother father or all second, third, fourth, fifth cousin type. And, wow, that's, that's

6:15another needle in the haystack type of situation, you know, for sure. Yeah. So that's what I did. You know, I ended up using using that as my first tool and then using the resources that I know, and contacting people to try to help me try to put a puzzle together of epic proportions. But I didn't stop, you know, I just kept facing roadblocks along the way. And it's about a three year journey, you know, to try to figure this out. And I kept taking different DNA exams. And I

6:50would eventually was told, you know, you need to go to where you were born. And I remember distinctly, I was scouting at the time for the Los Angeles Clippers, and I was in Tucson, Arizona at a scouting of a basketball player. And I remember, you know, having a pointless because the guy was going to be number one or two draft pick, what am I sitting here for? And I remember telling my wife, I'm going to drive down the very same path that my parents took to the very

7:23same location. And she's like, you don't know anybody, what are you going to do? I never know anybody, Shaun, you know, that's just my personality. I don't know. But I will, I will make friends immediately. I will have this. And lo and behold, I reached out to a few people that I saw via social media. And next thing you know, the one guy is a basketball coach, but he's also a lawyer there. And he is almost like the mayor of the town. And he is totally into this

7:53now putting this piece of puzzle together. Because family means so much to some different segments of the population in different, different countries, it means different. And so they were, he was a godsend. I mean, I went to find out my, my birth certificate to find out if I actually did exist in the database there. And sure enough, it came out. And there's now we're talking to the elders in this small town, or who would possibly have

8:23been a doctor to in this area? Are they still alive? What about their own sons? But now you start to see maybe, you know, people were scared, because now it's at that time that car probably could be considered, you know, child trafficking, because there's no real record of anything. And, and while it wasn't, it's still to today's modern society was like, well, you know, all you

8:53got to do is go get the records. There are none. There were none. And at the time, Shaun, I thought my adopted mom was brilliant, because on my birth certificate, it has a list of names and witnesses and some other things that, but it only has her and my dad's name is that me being that child. And I thought that wasn't intentionally done by her to have no no issues ever crossing the border with a young child. But turns out that that was that was

9:23the norm, you know, immediately that was the name that was given. And those names, to be honest, that were witnesses were fictitious. They were, they were just kind of, you know, stamped. And but nevertheless, I mean, that was the piece of paper that showed proof. So I went along that journey. And seeing, you know, I am, I'm diving deep. I mean, I'm on radio broadcasts. I'm not trying to audition for a parent. But I'm trying to get the community to a sense of

9:55awareness that someone was from here has come back to search. But I'm careful about it, because I'm like, I don't want anyone to feel like, you know, it could be someone's deep hidden secret. Yeah, too. Yeah. And, and so I was carefully running into roadblocks all along the way. And at times, I really felt it was a conspiracy because I felt like maybe they thought like, who is this guy? Why is he coming back here? He's educated in the United States is different. And but

10:30I never stopped and kept meeting some very important people who felt curious more about this. And while they were opening up doors, Shaun, they were also scaring some people too, because they're influential. And, and I didn't want any of that. I just now thought, I just wanted to be curious about the story. If I was happy to know, like, maybe this is the hospital. It is the ceiling. And possibly these were the doctors. Maybe I could talk to their son,

11:02get to know who it was, and just get a general idea of what life was like then. And, well, you know, Catholicism, religion, no, no such thing as as terminating a birth. Maybe a younger child, you know, 1416 18 years old, on a ranch on a farm or somewhere out there, and they couldn't keep it. You know, that was the alternative. Yeah. And I felt into into that, and into that type

11:36of category. But it was it was this one unique story that eventually kind of turned the whole tide around after a three year journey. On my second year, going back, I kept going back and forth so I could keep momentum alive. And, and so I did meet one of the doctor's sons, and he ends up telling me this story about about another gentleman who came with a little small photo, didn't speak

12:11Spanish, but spent weeks looking trying to search for his parents, he went almost door to door. And that was 30 years earlier. I was like, Oh, my God, here I am with modern tech, modern technology, I have DNA, I've got all kinds of things. Are you telling me that this guy went door to door now thinking for sure conspiracy theories going right ahead. You know, and I'm like telling him and I'm a little angry and I was like, I got all this stuff. And you're telling me that

12:41this guy just stayed here for weeks, I can't stay here for weeks. You know, and nevertheless, that story he shares, like, so I'm like, okay, keep going. You know, he tells me that that gentleman eventually did find a parent. And I'm like, wow, what a very amazing story that was. Well, now fast forward, I am told by other people to take another DNA exam. And I take an ancestry DNA exam. And I

13:12reach out to a search angel through through the Mormon community in Utah, and they're trying to help me piece this whole thing together. And again, stumbling roadblocks without a name without a photo, I have no idea who people are. So I can't even identify when they piece it together. But lo and behold, that same person tells me, have you taken another DNA exam? What have you got to lose? And I was like, Yeah, I didn't even think of it. I take another one. And sure enough,

13:43for the first time ever pop up to two first cousin nieces, it says, I immediately write them an email carefully manuscripted and then have a phone conversation and both of those ladies end up saying, you know, you think you need to talk to my dad? No problem. It's a it's a unique scenario. Well, father ends up calling me and and he says, I, I believe I'm your brother. And I'm your brother. Okay, tell me why. He proceeds to tell me Shaun 30 years ago, I

14:20had a picture. And I had no name. And I went door to door. And I'm like, you're the guy that was in that story. This is you. So I just keep listening to him. And sure enough, he's describing all of it. And he says, I found our mother. And I asked if I had any brothers or sisters. And he said, Yes, you have someone over here, someone over there and some other brother born May six, back in the United

14:50States. And I'm like, you're kidding me, man. So that whole story came full circle now. And I do DNA exams. Everybody's related. It's unreal. And then I went back for the third time and I met that I had, you know, some brothers and sisters. And the unbelievable, the journey though, to uncover this. All because I was just kept on being persistent, you know, again, back into

15:22the whole life trying to have something to prove. That's kind of how it went, Shaun. Man. Oh, I have so many questions just about your story. And then we'll talk about some other things. But so at what age were you when you started this journey? How long ago was that for you? I was I was 50. Yeah, that's when I decided I just decided I would take a DNA exam at age 50 for the heck of it and felt fascinated, fascinated. And then it was like, hey, you know what, what do I got to lose? Let's go search. So it was a so from the time you started searching

15:55to the time you actually found was about three years, you said? Yeah, yeah, it was about a three year journey to try to consistently go back and forth. I went back each each time to try to uncover a little bit more, talk to the community, because I was looking at the magnitude, like it may be this person doesn't even live here. Maybe it's some grandmother now who lives outside somewhere. Yeah. And the biggest form of communication is either by radio, which was it was there,

16:29or younger kids, I went to college to the universities there, and shared my story in the hopes that they would go and talk to somebody. And maybe that sparked something else. That was fascinating, fascinating journey. I mean, there were people that said maybe perhaps they thought they were my, you know, brother, sister and things, but they could not prove. Yeah, that. And I wasn't willing to kind of go any further than that without DNA exam. And when I that's that's how I

17:00have to prove it. Yeah. So you met your biological brother through DNA, you went back and you met other siblings. Did you ever meet your biological mother? So my mother had died. And by the time I was there, I met her sister. And her sister was kind of not necessarily on her deathbed, but getting closer to it, you know. Okay. And that's, that's my, that's my third time going back, that I finally meet her. And I don't want to just, you know, disturb her. She's on oxygen. And

17:37but you can just see she's tearing, she's sharing stories. She's definitely telling me the whole thing and, and the whole reasoning behind it. And the whole just laying it all out, not knowing what my reactions are going to be either. But I keep saying I'm the beneficiary. Do not feel sorry for me. You know, that's that's not it. You know, because there was a lot of that feeling like we have banned your abandon, you were left. We had no other choice kind of things. That's fine. I

18:07I would let them explain. But that wasn't luckily I was in a place in my life where I'm like, I don't feel that I don't have that type of feeling for it. You know, we're younger, I probably thought like, why, why was I let go? You know, why? Yeah, I, why did, especially when I was an athlete, I was like, why didn't nobody ever come look for me? That would always be curious. But now I'm seeing not everybody has the means to do any of these things. Right? You know, how are

18:39they going to this one wise older man said, how are they ever going to reach you? How was that possible? You know, they were, there was no form of other type of communication to find you. My words of wisdom definitely took it in, you know, it's like, yes, you're absolutely right. You know, and let let let it go from there. And just kind of, you know, just took in the took in the information as it came. Yeah. Just because I just, if nothing else, my whole sole purpose was

19:12to go, well, this is the land I was from, this is possible scenarios. That's possible lifestyle I possibly would have had had not had a different choice. But not all adoptions work out so fantastic as you're well aware. So and even my own, my own brother in my in that family tree, there were three of us that were given up for adoption. And so that brother that went back to find he was given up to

19:43adoption, but a totally different type of family. And he, he had issues through most of his life. And another sister was given up for adoption within, within Mexico, but had contact. So it was almost like she knew who she knew who the mother was. She knew all these. So she had an open adoption. Yeah. But even back then, okay. Yeah, even back then she had communication she knew. It's just

20:14that she was just housed in a different location. So different, but she, she came out great, you know, in terms of feeling of an adopted background, having two supportive loving parents that took care of her. So then there were other two others that definitely felt that sense of remorse towards me, you know, like, like, not, I don't think remorse is the right word. They felt a sense of like, like they were born after and kept, but I was given away. Yeah. And it was

20:50tearful, you know, it was heartfelt, because I could see them as if, as if, you know, like survivor guilt a little bit, you know, but I didn't want them to ever feel that I'm like, I was the beneficiary. I'm gonna keep saying this over and over again. They had a different eye. And, and don't view it any other way. It was benefited me. So this was, I mean, ultimately, this was a journey that had a ton of puzzle

21:22pieces that came together for you, connected you to some biological siblings, and now you have relationships with them. Still, can you talk a little bit about what that what it looks like now? You know, yeah, sure. You know, it's like, it's like the scene out of, you know, private saving private Ryan, you know, they're given an assignment to go find something totally, you know, needle in the haystack. And that's what I was attempting to do. And all along that journey, there are many that say you're wasting your time, why are you

21:56doing that you have a loving family, they don't get it if they're not adopted. They'll never understand it. Or even if they are adopted, they have a different, a different view for it. I wanted to know where I was from, how I how I am who I am. But I totally agree that perhaps I wasn't wanted. And maybe that's the sense of rejection that could come. Okay, not young to be offended in that regard.

22:26Yeah. But I was curious. The as the journey kind of goes along, I'm totally going to, to, to ad libit and feel like, well, now that I've found everybody, how do I, how do we all meet and talk? And, and I just wanted them to be able to share their stories. And, and to be honest, Shaun, I mean, on my last day there, it was like an Oprah Winfrey session. It was unbelievable. Because

23:00they all had their own children with them as well. And it was about 20 of us in like in a big roundtable, because I was in a hotel. And that hotel knew what I was there for. And then once I found out who are my brothers and sisters and all that work, the guy, the manager said, the whole hotel lobby is all yours. I'm closing. You, you, you keep everybody down here and do whatever you guys do. Remarkable. That is, was remarkable. And so it turned into this session where

23:32each one had something to say to me. And one of the, one of the nieces said, you know, my mom said, there's always, don't forget, you have an uncle, just haven't found him. But he's, he exists, you know, and he's there. And she was maybe 20 some 25 years old, you know, and I was like, oh, man, these are tear field tear. This is tough, you know, and you can just feel the sense of emotion for them. And others

24:03were just young. Others were stunned, you know, you name it. But the wide range of emotions that evening was like, I was like, Oprah, this is really like a counseling session, you know, so I never lost touch with them. There's such a long, they don't understand my lifestyle, though, at the same time, you know, I'm again, I'm in a totally different world to them. And, and so I just simply cannot

24:34pop back in and resume relationships as if as if they would want because my life does take me into other countries. And I, and I must do that. And I knew that there was a sense of frustration because I wasn't going back, you know, as, as I would like. And it was like, well, it's scheduled just doesn't allow for all that all the time. I definitely carved out that time period, I had it at that time period. But

25:07you know, this, I'm planning on going back again this this summer and, and see if I can totally revisit again. And it's it is remarkable, because you, you are a bit shocked to see someone who looks like you or has some mannerisms like Yeah, totally. The storylines that you hear are very confusing. At least to me, Shaun, like I don't understand who first cousin I don't understand lineage of family tree that well. It's very confusing. But who who's who who are we talking about? Let's

25:42keep it on one line for me, you know, yeah, that will help. Not 40 people here. I can't I can't take it. You know, I don't even know who anyone is. But if we get that, it really helps. Yeah, making those maybe individual connections and relationships and then then seeing how they fit together. Yeah, I can imagine that being challenged. So you alluded to this and maybe for our listeners sake, can you share a little bit about why you're in different countries and what your profession is

26:12that way? They can understand a little bit more. I know, I know, I did some research, but tell us what you'd share. Well, you know, like I told you before, I definitely used basketball as a tool to get an education. And so it allowed me the chance to play not only college, but professionally. And after I finished professional basketball, I ended up becoming a coach in the game. And I was coaching domestically in the United States as a high school coach. And then I later moved on to the Pac 10. It's now the Pac 12 conference. And then after that, I became an international hockey

26:45coach. And I ended up moving all around the world. And that journey has taken me to a multitude of countries. And currently I'm in Japan. And so we're having this podcast in from Japan. Yeah, so that's that's what I do as a I've just continued to use basketball as as a way to see the world, meet various cultures experience different lifestyles and but now I'm kind of find myself

27:15very intimately wanting to to get into the adoption side. And how can I how can I talk to people? How can I have been very curious now recently, whereas prior in my life, I was not as much. Yeah. Well, I have some more questions for you, maybe that will help you do that with this community with our listeners at least take a step in that direction. And from your perspective, I'm really interested to know a lot of things. So how would you say that your experience

27:47as an adoptee has led you to where you are today? Well, you know, as as a younger child, you know, like said, I thought I had something to prove. I don't know what it meant when I was young, at that age of 10. But I started to see it in how interactions were whenever I did bring it up. I did feel sometimes a little bit isolated, mentally, not knowing, you know, I would probably say like, maybe do I fit in? Do I not? They don't

28:18understand what I'm thinking or what this actually means. Or was I just being too sensitive enough to say like they could care less? Yeah. You don't know when you're a teen. And you certainly when I went to college, that's a different avenue. Now people are coming from all walks of life. They have all kinds of different things. And yet, not one of them were adopted either. Okay, no problem. But at least they had a higher sense of awareness and perhaps

28:51what that meant different lifestyles. It affected me in the fact that that like I said, you know, at times like I would wonder like, why isn't anyone ever look for me? How does no one know? Especially when I was leading the country in scoring, I was like, it was kind of a it's a big thing in the world of sports. But that's being naive, and thinking that other people pay attention to that, you know, 99% of the world could care less. You know, a lot of a lot of people think

29:23they're like place importance on a lot of things, but it was your world. So I get I get where you're coming. Yeah. But I could tell you this, Shaun, if somebody had come to find me at that time period, I wouldn't have been receptive to it. I know later as a professional athlete, I would always think someone would show up and would say, you know what, I'm your brother. I had this fantasy sometimes of that. But realistically, what was I going to do with that information? Right. I

29:53wasn't ready to hear it. And later on, I did hear about about my brother saying, that he collected all the siblings and went looking for me and went where they thought that I would be from what they were told that I was either in Las Vegas, Phoenix or Tucson. And at the time that they went actually looking for me, I was already in college. So I was not there. But I wonder, how would I have taken

30:28that information had I been located? I wasn't ready. I wasn't mature enough. I was only thinking of self all the time. And so probably very grateful that that, I don't know, may or may not, I guess it's hard to say how it would have turned out. But I sure, sure, you know, have used this as a journey, continually to say, you know, to, to do some self discovery, like there are a lot of things that an adoptee goes through unknowingly. You know, this just don't know, even though you have two

31:04very incredible loving parents, you know, you don't look like them. You know, and and once the once it's been told that you're already adopted, you always wonder, what is my real name then? What would it have been? And then it dissipates, it goes away. Because you are who you are. This is how you were raised, no matter what, you know, but when you go back and you have certain traits, you go, I wonder if that's why I why I love this. I wonder. Yeah. So that's just

31:35curiosity. Again, you know, I majored in economics, I should have majored in sociology. Totally. I think every most people would go back and pick a different major, but heartbeat, man, no way would I have been half as miserable. I have two follow up questions from that. So you found out when you were 10, do you remember how that happened? Yeah, yeah, you know, my every day, my, my adopted mom and dad, they, my dad had a

32:10sixth grade education, and my mom had only completed eighth grade. And so at this particular junction, I would come home every day, but they, they wanted their children to have this future. And so they sacrificed to send us to private schools, my sister and I are both adopted. And, and so that was the that was their thing, you're going to have a private education from elementary, middle, to

32:40high school. And then after that, you know, they felt that you had the tools to succeed because they couldn't tell. Well, here we are at this junction, and we would do homework together. That's how my mom stayed sharp, you know, she wanted to see how I was doing. She was curious, she wanted to do her education, she kept on going. And so this one day, we're just doing homework together. And then she says, you know, I want you to sit on the couch. And she gets next to me and says, what I think most adoptive parents say, you know, you

33:11are not blood of my blood, you know, but I am I love you incredible, you know, but I want you to know you are adopted. And at that particular moment, I don't know what adopted means, you know, so trying to explain to me. And then I, I'm left with that information. So at the time, I have a baseball and a glove, and a, and the street would have sidewalks that were that were raised, and I would

33:41just throw the ball against this, that raised cement and it would kick back and that's how you know, play catch with yourself. But if you missed it, you know, okay, well, now you want to go chase the ball. Yeah, but I remember another cousin friend of mine down the street coming over. And I was like, Hey, you know what, I just heard I was adopted. Not knowing exactly the same deal, not knowing exactly what the heck I'm talking about. And nobody knows. So it

34:12was kind of ignored. Now I'm definitely curious, like, well, I'm the only one. Now, out of everybody, you know, all the time, I would think that now like you'd see all these families together. But I'm, I'm adopted. And every time I would mention sometimes like that, I feel like, oh, they didn't know how to take that information either. And as I went to school, and I shared that with teachers, only, only the ones that were probably learned enough in the world to

34:45understand, well, that's fantastic, you know, and look at the sacrifice of the things in your we went to a loving family, that type of teacher could say that to you. And another would be like, Oh, hmm, like, wonder if that sadness sadness to you, you know, yeah. And feel, feel sorry for you. And so I started to notice that that between whenever I would tell people. So if, if you could go back and maybe talk to some of those teachers or other

35:16people in the community, what would you hope that they would know or how they would respond? Well, that life circumstances are not, you know, they're, they are what they are, you know, nobody has a perfect lifestyle or how they got to where they are. But to appreciate differences and maybe how someone came about, you know, in today's society, we, we fight against, you know, just about every single thing you want to talk about. A differing of opinions and no, no collaboration, no understanding. So

35:48maybe not how I would have done it, but I totally agree. Understand what you're coming from. And I can move on with that information. I'm not trying to judge you. I'm just trying to say like, Wow, how that happened. I would want them to know that as educators now, like, not everybody comes from a cookie cutter type scenario. And a certain word or two can make some, we've all heard it can make someone's life remarkable. And yet, a certain word or two can also make

36:20someone commit suicide. Yeah, you know, and that at that point is how I was feeling or if I wasn't, if I didn't have the game of basketball to take me away and to have something to focus on and be as an individual alone with it, think about maybe what my thoughts could have been otherwise had I not had a stable upbringing, I would have felt a sense of not belonging, you know, who knows, who knows what I thought. But that's how I changed my opinion on things. I was like,

36:53Wow, I'm just observing the way two separate teachers will take this information. Quite remarkable to me. I'm just observing the way two separate teachers will take this information. Quite remarkable to me. Yeah. You know, how much are they willing to understand that this is not the norm? Forget the fact of my own, my own age group, they don't understand, you know, that that will never be the case. But, but that's what I would do going back, talking to

37:24teachers and so on be like, you know, you got to understand what that is, first of all, but it's almost now shown like, you know, the word Middle East, you know, conjures up certain images and people and terrorism and you name it, this and that. But, you know, I, I perhaps would have been the same way had I not lived there. And then I didn't understand what Sunni and Shiite was. I had no idea. Yeah. But I do. And it and because of that, have a, a much broader

37:58education and a much better way to see the view of the world as to what that means. It's not, not, not everybody radical and all the other nonsense. That's not it. It's a way of life. Just like Catholicism and Protestant, you know, it's a way of life. It's different belief system. Are they both fantastic people everywhere in the world are fantastic people. There are also, but they come with their skewed vision of what they think an American is as well.

38:30Yeah. And it's up to everybody to have this dialogue back and forth to say, you know, I understand. I'm not sure. You know, that's it. That's it. In terms of getting back to that, you know, that's, that's, that's that education that I would try to say to people like, you know, let's have it just an understanding and be curious, go look, go have questions, go find out answers for yourself from something you don't know. Yeah. It's okay to say, I don't know. I mean, many times in my life, Shaun, that has saved me because instead of

39:02inventing something or thinking that I'm some something, I have some knowledge and I always now say, I don't know. Yeah. Completely absolved at this point now, because it's the truth. I don't know. Couldn't even begin to answer that. Now I want to find out and yeah, I'll be curious and discover, but I'm not going to come from some viewpoint where I think I invented something when I did. I love that. So basically be curious, be willing to learn, learn from people's

39:33experiences, and maybe step out from what box you're in and realize that there are different perspectives. Yeah, there's some incredible literature that's been done all the way, you know, from the 40s on this research that has been done on the adopted child. It's remarkable, you know, because you have to take everything with a grain of salt in terms of like when and where that came from, what their background is, you know, but that's why you say, you know, take in information, but understand

40:07where that information came from and when it was and from whose perspective and then morph it into what yours is now and what your belief is, because I can't not tell you how to love someone and I cannot tell you how to raise the child. That is yours. We can avoid people want to offer the, this is the way. It's not, there's no way I can offer that.

40:39And so the journey of an adopted parent is going to be laced with some intriguing things to build that character and overall curiosity and to knowledge of the child they get as well. It's not them versus us as parents. It's none of that, you know, but that takes some intellect as well to digest that information too, as a parent. Yeah. Yeah. We're learning and experiencing that.

41:10Yeah. It was an experience. I'm sure that my mom wanted to share that with me, but at the same time, man, I could not break her. Had I done it though, I would have found out sooner or have known, but I know my own relationship would have been strained and I didn't have that curiosity. Like it really wasn't there at the time. What was I going to do? Cause I, what was I going to do with the information now? Yes. Now I have that curiosity.

41:41Now I really want it to know. And it's, although it's unfortunate that I didn't catch them when they were alive. It's okay. I have no regrets about that. It's awesome. I found out that's all that matters to me now. So I'm thinking about other people and maybe the similar situation where you were at 50 who have this curiosity, who are stepping into this journey. What advice would you give to them that are searching?

42:15Well, you know, you, you're going to hit as in life, you're going to hit up so many roadblocks, you're going to just be, think that there's no point in doing this. And there is, there are, there are, I guess the one thing that I hate to hear over and over again, Shaun is when somebody says no, and why, why can't you think outside the box? There's always a solution. No. And that, that never has worked well for me because if that's the case,

42:49then what do we do? We just stop and can't do something. Of course we can, we can figure out a solution. So that's what I would say to them. Be, be curious. Know that there's going to be some major obstacles, figure out ways around it, through it, over it. It's that quest that will, will be, it is in fact a journey. It will be unbelievable just by the little tidbits of information that you get, because you will have some sort of piece that you putting back

43:21into where you came from. And, but I think you must be mature enough to understand that not everybody will be appreciative of that discovery as well as possibility, but that's, that's their problem, not yours. And so as you can insulate yourself with that curiosity and confidence, I think it works well. But if you're not at all confident and you're worried about what people are going to think or do, then perhaps you're going to be hesitant and

43:54scared and nervous, but. But I, if, if anyone would at least know where they came from, I mean, that's, that's invaluable. They have an idea. And, and as I think, as the older you get, you're more curious as to who, who the lineage was before you, how did they arrive? Because you're about to leave a lineage and as well. And so I was definitely curious about that. And I think that that's, that's what I tell and share with people be, be ready.

44:28Just look for every opportunity. You never know who, who's willing to help. And when you do ask, I mean, they come out to help. It's remarkable. I mean, I had pharmacists in the city, senators in the country, the mayor, TV, radio broadcast, everybody wanted to help in this journey because it's their story too. Yeah. You know, they know this came from here.

44:59You are from here and you are coming back. They feel like that's your, that's your right to know. And they're willing to help. And they, they themselves get this discovery like, wow, geez, this is how it was. Yeah. So that's how it is. I don't look back in sadness or judgment. I mean, mom had a, an evening with somebody. I can see why it's cold, frigid, nothing to do.

45:32TV, no internet, nothing Friday, Saturday party gathering. And yet now how do you feed another, another family? Another person when it's already probably desperate enough to do that. And even if you're not married, how, how are you going to pull this off? Yeah. Well, that's a decision, right? So now we're judging. So someone in the audience will probably say, well, that was a decision they made. They must live up to that.

46:04I don't know. One to judge. I can't say we all go through trials and tribulations and we will make judgment calls in life that will be questioned. But they didn't terminate the life. They simply gave it to someone else. And again, like, like I said, I was, I was the beneficiary. I didn't, I didn't have anything negative to say.

46:34Man, I love your perspective. I love so much of what you're saying. And one thing that I just want to highlight, uh, what you just said. We can't live the experience that somebody else had, um, or is having right now. And we're going to probably fill in all the blanks with previous experiences we've had, and if we try to make a judgment, it's going to be off. Um, and so letting, giving people their space and understanding that we're all different, we all have unique experiences and we're never going to really know why

47:06someone chose to do what they did, but to find peace, to find, uh, just to be okay with the way that things were, uh, it's probably going to give the most comfort and peace to us. Yeah. Some societies, you know, it's, it's taboo to talk about, uh, an adopted child. Yeah. You know, that's, that's me. I'm here in Japan and I want to find, and it, they, they have centers, you know,

47:40because I, I contribute back to Mexico to an adoptive, uh, an orphanage that I possibly was going to be in once. That's what my contribution is. I give them money every month because I see the children that are there. They don't get adopted. They, they are in there from young to old. And okay, but I feel a sense of contribution because I look at them and they say, I see the same face. And, uh, so I'm curious.

48:13And so here I asked the same question of who, who, who's been adopted? Cause I want to see them. I want to meet them. I want them to know, you know, I'm in the same position that they were. That's the other side of this, you know, is the curiosity and the because what you and your wife have doing is just spectacular for your own selfish reasons to have a family for sure. But the fact that you were told you could not have it didn't stop you from wanting to be parents. Yeah. And take on this next journey that's going to be laced with other

48:48things is not natural birth. It's okay. You're about to expand horizons that you never even knew. You're going to have remarkable breakthroughs and you're going to discover about yourselves as parents, you know, like at what point do we say something to them? What point do they understand? What point is it too late? You know, you know, the, all these things are always something. And what about the others? The birth parents is today's different today. They have open, open records.

49:19Okay. What do you do? Yeah. I mean, for us, like having, having open adoptions and connection with our children's birth parents from birth and to now, um, just has been amazing. We've developed some such deep relationships with some people that we likely would have never really been friends with, but now we're family and it's special and it's, it's so, it's so awesome.

49:49Yeah. That's what I want to contribute to as well, Shaun. So, you know, I definitely want to move into new phases in my life. You know, I've been a, I've been a basketball coach for my whole life, really, you know, 30, 30 years at least. Yeah. And it's, it's that, but it's, there's a lot of times I go, you know, winning and losing a game. Is this all there is to life? No, there's so much more to what I do. You know, I, I do a lot of things. I do a lot of things. You know, I do a lot of different things, you know, I use, I use basketball

50:23still as a tool, but I talk about a lot of things, and this is what I would love to do is talk to people like that. Cause there is an instant bond. I know what they're doing and what they're feeling. I don't necessarily have answers, but I have my, from my own perspective, especially the search, the search I definitely went on. Man, I'm so excited for people to listen to this episode. I think they're just going to grasp it.

50:54Like every word you're saying, it's, it's great. Thank you. Cause I went everywhere to look and then I became just more, more and more curious and, and once I found out who my father was and where they were from, now a lot of things make sense. You know, now you start to piece together history as well. It has much more involved. It's not just a family. If you really look at the totality of things, you look at the immigration cycles, you start to see, now you start to look at past photos and get a

51:25history that changes things immensely. You know, and, uh, but again, you gotta come from it with that open book mentality, open minded mentality. I'm not closed off. And if you're not really ready to go on that pursuit, you know, you will hit a lot, like I said, you'll hit a lot of roadblocks and you'll think, I don't understand why I'm doing this because you just want to find out where you're from. That's all I wanted to do. But boy, did I end up with an incredible journey through the Mormon faith,

51:57not knowing about the colonies that existed there, the, my, my mom's former employer. I heard before he died the detailed information of how he went about this. He was from there of all places, had no idea. And then they're connected to the Romney family. Mitt Romney was from there as well. This was a mind boggling, you know, I, I, I attended UC San Diego. He was a donor. He lived in La Jolla.

52:28I reached out to him. I mean, this is the story that everyone wanted to help because it's just the journey, you know, they're from these places. So if nothing else came about it, you got a story to share. Yeah. And maybe it never gets solved, but I, I do remember going to see my, my nieces once and, uh, and there was a person on my right. Maybe 30 years old and the person on my left, I had a middle seat in this

53:02airplane and another lady, maybe sixties, seventies, maybe. And I share the story of me going. And that's my brother who was the one with the picture. And now I'm going to go see his daughters. They were in tears because they're, they're genuinely reflecting upon what I thought was a million ways of perspective that they're having from. Like the older lady definitely has seen things from her, her viewpoint.

53:33And yet they're both emotional and maybe one starting to have a child, a birth or you never know what their total scenarios are, but man, what they filled with emotion, that's, that's something that's to be shared. You know, because it's like the, the journey of the adopted self, there's a book about that called the journey of the adopted self is that highly intellectual from a multitude of perspectives of it's, it's a worthy read.

54:06And, uh, and that's, like I said, something sociological is like, man, if I share the story, I wonder how people are going to react with total emotion as if my God, you're about to, you're about to go see something that would have never existed before. Yeah. Yeah. So it's remarkable, but I mean, it, I commend what you and your wife are doing because I feel like a sense of affinity, a tight bond with you because

54:37I, because I'm an adopted child, I'm a child of a child of a child. Because I'm an adopted child. Yeah. Uh, I think many of the people that we've talked to, um, to be part of this community, no matter what part you are, no matter how you fit in, um, we can connect with each other and understand at least to some degree, the experience in ways that people outside of, you know, adoption don't really understand.

55:08And so that's, I mean, that's why we love hearing experiences. We, we get to put another puzzle piece into this larger picture of what we call adoption and every, every perspective that we get helps shape what, what this really looks like. So, oh man, we really, really appreciate you and your story. Maybe just one more thing to kind of finish up with. Um, our time has really flown by. I've just kind of been staring at this thing to what you're saying, but, um, what

55:38else would you hope people know about adoption or about your experience that might help them? Well, you know, it depends on, uh, you know, out of, out of the United States, you may, may or may not be records of it. So that's, that's something you have to be aware of. Most likely there aren't, there aren't going to be records of it after a certain time period. Um, and it's not to say that it's, that it's taboo or something like that,

56:10either, just sometimes they just didn't have the ability to do that. To document it and keep the records. Yeah. Uh, so that, that, that in of itself is widely known. Uh, and if you do go on the journey, I mean, you don't, you are certainly having to be mentally tough enough to understand. Not everybody wants to be discovered. It could change their entire life cycle. It could be a secret. Yeah. But it's for yourself.

56:42It's not like you're doing this for someone else. It's do you're doing it for you. And even if they didn't want to meet you, well, there are some people that definitely need to be in your corner because it will be mentally challenging to take that rejection, you know, again, you know, what it, what it feels like. It may feel like, so there is that, that, that side of it. The other side, how I approached it was I know who I am. I want to find out where I'm from. I have no idea what it's going to be like.

57:15And if they don't like me, I didn't see them for 50 years, man. How am I supposed to know now? You know, and if I do, wow, I'm going to have a great relationship for the rest of the time that I do know them. And who else am I going to build along this journey? How's I'm going to have a relationship with nieces and nephews I never even knew. So sweet. Well, John, thank you. Thank you so much for being an open book, for letting us ask so much and for sharing a remarkable story.

57:46And again, I love your perspective, love your attitude toward the situation. And yeah, I think that a lot of people are going to look at this and say, yeah, I think that a lot of people are going to learn some great things from you. So thank you so much. Appreciate it, Shaun. Like I said, I'm an open book and I certainly hope that any listener doesn't feel intimidated at all to reach out to me. I respond to everybody. So it would be fantastic.

58:17What what's the best way for people to connect with you? Instagram or is there? I'm on everything, you know, so every form of communication. So it's not hard to find me. I'm on Facebook mainly. I'm on Instagram as well. Okay. I'm on, you know, LinkedIn, you know, you name it. I'm on everything. Okay. Yeah, good. We'll we'll put links to your Facebook and Instagram and the show notes for the episode and we'll put them in our social media posts, too. So thank you so much. Thanks, brother. Wow.

58:53I loved this interview so much. Such a great episode. Thank you so much to John and Shaun. Nice job. Yeah, I really like talking to John. In fact, he's the type of guy that I kind of just want to like pick up the phone and call and just talk to because so easy to talk to a great listener. But yeah, just easy to connect to. I really, really enjoyed that. Yeah, he is very personable. As I was listening, I was like, yeah, I feel like I am great friends with this man and I haven't actually talked to him, but so likable, so genuine.

59:26What a great guy. And I think he was very sincere at the end where he just invited people to reach out and connect if for any reason, but especially related to adoption. I'm sure he would love to connect and talk. There are a couple things in this episode that I really liked. A couple things that I just want to point out. One, I love how much he loves family. And you could tell by the way he talked about his biological family and his adoptive family

59:57and the family that he has now with his wife and children. That he is a family guy and that was really apparent. I loved that. Yeah, I also loved how he talked about the importance of not judging people who are in tricky situations. We can't understand anyone else's perspective because we haven't walked in their shoes. We haven't lived their life. And so avoiding judgment and just asking questions for understanding instead of for judgment. That's such great advice in all aspects of life, I think, but great advice in the adoption

60:29community, especially. Another thing I really like about John in general, but it came across in a lot of our conversation, is that he chooses the positive. He chooses to see the good that he can find in their situation. And when he was going into his reunification journey, he didn't know what the end would be as most don't. He, you know, first saw, well, if I could at least see the hospital where I was born, that gives me a piece of my identity.

61:00And maybe that's enough. Well, and I loved also just really quick that thought that you're not looking for your birth family for anyone else. You're looking for you, right? Like you're trying to find this missing piece of your story. And of course, we care about other people and their perspectives or needs, but I think that's a really important perspective that this is a self-discovery journey for adoptees. And it's okay for them to be prioritizing their own needs in that because it is them

61:30searching for that missing piece for themselves. Yeah, all along the way, I just love how positive he is, how he looks for the good in situations. And even when it's not ideal or there's a roadblock, we still could see the good and find the good in that. So beautiful. Such a great perspective. Yeah. So thanks so much again to John for his willingness to share with us. Yeah, he is so sweet. I just keep saying that. What a nice guy. So thank you, John.

62:00Great, great interview. Thank you so much for listening to this episode and we'll be back in a couple of weeks.

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