Broken Adoptions, Bold Advocacy with Dawn J. Post

0:00I think that there's some really incredible adoption and trauma -informed therapists that understand the dynamics of adoption. Kids when they become adolescents are going to be a little bit crazy anyway, given all those hormones and everything else. And, you know, is there a way of balancing what's happening in terms of professional assistance or interventions beyond sending them away? Welcome

0:41to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 122. We're the Nelsons and I am Shaun. Today in this episode, Lanette has an interview with Dawn J. Post. She is based in New York City and she is a children's rights attorney. And this episode takes a deep dive into a challenging part of adoption. This conversation with Lanette and

1:13Dawn does have a couple themes, including child abuse and neglect that might be triggering. Maybe you may want to skip this episode. As a podcast, we try to share many perspectives and angles from the adoption community. And this conversation with Dawn does touch on some parts of adoption that unfortunately are happening in our country

1:44and in the world that we live in and I hope that as you take a listen to this conversation and hear of Dawn's experiences and the things that she's advocating for and the experiences of others that she is relating that you might see in your sphere how you might better support the adoptees that you know that you might interact with. And while the stories and experiences that Dawn references are more on an extreme end, I do believe that

2:16there's something that we can all learn from this conversation. So we'll go ahead and cut to that conversation with Dawn and Lanette and just want to thank her so much for taking some of her time to share about her experiences and what she's trying to do and accomplish. We are here on the podcast with Dawn J. Post. Dawn, welcome. We're so happy to have you here. Thank

2:48you so much for having me. Thank you. To start off, can you tell us about yourself? So I'm a children's rights attorney that's been based in New York City for a few decades, and I've primarily worked in the field of child welfare and foster care. And so I, over a decade ago, began really looking at the issue of what I call broken adoptions, youth who were no longer living with their adoptive parent for a variety of reasons. And if they returned to foster care, if they

3:19were homeless. And I began running a study and publishing and speaking about this issue and really trying to engage stakeholders to not think solely about making adoptions happen faster. but to make adoptions better and really ensure that the connection is there, the unconditional commitment, and that any supports and services that can be put into place. And so that work has developed into what I'm doing now. That's

3:50amazing. That sounds like really important work. Can you tell me how you got here? What brought you to this work? So well, way back when or now? whatever you want to share. I would love to know both if you're up for it. So actually, I decided I was going to be a lawyer for children when I was 10. I had heard of a really horrific murder in my state. And I decided that I apparently was reading a lot of Perry Mason at the time was living in the middle of nowhere Maine and

4:21no TV. And so I decided that I if that child had a lawyer that that could outcome might have been different. So I fast -tracked to go to law school, in fact, dropping out of high school when I was 16 to get to college and to fast -track myself. And so that's what led me ultimately to my career path, which I do not regret at all, even though it's a very difficult career path. That's amazing. Wow. And so from a young age,

4:53you've felt connected to this cause and to helping. Absolutely, 100%. And Maine doesn't even have attorneys for children. So I didn't even realize what that might look like. And it's a very different state to state. Even now, I think there's about 26 states that don't have attorneys for children. And I think it's incredibly important for youth to have a voice on what's happening in their lives. And you have a lot of adults who... don't know what's going on with that child and who

5:23better to speak about it than that child. And a lawyer can help facilitate that. You also work with an organization that you started. Themis People on Advocacy. And I titled it Themis in the heat of the moment while I was working a complicated case because Themis stands for the goddess of justice. And so that's where that came from. But in 2024, March of last year, I was invited to Jamaica to be able to assist with three abandoned adoptees who had been removed

5:55from what some people would call the so -called troubled teen industry, a facility. And they had actually been brought into foster care in Jamaica. And their adoptive parents allegedly were not planning for their return to the US. And so I flew down on my dime to be able to try to help facilitate and engage state and county systems. and the federal government and how to return these children. And I knew it would be difficult because bureaucracies, interstate issues can be very, very complicated if anyone's ever

6:26heard of the ICPC, which I'm sure people on here might've, but this was a whole nother layer of complicated issues in terms of really the states and counties said, you know, not our problem outside of our jurisdiction. And so, When I left after three weeks, they actually were placed in the permanent custody of Jamaica because they had been left in the foster care system for over 60 days. And these were three adoptees of color

6:57from three different states. And so while I was in Jamaica, I learned of another facility that allegedly had 160 to 180 adoptees from the United States. And I was shocked. I've always considered the troubled teen industry to be a bit removed from the work that I do, and particularly because people might think that it's kind of the middle of the rich white kids that might be sent away for issues is really somewhat the idea I had.

7:27And I had no idea the number of adoptees that were actually being placed there, and not only being placed, but warehoused and abandoned until they were 18. And this was a mix of international and domestic adoptions. And so while I was in Jamaica, I filed the paperwork to start Themis Youth Law and Advocacy. unfunded, unfortunately, because I felt that the need was just so great and immediate that I felt that I had to do it at that point. And I've been working with survivors

7:59from that particular program and also other programs and continuing the work really, which is about broken adoptions, but now includes the space of youth being abandoned in trouble team facilities. Wow. And so adoptive parents or former adoptive parents will abandon the children that they adopted. And are there repercussions for these adults? They're not. And in fact, I was really shocked that for the three abandoned adoptees in Jamaica that I originally worked with, because you couldn't

8:31have a clearer case of abandoned men. They were left in the care of Jamaica's foster care system for over 60 days. And their adoptive parents didn't want them back. And then they were placed in the permanent custody of Jamaica. I don't think there's any way of getting around that. And so I think adoptive parents sometimes get a pass. And maybe people on this podcast will disagree with me. But I've often seen there's a double standard when it comes to biological parents and with adoptive parents. And I think that that's just something we have to recognize

9:02and be aware of and acknowledge. And maybe that's what's happening in this instance. Maybe there was racial biases around this as well. And also I talked about the jurisdictional issue, but you couldn't have clear cases in my mind of abandonment. And so one of the things that I hope to do in the next year or so, and I've already begun engaging stakeholders and policymakers in DC, is around making sure that there's accountability. Because the youth that I'm working with and those three

9:33originally, what they talk a lot about is how can they get away with this? Why am I the one suffering and there's no accountability for what they did? And so I think that from a justice perspective, from their perspective, you know, accountability is really important. And I feel like we need to see more of that in our civil and criminal systems. Absolutely. That is shocking. Such a wild thing. Have you seen what happened

10:03after these children, these adoptees are abandoned? What is next for them? So in my earlier years when I was really digging into this, and so to give you an example just what the numbers might look like, and these numbers are about a decade old, but one law firm here in New York, they did a manual count of their caseload to find out how many kids had been returned that had

10:33been adopted. It was 200 out of a thousand clients. That was one fifth of their caseload. And the adoption subsidy was continuing to be paid to those adoptive parents. And so we worked a lot on those issues here in New York City. We just passed legislation about the adoption subsidy. And in fact, California just passed legislation as well that prohibits now the placement of youth and out of state residential care with the use

11:03of what's called AAP funds, Adoption Assistance Program funds. Because we were seeing a bit of double dipping where adoptive parents were getting paid the subsidy. in one instance in the news article that just came out today up to $53 ,000 while their child was in residential care paid for by the county. And California has laws prohibiting foster children from being placed there. So why would we be placing vulnerable adoptees there? And so that's a loophole that was just closed.

11:33But in terms of what I'm seeing is no contact with their adoptive families. When they've been in these facilities for years, they're being dumped back into the US coming back from Jamaica and often they're very vulnerable, no education, no skills, no ability to navigate. And I give you a really glaring example, a young lady that I've been working with who came out of that program and was dumped back in Florida. She said, she tried to get a retail job and she did not know

12:04what change was or how to count the change and so because she had been in this residential for five years completely warehoused and she had been an international adoptee that had been dumped fairly quickly and so the fact that she had to study at night just to learn how to count change to be able to get that job is really Really significant and and another and and she's actually done incredibly well, but that was all because of her own work

12:36Without really any help from anyone else She's been able she self -studied for three years for the GED and she just got her driver's license at 21 But she's rare. She's rare because most of the youth that I'm seeing are in pretty desperate Circumstances where they've been trafficked where they're homeless where they are You know food insecure if they're not homeless and really struggling to adapt to life back in the united states when they've been institutionalized for so years in

13:07another country. And so for them it's incredibly complicated and so i've really been trying to raise awareness to the states and federal government around this. To be able to. Try to create solutions is this an issue where we don't have enough post adoption support. Is this an issue of financial, you know, and that there there's not enough money there. So and because it's cheaper in another country that they're warehousing them in another

13:37country or. because I know of at least three abandoned adoptees placed in this facility where they were left there at seven and they're almost 17. That's a decade without contact with their adoptive parents who clearly just wanted to wash their hands of them. They're being warehoused till they're 18 and then placed in what might be very desperate circumstances at that age. Here in New York, what I often see is just couch hopping, really a lot of instability and And

14:09oftentimes I'm hearing from adoptive parents that, well, it's behavioral issues, emotional issues for the international adoptees. What I've heard from them about their experience was I didn't love them fast enough. They expected me to just come here and attach and just, you know, be grateful. And so we have to be really cautious around some of that. And that's what I'm afraid is driving some of this abandonment. Wow. And

14:39so, like a conditional kind of love where if you aren't attaching, the repercussion is like you're out. That's right. And how can we expect an international adoptee who may have already had layers of trauma beyond... you know the separation from their family perhaps life in an orphanage abuse and neglect that they may have had there and then when they come to the united states why wouldn't they have difficulty adapting one young person i spoke to said that they were punished for food hoarding. They came from an orphanage

15:11where it was, you know, fend for yourself and grab that food, you know, uh, out of the tray. And so of course they were food hoarding, but rather than help treat that they were punished for that. And it was seen as a issue of disobedience rather than just a natural trauma response. And I have found with the adoptees that I'm working with is as often they're just normal adolescents. But somehow that behavior that you would accept

15:41in a bio child gets pathologized into something else. And they end up going to these places that may not be meeting their needs and where they may actually be experiencing really significant abuse and neglect. That was so heartbreaking. And especially here on the podcast, we talk a lot about ethical adoptions, how we can break different stereotypes. change mentalities that see adoptees as lesser, but then hearing that

16:11things like this are happening so prevalently is so concerning because that's living proof that it's still the mindset of many. No, and ethical adoption is so important in any adoption conversation because we're learning about obviously in the international or inter -country arena. where there have been unethical practices in terms of sale of children. And also here when we look at it domestically, we oftentimes are ignoring the family ties, which can be incredibly

16:43significant to a child. Even name changes. It's shocking to me, particularly with children of color, to see adoptive parents change. the name at eight and nine, where they have a pretty good sense of their own identity at that point, but their names get changed to white in them. And that's really difficult on young people. And then also, I've done a lot of work around what I call post -adoption sibling visitation and how those connections get lost, let alone with

17:15biological parents. And so some of the more successful adoptions that I've encountered, and I'm not anti adoption by any means, I feel that there's a perhaps a better way of doing it. And the cases I'm seeing are obviously the worst of the worst. But I've seen a lot of triad or in terms of open adoption practices that have been really supportive of the emotional health of the child and the physical health of that child where the child becomes the centerpiece. And I would also say,

17:47and certainly I'm not a therapist, I'm an attorney, but I think it's important to recognize that oftentimes blame is put solely on the adopted child and people aren't looking at themselves to say, how am I reacting? Could I be adapting in a different way? Could I be handling this in a different way? Rather, it's automatic that people are blaming the adopted child and saying that it's their issue or their behavioral issue that is ruining the family that ends up resulting

18:17in them displaced. As we're thinking about this, I keep going back to what can we do? And I love that you are advocating here and doing so much. Do you have any thoughts on how we could implement better screening processes or education for prospective adopted parents to hopefully avoid this. You know, education is one of the key points. I know that in foster care, there are many states that you only get the original map training or foster

18:49parent training. at the very beginning. So it's been years and there's no follow -up, like an attorney may have to do what's called CLEs. There's no requirement to be able to keep up your license in many states. And then when they adopt, there's no real training around that. They may just be relying on their home study and the fact that they went through a foster care training years ago. And so particularly for different generations of adoptive parents, what I've seen is a lack of awareness around what they can expect in the

19:22teenage years. And that's, you know, and because when I see them breaking is in those pre -teen, teen years, right around 13. And then there, you know, you have regular adolescent development and, and so I think training around trauma. and around just normal adolescent behavior and development, and also what to expect in adoption when they start looking, you know, in their own identity. Maybe they were adopted very young, but now they

19:52want to know themselves. And I think there could be a lot more training around these issues, but it's also a bit shocking to me that I've met adoptive parents who had no idea what their child's diagnoses were or therapeutic plan. and then seem shocked, you know, a year later and say, well, well, and when I asked, well, how do you, you were getting a subsidy and a special or an exceptional rate because this is a special needs child. What do you think that was for? And they

20:23can't answer. So are we adopting for the right reasons? Is there unconditional commitment? And so I've actually, some of the recommendations I've had is, you know, Can we do a better matching process? Can we, rather than just finding a bed, particularly at a foster, and can we, if there are psychiatric issues and we see a child's been hospitalized, can we do a better assessment to make sure the adoptive parent can meet their needs? Or if they previously put in a notice,

20:55How can we evaluate them to make sure that that commitment and that care is there? And then inter -country adoptions, I think that that's a very, very different issue in terms of licensing and how they are able to adopt and what happens with those approvals. And I think that there's really just a lack of oversight around that, which has resulted in children who've been adopted even

21:27kidnapped and adopted and taken from their families and then being re -traumatized and re -abused here and it used to be called re -homing that came out after Megan Toohey did her article in 2013 I think and you know that's a very kind of cute way of saying it's almost like a pet but There needs to be more law around this, that you shouldn't be able to just give up an adopted child with a guardianship form that isn't court

22:01approved, that there aren't home studies, that there isn't official requirements around there, whether it's domestic or foreign adoptions. You've talked about this first case that you found with the three Well, one was a domestic from Chicago, and two were international in that they were Ethiopian and Haitian. None were from Jamaica.

22:32These were all US adoptees. They were from the states of Michigan, Kentucky, and Illinois. And so two were inner country and one was domestic. In my investigation of this other facility, which has connections to a facility that was closed in the US for the torture of children, which is incredibly concerning. And unfortunately, there are adoptive parents who who seem to ignore some of those red flags and warning signs. And

23:03as I said, have left their kids there for up to a decade, where the children are now taking the names of staff there. So These were all American children. I really need to emphasize that because it seems strange. Why are they entering foster care in another country, which is why it was so shocking that there wasn't more action taken around their abandonment. This is somehow legal. Are these adopted parents? I feel like I shouldn't be saying parents. Are these adults who are sending

23:33these children to these places, are they making any sort of payments? Is there any kind of change? They are paying. They are paying. And so for a domestic adopt a parent they more than likely are receiving a subsidy i know that here in new york city the exceptional rate you can get over four thousand dollars a month so it's possible that they're actually getting more from the subsidy and then they're paying much cheaper because it's jamaica where it's unlicensed unregulated and there's no oversight and so they're they're

24:05really just warehousing them. Some might be wealthy and so they are independently able to do it. However, one of the kids, not an adoptee, but another kid that was there, they were placed there with educational funds. And so special education funding of about $8 ,000 a month was being used to place them in this abusive facility where Frank, and this is the original case I went down. to Jamaica for where they were literally

24:35tortured, where they were water boarded. And so I see system involvement in most of the children's cases, whether it's juvenile, whether it's an open abuse or neglect case, and then they send the child away or special education. And if we are also using state dollars around that, that is incredibly concerning. Absolutely. Wow. What you're seeing is that This is an increasing pattern or is this a pattern that's been happening for years and it's been happening for years and unfortunately,

25:08no one wants to have the conversation and this is what I Talking about in the beginning when I began looking at this in 2011, no one wanted to talk about it because particularly in domestic adoptions, we have the adoption and Safe Families Act, ASFA. And there are timelines put on agencies and states to try to get children adopted as quickly as possible if they've been in care 18 out of 22 months. And so when you have states and that's also only adoption is prioritized over all other forms of permanency. There's no

25:41Incentives that are provided for other forms of permanency and that also I think is an issue because if we're going to prioritize and give financial incentives for adoption, then give it to all forms of permanency because they're just as important. And these children are losing contact with all their families and then end up with no one that they can turn to and rely on when ultimately they are released from a program or when they're on the streets. Wow, that is

26:12so heartbreaking. And I also want to say, I apologize, that there probably is some very, very well -meaning adoptive parents who just don't know what else to do and are fairly desperate. But when I initially began raising the alarm around this particular facility in Jamaica, only three adoptive parents, to my knowledge, went to take their children out based upon what I was relaying. And I spoke to many of them, explaining the interviews that

26:45I had, what the children, what young adult survivors were saying, what the lawsuit that where that's the settlement in that case was for over $100 million. The facility that they're connected to here in the United States that was closed for the torture of children. That's an incredible amount. And so, but they all seem to say, you know, but they don't do it now. And can you really show that they're doing it right now, even though

27:15the survivors I'm working with aren't out of the program that long. And so it seems like they are willfully blind. And I also, though, in an article I wrote, talked about abuse by proxy. And this sounds kind of horrific to say, but a lot of kids that I've encountered were also exploring their sexual identity. And so they end up being sent there, a country with very strict anti -sodomy laws. And that's a significant

27:48issue for many of the youth that are there. And I can't say they call themselves therapeutic, but certainly they're not licensed in any way. And I have reviewed probably 180. staff and former staff who work there. They're one of the biggest employers in that particular area of Jamaica, and they're barely high school diplomas, you know, and that's also a British system. So how are they trying to even educate American kids? So, you know, I think there's a willfully blind.

28:18I think there's racial dynamics, unfortunately, that the young black boy that you adopted who was so cute, all of a sudden they're a teenager, and then they're perceived as threatening. And so there are a lot of different dynamics. that are coming into play with that. And unfortunately, I've learned now that there are 129 facilities in the United States that are geared towards adoptive parents. That's an incredible number because any given program, you could say that

28:48there's about 32 % are adoptees, even though they make up less than 1 % of the population. And to find that there may actually be 129 programs that in some states, because of religious exemptions, they may have no oversight. And that's where the abuse may most often occur. You're seeing that these adoptive parents may just not know what else to do. And so they're turning to these systems that are hurting children. Yes. Or, as

29:21I said, abuse by proxy, deliberately sending them to a place with very known anti -sodomy laws, you know, a very cruel form of almost conversion therapy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so heartbreaking. And so you are working in advocacy, working to combat this. Have you seen any promising signs of change? What do we need to do to help? Well, I think that we need some change in federal and state laws, and I've had some promising conversations.

29:53But, you know, right now, the greatest need that I'm seeing is just emergency help for these young people that are 18, back in the US, no skills, no ability to be able to support themselves and no education, and they're in a vulnerable place. where they've been isolated for so long that they end up becoming prey to traffickers. And so I'm working with a lot of young people where I'm trying to relocate them to another state

30:24and trying to contact systems. I've contacted state systems because I do believe that state child welfare systems have an obligation to the youth that they are paying a subsidy for. And if that child was abused in these programs, there should be some responsibility, particularly when the subsidy gets paid to 21, to take those children back and somehow get them help. They may not be back in foster care, but there's other ways of being able to provide that assistance. And so I do believe that there needs to be accountability

30:55as well with adoptive parents and with state and county child welfare systems. and greater awareness, which is why I'm here trying to raise the issues. And I do hope that if this is an issue of post -adoption support and not having enough of it, or that their needs are so great, there are better ways of doing it than warehousing them in another country. And these warehousing facilities are sending them back without any

31:25skills and adulthood. Yes, yes. And from what you're seeing, the adults, the former adoptive families, they're not doing anything. No, what's sad is, is that they're told to have by the program and people affiliated with it allegedly told don't have contact with them. They're actually told, as I understand it, that these children are irredeemable, that they can attach to no one, that they liken them to some of the worst

31:56people in our history. And So they're told, you know, they, you know, to have no contact with them when they returned to the U .S. I spoke to one girl who is relocated to Hawaii. Why Hawaii? Because her family, when they brought her back to the U .S., they at least got her a ticket back to the U .S., wanted her the furthest point away from them. She had no connection to that state. And so they sent her there and said, figure it out. and she ended up getting trafficked before

32:26she got into a homeless shelter. Or as I said, they're landing at the closest port of entry, which is Florida, and getting traffic from there or homeless. And so I'm working with a lot of young people's just basic emergency needs, you know, clothing, shelter, trying to help them figure out an education. How do you even get a driver's license, which is... a little bit far down the road and they're just in survival mode at this point. So their adoptive parents

32:56are often cutting off health insurance, even though they could keep it on until 26 and at 18, they're just cutting them off. And these youth, there's a lot of need, not only physically, but from an emotional health perspective. And so that is also a significant issue. only learned of a few adoptive families who engaged. And what I hope is that if it's the adoptive parents not engaging, what about the extended family? They

33:27help step in and help this young person rather than keep them on the streets, because there was commitment there at one point. And what I've heard from the extended family, who ultimately did step up for a young person, that they had been told by the parents, don't do it. They're, you know, irredeemable, they're just bad, you know, you don't want to help them. And I hope that extended family might be able to see you beyond those things, particularly when they haven't seen a child for years, and maybe step up as well to help support a child. Because sometimes

33:59it's just can you give a cash card even just for food? And that's where I found that financially, I'm trying to assist just kids to survive. So are there any policy models? Are there? anything you've seen in other places that might do a better job of protecting these kids? I can't say that I have. I mean, obviously, there's a certain white savior complex and adoption here in the United States, particularly when it comes to inner country. I haven't seen any other models

34:34in terms of how can we improve this. However, I have a list of suggestions that I have made to policymakers of where I think we can change the law, ensure accountability. Can this fit into a trafficking statute because they are moving in our country? If we are so strict about ICPC work, then why isn't that applying as well to when kids are getting placed in residential care and even as adoptees in other states, let alone

35:06foreign countries. And then on top of that, they're using transporters, professional transporters who really just grab the kids in the middle of the night and take them to a foreign country. And there needs to be more oversight and licensing over them. They're a part of the problem or educational consultants. In a recent case that I was looking at, these educational consultants had never been to the program. They knew nothing about the program, but they were getting a kickback from the program for every kid that they referred. And I'm finding that the religious communities are also helping

35:37subsidize this and also referring kids, parents to these programs. And so I think on a professional level, there's more to be done with the people that are directly involved in these referrals and these placements. But also, as I said, there's more that could be done in ensuring accountability by the state and county and the adoptive parents. So so many systematic failures that we're seeing

36:07right there leading to this issue. If we have a listener listening right now, say we have of an adoptive parent listening and they're thinking, what can I do about this? What would you tell them? I think that there's some really incredible adoption and trauma informed therapists that understand the dynamics of adoption and understanding that kids when they become adolescents are going to be a little bit crazy anyway, given all those

36:38hormones and everything else. And, you know, is there a way of balancing what's happening in terms of professional assistance or interventions beyond sending them away. And certainly I'm aware of the really incredibly sad cases where their needs are so great that they have to reenter foster care because that's the only way that they could go to higher levels of care. And for a small population, that might be true, but for

37:08180 kids outside of the U .S., You know one example is just a child who is diagnosed autistic and they learned of it after they adopted her That's not a reason to send a child away. You wouldn't do that with a biological child and so I would hope that they would Look to credible and I emphasize credible because there are a few people out there who name themselves as as qualified that might not be and really look to qualified individuals

37:40who can treat everyone because it's not just the child. The dynamics of everyone needs to be examined. And education is really critical. So without compromising anyone's privacy, can you share a story or an insight from a survivor that can help underscore the urgency of this issue? There was one young man that I spoke to, let's call him Kevin and he was only six when he was adopted and he was straight out told that.

38:12Later that they weren't prepared for him and that they just didn't want him and so he ended up bouncing around these abusive placements from approximately age eight to eighteen and he and some many of them were in the US but as I said some of them may not be licensed and may have religious exemption so they escape oversight. a lot of kids are being placed in a particular facility in Missouri, where there have been a lot of issues in terms of oversight because of

38:42the religious exemptions. And they literally sleep in coffin beds. And I have pictures and video of this where, and it reminds me of what I think a slave hold would look like and slave ships where they have to, or a more where you have to put your feet in and slide in. And And this is where they sleep and adoptive parents know that. And why wouldn't you be concerned if you saw that is the care that and this is

39:14kind of going into what I would say are maybe some of the unqualified opinions out there about how to treat young or kids with. attachment issues by saying, well, deprive them of everything and then reward them with little things as you go on. And that includes food deprivation, which is incredibly significant. But one of the youth who had slept in those coffin beds had told me that there were kittens that were around. And so they took one of the kittens and they were

39:46able to push the plywood so all of them could play with the kitten as it was going between their coffin beds. And ultimately, obviously it was found because it was meowing, but that idea of just these young, he was 13 at the time, just wanting to care for something and the deprivation that happened with that. And he actually ran away and tried to get help from a neighbor and he was of color and he was met at the door with

40:16a shotgun. He was just transported by the police back to the program. And so oftentimes these facilities are in very rural areas where there may be ideas by the people, the neighbors and the officers that are there that something's happening. We need more, not only oversight and regulation over these programs, but just even awareness with neighbors that if you see that then then do more than just meet them at the

40:46door with a shotgun and where they get just replaced in the same abusive environment. And so that are some of the stories. And unfortunately, many of the stories that I have are just heartbreaking. And that's difficult to share. And I imagine there's a trigger warning that's going to be put on the very beginning of this because They're experiencing food deprivation and you know being

41:17placed in stress positions and be made to work out in the extreme heat up to eight hours or you know isolation up to three months where they have nothing to read nothing to look at and they're somehow supposed to work on themselves. And this is another heartbreaking story. All of the girls that I've interviewed from this particular facility overseas have told me about this young lady where they said that she was in isolation for so long,

41:50they forgot about her. They thought she had gone home. And so when she came out of isolation after 10 months, they literally were like, Ana, where have you been? That's heartbreaking. And that was due to her sexual identity and why they were keeping her that isolated. But the fact that all the girls have repeated the story to me of that, they literally forgot about her because she was in isolation for so long. And can you imagine the trauma to that young girl and what

42:23she went through? And where you can't look at anyone, you can't make eye contact with anyone, you can't speak to anyone, and you're in a room by yourself. Or if you even come out, then you're just separated from the rest of the group. And I wish I had happier stories. But recently, I had the one happy story where I was saying, after three years, she self -studied, got her GED. She's doing very, very well. She got her driver's license. But unfortunately, right now, those celebrations are few and far between. And I'm

42:54really working with individual kids, hoping that we can see more celebrations like that. Amazing work that you are doing because it's so heartbreaking, so appreciative that you're here sharing with us. Where can people learn more about you and your work and get involved? So absolutely, my website is called Themis Youth Law Advocacy, and I welcome donations. As I said, I started this nonprofit without funding. I am applying for grants, but I'm pretty close to exhausting

43:25my retirement. I've been using my 401k, not the smartest, and a family loan that's helped me. And so I'm thankful that I've been able to do it, but I do need assistance, particularly with the emergency needs with kids. And so I do hope that, and also I just want to develop a network around the country. And I encourage anyone to reach out to me because we need more therapists, more other parents who may want to step up for one of these young people. just house them in a hotel for one day. There's different ways of

43:55being able to contribute to help these young people. And I'm also on social media under my name, Don J. Post, ESQ, generally. And that's on Instagram, Substack, Facebook, even TikTok, which is... I honestly is very difficult for me to do, but I've entered that arena in Instagram. So you can really find me anywhere and follow the work and learn more about it because it's very nuanced. There's a lot going on, as I mentioned

44:26earlier, just this law that was passed in California addressing it. And, you know, also more news to come in the coming months as I'm working with people around these issues. Tom, thank you so much for sharing. We feel honored that you've shared this with us and really hold space for this huge issue and appreciate all you're doing. Thank you. Thank you for listening. But we want

45:00to give just a huge shout out to Dawn. And again, thank you for being on this episode of the Open Adoption Project. We encourage you, if you feel motivated to become part of this movement, to advocate for youth that might be in really challenging situations, to check out Dawn's webpage at femusyouthlawadvocacy .org. We've got a link to that in the episode notes. Also, Follow her on Instagram. We've got her Instagram handle there as well if you want

45:32to connect with her. We at the Open Adoption Project are striving to help adoptions be more ethical. Lanette and I want to do everything that we can to support ethical adoptions. And we're glad to share this episode even though it does contain a little bit heavier content. There are parts of the system that are broken and there are children who have unmet needs. And we hope that we can advocate for them, that

46:02these children who have very little or no say at all in the adoption process that ultimately are mistreated, we hope that never happens. And so again, thanks to Dawn for her advocacy, for helping raise awareness for this population. If you feel that you can be part of this support system, please don't hesitate to reach out to Don. Thank you so much for listening to this episode and we'll be back in your podcast feed

46:34in just a few weeks.

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