Book Club: All You Can Ever Know with Anna Lehnardt

0:00I've thought about with my own adoptive parents when we've had conversations about adoption. They have never not had their biological parents and they have never had to wonder what it's like to not know where you're from or to know your beginnings. And I think that is a huge barrier for adoptive parents to understand what it's like to be an adoptee and to know this is vital to me understanding who I am. you really should not have any right over this and should not have

0:31any claim to my story that I do not have. Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 124. We are The Nelsons, I'm Sean, and in this episode, Lynette has an interview with Anna Linehart. And in this episode, we are an observance of

1:04National Adoption Month, looking at different books that have been written about adoption. And we talk with members from the adoption community about their experience as they read it. So in today's episode, we will be considering All You Can Ever Know by Nicole Chung. and this is a book that's a powerful memoir about transracial adoption and identity and the search for belonging. So we bring on Anna as a transracial adoptee to share her thoughts. We'll go ahead and jump

1:35straight to that conversation. We are here on the podcast with Anna Lenard. Anna, we are so excited to have you back here. Thank you so much for joining us. Of course, I'm so glad that I get to be back. We're so happy to have you. We're also really excited to talk about an adoption book with you. It is a memoir. And do you want

2:08to tell us a little bit about the book that we're talking about today? Okay, we're talking about the book, All You Can Ever Know. It's written by Nicole Chung, and it's all about her experiencing, understanding her identity. learning about reunion, learning about her past and her history and how she really balances both the loss and the love that she's found through adoption. Yeah, I thought this was a really powerful adopting memoir because Nicole Chung, she really tries to explore her birth family's experience with the adoption and

2:39share that as well as her adoptive parents' journey and then of course the emphasis is really her journey as she tries to discover who she is and where she comes from. So what stood out to you about this book? What drew you in to want to talk about this book today? Honestly, the first thing that really stood out to me is that she is another Asian adoptee. I know that there are a lot of Asian adoptees out there. Hypothetically,

3:09there should be a lot statistically, but I don't hear a lot from them. And I don't hear a lot about them in research or in media. And so it was really inspiring for me to hear a book written by another Asian adoptee about her own experience and the specific unique challenges that an Asian adoptee has compared to other adoptees. So that's the first thing that really resonated with me. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like a really personal experience reading it as well. Yeah, it definitely was. So what kinds of emotions or thoughts did

3:42the book stir up for you as you were reading it? I think the main big emotions that it stirred up for me were a remembrance of loss, right? I think a lot of adoptees experienced loss of birth families, of culture, of people. It also stirred up just a desire to really find and reconnect with my family. And so I actually am in the process now. I am working with a nonprofit called the

4:14Nanchong Project and they helped me. They sent me a blood sample and I might be sending my blood sample to China to find my birth parents. And it really just sparked this desire to continue this process. And I wanted to find my birth parents my whole life, but I have felt a lot of urgency about it lately and I think reading this book really continued to help me feel that urgency and made me really think right even if it doesn't work out with my birth family like what if I have siblings or cousins that I really connect

4:45with and that I want to have that relationship with now instead of later yeah so it was like a life -changing book really yes yes Were there any particular themes or moments in the book that stood out as especially powerful for you? I think one of the really really powerful moments for me was learning about the history of her birth mother. She was abusive to her children growing up and Nicole really not wanting to have

5:16a relationship with her. I think that really stood out to me because I have this fantasy in my mind of what meeting my birth parents is gonna be like and who they're gonna be. and the way that they're going to treat me and the way they've always like longed for me or wanted to have me and love me but for Nicole like it really was the best situation for her to be placed for adoption and her mother wasn't someone that she wanted to emulate and she actually got a lot of anxiety um about knowing the characteristics of her mom

5:47so it's very like uh thought -provoking for me because i i really have had to think through What if that happens when I meet my birth parents? What if they are not who I thought they were? Or if they did do this or place me not on purpose because, you know, something happened, but if they place me with no regard for me, they didn't really want me as a child. I really had to think through that and how I would emotionally process that. Yeah, that was a heartbreaking part to

6:18read. talking about her mother and her struggles and the way that her siblings struggled in the home. And what ways do you think this memoir by Nicole Chung contributes to the broader understanding of adoption experiences? I think this memoir just really emphasizes that there can be a multitude of experiences with adoption. I think we're too often told the one -sided story that adoption was for the best, it was or it was the only thing

6:49that could happen, the birth parents always wanted the children, they always loved them, or that the birth parents didn't care, they didn't want them, and that the adoptive parents did so much and everyone should be grateful. And I think this book really challenges that narrative by saying there is more to the story and there can be more. Some of these things are true and some of them aren't and that's all okay and we can accept all of the story. Yeah. Oh, I love how you said that, just recognizing the nuance in

7:19adoption experiences. So Nicole Chung talked a lot about her experiences growing up in this book. What do you think about the role of origin stories in shaping our identities? I don't, okay, I have so many mixed feelings about this. Yeah. All first say. Growing up, I always told the story that my parents told to me. It was never really my story, like it was my story and it was about me, but I don't remember any of the events that happened. I wasn't, you know, conscious

7:52aware of that. And I also only really heard it from my birth or from my adoptive parents until I was probably 18, 19, when I really went back and looked at the documents and tried to understand what they were. Then in this past recent year, year and a half, when I've really tried to find my birth parents and learn more about me, I've learned more about Chinese adoption in general, how so many children were actually trafficked and how a lot of terrible things happened in China. And the reasons that we're told often

8:22were faked and were not actually the origin story that most adopted Chinese people think is their origin story. And so I feel like it has a big part and it played a big part in my childhood for me to really quickly give an explanation of why I'm different from my family. But at this point in my life, I feel like it just brings up more questions and it makes me really wonder about myself, who I was, who my grandparents

8:52were, what the circumstance was. And so I guess that still shapes me a lot because it makes me want to like change and look for things and really contemplate different answers and realities, but I also think it maybe provides more illusion than it does reality into an individual adoptee's life and their identity. I feel like the thing

9:24that just keeps coming back up for me is it's complicated is what it sounds like, right? Like there's just so much. Yeah. Yes, I'll just say that is my word. So how do you feel about the idea that adoption stories might sometimes be sanitized or oversimplified, maybe for adoptees comfort or maybe for adoptive parents comfort? I think it depends. Like mostly, it's really

9:57nuanced. I think if you have a very young child, I think you can do things at age -appropriate times. But I think at the point when it's for the adoptive parent's comfort versus the child's comfort, that's not okay. And it should always, in my opinion, I think adoptive children's opinions and views and feelings should always be number one in this situation. And if they're asking questions and they're really curious about what their story is and what's happening, then the

10:27adoptive parent has an obligation to tell their child what happened and the whole story. And I think this is something I've thought about with my own adoptive parents when we've had conversations about adoption. They have never not had their biological parents and they have never had to wonder what it's like to not know where you're from or to know your beginnings and I think that is a huge barrier for adoptive parents to understand

11:00what it's like to be an adoptee and to know this is vital to me understanding who I am. You really should not have any right over this and should not have any claim to my story that I do not have. Yeah, so well said. So On that note, how do you think this book challenges or complicates the common narratives that we hear in adoption? You talked about some of these, right? Like, you should be grateful or the lucky adoptee. Yeah, what do you think? Yeah, those two definitely.

11:30But I also think I feel like I hear two different things, either that birth parents really loved their children and they did and made the best choice for their children and that's all they could do and they placed their child. Or I hear that birth parents didn't want their child or wanted nothing to do with it and so they placed their child. I feel like this book does really well at saying both those were true. It was different for both parents, both of her birth parents. One birth parent knew it was the best thing for her so she wouldn't be abused. And the other

12:01birth parent said, I didn't want to but I was forced to by your father. And so I had to, you know? And I think that that shows the reality of even birth parents have different ideas. And in common, not common, but in modern day society, I think it's still a common theme that birth mothers and birth fathers have different opinions about what they want to happen, can have different opinions about what they want to happen with the child. And sometimes we don't hear both sides of those stories. And even today, I feel like

12:32we don't hear a lot from. birth fathers and what they think about adoption and about their children. Absolutely. Yeah. As you were talking, I feel like I've heard someone explain it as this hero or villain dichotomy, right? Where we hear about birth parents either as heroes or villains, but I love how you brought that up that it can be both and it can be so nuanced. Yeah. So what stood out to you about how this book explored the emotional complexity of adoption with love

13:04and loss and all of that nuance that we've been talking about. I feel like one of my favorite things about this book was that they brought in more characters than just the adoptee, the adoptive parents, and the birth parents. Like I love that they brought in siblings. They brought it relatives, she brought in her children, she brought in her cousins, like I just felt like this was so much more than just like a one narrative story, which I think is great. But I feel like

13:34it really, um, it really emphasized, like, the influence that adoption has in multiple people's lives. It's not just the adoptee. It's not just the adoptive parents and birth parents. Adoption impacts everyone. So I would say even my aunts and my uncles and my own like my aunts, my uncles, my cousins, my grandparents, anyone that I've lived in here, like all of these people now have had experience with adoption and I think it's really powerful to include everyone's experience

14:05with adoption and I think she does particularly well about sharing that and she shares from her husband's perspective what that experience was like for him and how he supported her. And I've definitely had to come through my own journey with my husband talking about what it's like to be adopted for me, what it means to him, how we can work through any of those complexities together. And I think that's really important. Yeah. Yeah, I love how you said that. And I think that the way that Nicole Chung brings in what

14:38Michael Grand, Dr. Michael Grand, would call the adoption constellation, right? Not just the triad, but the constellation. I think that that really supports what we've been talking about, about how this is a complex and nuanced experience and it shows how there's so much influence and complexity and how you said adoption influences everyone. I think that her really illustrating that in her memoir was so powerful. Yeah, I agree.

15:09It's it was really, really well written. Yeah. Yeah, so you talked already about how this memoir inspired you to start searching for your birth family and it sounds like that's something you already had planned on doing but it might have helped maybe move things along there. How did you interpret the family dynamics and communication between adoptive family and birth family and all you can ever know in Nicole Chung's experience? The first thing that I noticed was when Nicole

15:39was describing that she wanted to find her birth family. She mentioned a couple times that she was going to hide it under the guise of just wanting to find her medical records. And that stood out to me because I felt the same way. I think a lot of adoptees feel like they don't want to make their adoptive parents feel like they are second to or that they're going to replace them once they find their birth parents. I'm not speaking for all cases. Some cases, that's

16:10probably true. But in other cases, right? Adopted parents don't want to feel like they're being replaced. And so adoptive children will often walk around it or not tell the whole truth about what they're doing. And I thought that was really profound because I've experienced it in my own life. And I think I've had to go through a journey with my own family. We're talking about adoption. It's probably like two years ago when I really started talking about adoption with my parents.

16:41It was really difficult. We would have these conversations about race and adoption and being different. And I felt like they really didn't understand me. And so we just stopped talking about it for a while because they couldn't really take it. I couldn't really take it. And it was just not healthy. And I think she reflected that same thing in her conversation with her parents. She didn't want them to feel sad. You could tell that they were like, this is the adoptive parents said, this is only for medical records, right? Like this is too much for you. You shouldn't

17:11do this, et cetera, et cetera. But really beautifully, I think for me and for her family, at the end of the book is that people change and that they learn. And for my adoptive parents, like, they have come and I have come so far and so even very recently we had a very big conversation again about adoption and they were much more open and much more willing to see both sides and now they're big advocates and they're willing

17:42to like have me and not willing they're excited for me to meet my birth parents and they know that they're not being replaced that they're not a second class that they're not as loved that I'm not really grateful for all the good and the hard things that happened because I was adopted. But I also think with her birth family, I thought it was really interesting that she came to realize, hey, maybe I wasn't really meant to be raised in this family. It would have been hard for me to live up to my birth father's standard,

18:12but she can still have a good relationship with him now. And we touched on Nicole's relationship with her mother and how difficult that was and how she didn't really continue to foster that relationship. And I think that's normal. And I think that would have happened. That can happen with adoptive parents or birth family. It doesn't really matter. Not that it doesn't matter, but it could happen with either either. There is no like one parental group is better than the other. I was really most surprised, though, by

18:42hearing that her adoptive parents hid the letter that her birth mother had written. that actually makes me really sad that that happened. And I think that that was a moment where the adoptive parents were just covering for themselves rather than thinking of the needs of their child first. Absolutely. Yeah, that was a heartbreaking part when she discovered the letter and they had been hidden from her. So you've been talking about

19:14basically communication right between adoptive parents and adoptees and how adoptive parents we've seen this often like even on this podcast we've talked with adoptees who have shared they wait until their adoptive parents pass away to begin their search but then their birth family is getting older too and they might not have as much time to connect with them but all because they want to respect adoptive parents and not like make them feel bad And I think that we're moving in a better direction as a society and

19:45as an adoption community where this is becoming less common. But do you have any tips or thoughts on how adoptive parents might be able to better listen or make it safe for adoptees to share whatever they're feeling, whatever they're needing so that it's not one of these big challenges that impedes relationships and challenges families? Yeah, I think if I was talking to adoptive parents, The advice I give is number one, if your child brings us up and it's the first time, take a

20:15moment for yourself. Like that's big news. I can definitely be sure that that would be really hard to hear. And I get that because it feels like your adoptive child is challenging you as a parent and maybe questioning your parenting skills. And that's totally understandable to feel that way. But I think also one of my professors that I really love said this to me. At some point I think it's really important to realize that these feelings that your adoptive child is sharing

20:48and this desire, it's not about you at all. And it is about the child just wanting to have more people in their life that love them. And I think when adoptive parents look at it from that perspective, it's like, why wouldn't I want more people to love my child? This would be really great and beneficial. Of course, keeping your child safe is really important. But I think really taking a step back, knowing that your feelings are valid, but also relooking at it and thinking, is this

21:20more about me? Is this more about them? And it really should not be about you. And you should be able to, you should not, I guess I shouldn't say should, but it would be beneficial to take yourself out of the situation and to just focus on what their needs are. Yeah, I love that so much. Thank you. And I love your thoughts about looking through a lens more of, I want to give my child more love. How would that have changed Nicole Chung's experience too? If her adoptive parents have been thinking through a lens of

21:51love and what's best for their child, that letter experience probably wouldn't have happened that way, right? And so how can we as an adoption community try to better focus? all of our actions and our intentions on helping children, helping adoptees. I love that. Thank you. Yeah, of course. They should be number one in my very humble opinion. But it's true. And we've talked about this before on the podcast about how adoptees are the only ones in the adoption triad, at least who have

22:22no choice in the adoption and what happens to them. And We talk and hear all the time about how adoption is about the child, but we need to make sure that we're living up to that and that our actions are matching that goal and that mantra. Yeah, so I can talk about race, culture and belonging a little bit now. So Nicole wrote about growing up as a Korean adoptee, a Korean American adoptee in a white family and community. So I'm wondering how You saw this book's addressing

22:56those challenges with the intersection of race and adoption. I think that the book addresses really well the intersection of race and adoption. I think that's always really challenging, especially for an Asian adoptee. Specifically, Asian adoptees are often seen as race fluid. And so adoptive parents will often look at their child and say, oh, like they're They're just going to fit in. They look normal. They seem normal. There's nothing

23:26really outstanding about them. But as a child experiencing it, as an uphill experience, there is a lot of race in the experience. I know as a child, for me, I experienced people pulling their eyes back, making weird comments. I know as an adult, people told me comments related to COVID. I was the bad soup, or asking me where I came from, telling me how good my English is, et cetera, et cetera. And I just think that people don't get that unless you are in the middle of

23:56both. And I think they do love showing how she really grew up white, culturally white, which is not a bad thing. That's a good thing. but it sometimes didn't fit with what people viewed her as and that causes a lot of contention and a lot of confusion and a lot of othering and isolation. Two other books I feel like really did this particularly well explain the challenges of this. One book is called Somewhere Sisters by Erika. She's amazing. We've actually had her

24:30on the podcast. She talked about that book. It's such awesome. That's a great book. And then the second one that just came out in May 2025. It's called Daughters of the Bamboo Grove. That's an incredible novel written by a journalist about sorry, let me find the author, but it's about two girls who are twins. And one grows up in China and one grows up in America and the differences that they experience and I think they do really well, not only talking about the history of adoption in China, but also the challenges that they grow

25:02up with being Asian and being in the United States. So the author of that one is Barbara. All right, thank you. I will look that one up. Hey, yeah, thank you. So what are your thoughts on how this memoir handles cultural disconnection and the search for belonging? I. I think that they handle it really carefully. I think she's able to talk

25:32about it in such a nuanced way and such a specific way that really helps the reader, me and other people, I think, understand that there's so much to culture that an adoptee loses, but also that an adoptee goes disconnected from. For example, she said learning Korean has always been a goal of hers and a dream of hers, but she never really felt comfortable doing it. And she felt weird being in classes, learning Korean with other

26:03people who like already were pretty much fluent. And she didn't start until her daughter told her, I want to learn Korean, I'm Korean, like help me learn. And I think that's so true to what maybe a lot of adoptees feel like. It's like we want to learn about our culture. We want to learn and be integrated. But do we have a right? Like I'll just say for me, so I've like studied Mandarin Chinese for probably 10 years, maybe longer. I like finished a minor at a university

26:34studying Mandarin, like I'm technically advanced level Mandarin, but I've never felt confident in my Mandarin ability. And when I speak with people, I try to speak as little as possible because I don't want to be judged for my ability. The couple times that I have spoken Mandarin with people, I often am asked, am I Japanese or am I Korean? Because I know my Mandarin is not native, even though I look like I should be Asian. So I'm always, even in my own, my own, like, quote, culture and community, I'm still

27:05seen as different. And so it almost feels like when I speak Mandarin, and when I learn more about a culture, it feels like I'm appropriating it, even though it is my own culture. Oh, that was so well said. Thank you, Anna. That's a huge challenge. That sounds really hard. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you think this book might resonate differently for transracial adoptees versus maybe someone who is the same race as their adopted family? I think that this is really unique for

27:38transracial adoptees, one, because it is transracial adoptee. And two, because they just have different experiences. We have different conversations with our families than someone of the same race. Not saying that their experiences aren't valid or real, but I think there is just this next level of feeling different, feeling isolated, feeling misunderstood, and not having a support system of someone there who can help you figure out your race and figure out how you fit in in society. I read this in a couple of books, but

28:10I feel like it's very relevant here. Growing up, I was protected by my white family and my siblings whiteness, if that makes sense, like their white privilege. But as I grew up, I was seen from people and strangers as an Asian person, not as a white person. And so like my white bubble shield that was around me no longer protects me in certain circumstances, actually in all circumstances. And so I had to reorient myself

28:41and rediscover who I was, what it means to be Asian. And I was almost forced into it because that's the only way people looked at me first. They didn't see me for my personality or my traits or whatever. They automatically went to me being Asian. And so I had to spend a long time really understanding what that meant to me, who I am as an Asian. And it's still, as you can tell, very complicated for me. And I don't always feel super secure in that identity. And so I think this book really hits differently because she,

29:12Nicole Chung, gets it as someone who has felt different and not fully connected to race and identity, but somewhat there. Yeah, thank you so much. So I'm wondering, did this book open up any conversations for you, maybe public discourse or within your family, that were harder to broach before you had read it? I could probably say the desire to look for my birth parents has been

29:43really interesting. Like I said, my parents are very supportive now. They know that it is partly me just wanting to find people who can love me more. I also want to learn more about my medical industry. But I think the biggest concern From my side is I don't want my parents to be gone or to be dead by the time I find them my birth parents Yeah, but for my adoptive parents, they have a lot of concerns about privacy with me

30:14sending information about myself and the adoption to China But because China has not really specified what they're gonna do with the data or my DNA that can be really scary. And for my parents, right, that's their personal information, too. And so it's been really interesting, me having the strong desire to find them, and especially spurred by this book, this urgency to really look for them and my parents reluctance to have like to hand to give me papers that could help

30:44me find them for their security and safety. And I think both are very valid. But from my side, it feels like they're inhibiting me from something that should always be mine and it's my right to have. But from their point of view, it's all of our information and they have a right to protection for it. And so that's been a really interesting question and discussion that we've had recently. Yeah. Oh, that's complicated. Well, I'm so happy for you that support has grown there. And so

31:17with your search, I will definitely. be sending you all of the good vibes. Thank you. So if you could say something to Nicole Chung after reading this book, what would you tell her or what would you ask her if whatever comes to mind? I think I could say anything to her. I would probably just say thank you. Honestly, I really appreciate

31:49having more voices out there. I have only recently started advocating for adoption in my own little social circle and it's hard and there's a lot of backlash and there's a lot of people telling you that your opinions don't matter and that you should be grateful and that you don't know anything. And so I get it. And I really just am grateful that she was willing to share her opinion and share her story and talk about the

32:20complexity of both parts and how even though some of these relationships weren't a fairy tale ending that she was looking for, they're still real and they're still happening. And I think that's so essential for everyone to hear. So a lot of gratitude. Yeah, thank you. And then one more question as we wrap up. What do you hope readers will take away from this memoir? I think the number one thing that I think readers should take away from this memoir is that adoption

32:52is complicated. And I think we've said that a lot and I think you're a huge advocate of that. But I don't think it can be stressed enough. And I also think it's real important that readers should take away that everyone in the constellation is going to have a different experience with adoption. And those are all valid experiences. And the adoptee's experience, I think, should be at the center of everything. And sometimes

33:24we need to put our own feelings aside so that we can listen to the people who are most impacted by this decision. Absolutely. Well, Anna, that was so well said. I've so enjoyed. discussing this book with you and I'm so thankful for you. Thank you. Of course, thank you so much. It's such an honor to be talking and sharing my thoughts on adoption. Oh, I so appreciate you. If any of our listeners want to connect with you, how can they do that? They can email me. I have an

33:56email. It's adoptionliterate at gmail .com. Awesome. Thank you so much. Alright, well we want to just give a huge shout out to Anna. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experience. We know a lot of what you shared is vulnerable and we really appreciate that as a community. We're grateful for each of you who are listeners to

34:27the podcast and hope that you found some value in listening to this conversation. We'll have another book club episode coming up in the next few days.

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