Ep 70
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Lanette
Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 70 where the Nelsons. I’m Lanette,
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Shaun
And I'm Shaun. In today's episode, we continue our discussion of adoption in the media, and particularly we look at the movie Instant Family.
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Lanette
Leading this discussion. We have Alisha and Shane back on the podcast. They were in a previous episode talking about their experience as foster parents, and now they're leading a discussion about the themes in the movie Instant Family and answering questions from listeners regarding what foster care looks like and what some of those realities and expectations are.
00;00;38;13 - 00;00;50;16
Shaun
During the episode, you'll hear a couple audio clips from the movie. We recommend that you watch the movie and you'll understand a lot more, but I think you'll get a sense for the scenes as you listen to them.
00;00;51;03 - 00;01;15;05
Lanette
Yeah, so we think it's a really helpful episode. It's an interesting discussion for sure. Something I thought was kind of funny was that one of my very favorite people that we follow on Instagram is a foster parent named Laura, and she is at foster parenting. And she posted I think it was the day after we had our discussion where she just talked about how she personally really doesn't like this movie and doesn't feel like she connects well with it.
00;01;15;15 - 00;01;34;17
Lanette
Whereas I've also talked to many other foster parents who feel like it really just feels so true to life and true to their experiences. So of course there's going to be a lot of different experiences, a lot of different opinions on this movie. So this is only a snippet of some opinions, but we hope it's really helpful for you and enjoyable to listen to.
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Shaun
All right. Well, we'll jump to that conversation now. We're going to get started, but we thought before we jumped in that we would do some brief introductions. Shane and Alisha, do you want to just introduce yourselves briefly?
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Shane
Yeah. Alisha and I, we're the Gallaghers. We live in the Bay Area and we have been doing foster care since about 2020. I'm an engineer here in the Bay Area, so yeah, that's, that's the really short version, which is going to talk a little bit more about how our fostering situation.
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Alisha
Yeah, I'm Alicia. We have three kids with us right now. Two of them we had fostered with our first placement the first time and then they recently came back into care with their younger sister and we had a chance to welcome them back into our home. So I quit. I recently quit my full-time marketing job so I could be a full-time foster parent and it gives me more time to take care of them and then do things like this to talk with all of you.
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Alisha
So we're excited to talk about foster care and really about the movie and the family, too. It's one of our favorites.
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Lanette
And thank you guys so much. Something I really love about when you two talk about foster care is that you're so compassionate toward the biological parents and the challenging situations that they're in. I love that you have set this amazing example of having–it's not an open adoption, I know, but like is really trusting open, trusting relationship with the first family. I'm not sure what the best vernacular is for it.
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Lanette
I really admire that and love it.
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Shaun
Yeah.
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Alisha
Thank you.
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Lanette
For reference, Shane and Alisha were featured in episode 44 of our podcast, and it's a fantastic episode for anyone, I think, especially anyone considering becoming a foster parent. Actually, Shaun’s sister, when she listened to that episode, called us right after and said, I really want to foster now, that was an incredible episode. She said it just really struck this amazing balance for her being real and genuine, but also really pulling at her heart and saying, Hey, how can I help these kids too?
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Shaun
And yeah, she's hot and she's like, I got home and I told my husband, we're going to be foster parents. And his first reaction was like, What? Like, where is this coming from? But what you shared with us in that episode was really impactful. In fact, Lanette and I have been looking into actually fostering in the future as well, largely because of some of the experiences that we've had in English.
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Shaun
Shane, Alicia. So.
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Lanette
Yes, absolutely. Also, just always something to keep in mind when we're talking about foster care. Reunification is the goal in foster care, right? It doesn't always happen. There's definitely situations where Foster to adopt is the better option, but reunification is the goal. And so just remembering that frame of reference for our discussion because it is different from other areas of the adoption community.
00;04;32;15 - 00;04;52;07
Shaun
Now, we talked a lot about adoption, and while some foster situations due to adoption, it's not, it's not purpose and the overall goal. And so that does differ a little bit from a lot of the conversation we normally have on the podcast. But there's a lot that carries over and that that we can benefit from as we learn.
00;04;52;20 - 00;05;16;09
Lanette
Yeah. All right. So we're going to really hand the reins over to Shane, Alicia, but we're going to show four different clips from the movie throughout our discussion and talk about a few questions that have been submitted by our listeners. And Shane only will just share some of their perspectives and experiences as well. And you'll be, as we said, please feel free to share and comment in the chat or raise your hand.
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Lanette
Would love to have more of a dialogue.
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Shaun
And so I'm not sure. Shannon Alicia, if you want to watch the clip first, if you want to lead discussion first, so we'll just turn it to you and we'll kind of follow your lead.
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Alisha
Okay, sounds good. I guess. First off, Tori and Allie, have you seen Instant Family before? Have you watched the movie? Okay. Okay. That's just good to know based on, like, how much detail we should go into. But the backdrop is that Pete and we want to start their family. They want to adopt, but then they get introduced to foster care and are introduced to a teenager, Lizzie And then after that, they learn that Lizzie has two siblings.
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Alisha
And so they go from thinking they would just foster, do foster to adopt for one. And then all of a sudden it's three of them. And so this clip is that meeting for the first time. So maybe we can just watch that and then discuss it.
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Speaker 5
Okay. Hey, how's it going? Good. Go. Really good. Pete. Nellie. Yeah, Yeah, we know.
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Speaker 6
Come on in.
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Speaker 6
Good luck with that one. She thinks she's better than everybody.
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Speaker 5
Yeah, The other dudes around out back. We'll be in the shop. Hey.
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Speaker 6
Hey, hey, hey. How are you? This is Waggoner.
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Speaker 5
Ellie, Ellie and Pete. You just call us.
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Speaker 6
Sorry about them. Oh, please.
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Speaker 5
Oh, it just seems a little.
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Speaker 6
Like brother and sister. I'm down with that crap. We are not friggin related.
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Speaker 5
Hurricane related.
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Speaker 6
I'm really going to miss them. That is, if you know.
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Speaker 5
You made such a good impression on me. We met you. We wanted to kind of get to know you a little bit more. Meet your brother and sister.
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Speaker 6
Sister? Yeah. They're actually, like, right outside of you guys. When I was young, it was okay. One lira. I want you guys to meet Pete and Allie. Hi, you guys. Are we going to go stay at your house now? Well, you know what? We. We met your sister, and she's so awesome. So tell us about you guys when you play restaurant with me.
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Speaker 6
Yeah, I would love to. Where's your restaurant? Right over there. And what's your name? Pinions. Potato chips. Oh, I love potato chips. Potato chips are my favorite. Oh, nice one. Can we be the clippers?
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Speaker 5
Oh, I'm more of a Lakers fan.
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Speaker 6
Oh, well, sorry.
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Speaker 5
No, no, you don't have to say sorry. That's okay. We can be the Clippers. All right, Well, okay, I'm going to shoot you. Cast the boards. Okay? Sure.
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Speaker 6
Oh, no. Oh, shoot. You do a purpose. What do you mean? Because I like the Clippers.
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Speaker 5
I think the Clippers are awesome.
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Speaker 6
Love the Clippers. Yeah. You kidding.
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Speaker 5
Me? So smart to get rid of Blake Griffin. I mean, that was a great trade for them.
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Speaker 6
First with the Clippers. I can't get enough of them. They're. They're amazing. Okay, well, can we play hide and seek?
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Speaker 5
Are you sure you lost a lot of blood?
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Speaker 6
I love hide and seek, but just us. No girls. Oh, sure. It's not that progressive, but no problem. Sure, Leader should we go play restaurants? Yeah, you're it. I'll hide you count. Okay.
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Speaker 5
You sure you're.
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Speaker 6
Okay? Yeah. Go. Go. And Calvary, come to 20. You better not embarrass me at the restaurant. Potato chips bad today. Oh, girl. Bad, bad, bad. Going to fuck your little bean? Oh, I don't. You know what? She picks up that stuff off the TV.
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Speaker 5
Yeah.
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Speaker 6
Oh, don't give me the look unless I call her bad names like that. Don't tell me how to treat my kid. You think you’re better than me, huh?
00;09;11;13 - 00;09;40;02
Alisha
You guys kind of got the gist of it that they show up. The kids have been living at a previous foster home, and then they're meeting them for the first time, and then one gets hit the nose of the basketball, he starts bleeding. It's just a lot of tension that I actually think is accurate based on our experience so far that with us, with our experience, we weren't necessarily going into it thinking adoption.
00;09;40;02 - 00;10;04;27
Alisha
The kids were in an emergency situation and came to live with us. But there still is at the beginning when they show a little bit of hesitancy and, you know, trying to figure out like, are do you feel safe with me? What are things that I can do to help you feel comfortable? It's unfamiliar, a little bit awkward, and they're really careful to not over promise when they said, are we going to come live with you?
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Alisha
Now they're they're backpedaling a little bit, trying to set expectations because if it does get uncomfortable, they don't want the kids to be heartbroken. They're trying to set that expectation at the beginning. So it is it feels a little bit like you're babysitting for a little while until you really get those relationships established.
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Shane
Go into that. The question, what do you call people in foster care and how do you figure that out? Um, we have it totally figured that out. Are ourselves like there? There is a lot of that back and forth at the beginning. I know after our first placement we had a few short term placements and like respite where we were just helping another foster parent out for a weekend and we thought, okay, let's try just having them call us and this is in, this is Mr. Gallagher.
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Shane
Mr. and Mrs.. Ms.. Ms.. ALISHA, Mr.. Shade. And yeah, it I don't know it. I think it's kind of up to everybody, like the culture you want to have in your home. I don't know if I felt the preference one or another, but then, you know, it definitely changes and morphs throughout the relationship. I know a lot of I know a lot of times and it's happened with the kids in our home that they actually called us mommy and daddy in public before they ever said that at home.
00;11;39;08 - 00;11;56;25
Shane
And I think it was maybe to give them more like normalcy, like, you know, when they're around their friends or something, they don't want to look or feel weird. And so they might feel comfortable calling us mom and dad public, but they're not going to do that at home, which is kind of interesting.
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Shaun
One follow-up question, and I imagine you've had some connections with other foster parents, so you shared a little bit about your personal experience, about how you call people or what you call people. Any other things that you've heard of from other foster parents as far as like maybe Pro Tips or things to avoid?
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Alisha
I think that the biggest piece of advice that we hear is to see what the child is comfortable with. You can introduce yourself by your first name if you're okay with them calling you by their first name. I know that in some communities it's a sign of respect to an adult to say Mr. or Ms.. And so you kind of can ask them what they want to call you.
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Alisha
And really, I think that's been the I'm just letting the child lead it because you don't want to force mommy and daddy into their vocabulary. That's not something that they're ready with ready for. And so letting the child lead, that is been like the most consistent piece of advice that we've heard from other people.
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Shaun
And I had another question, maybe not particularly related to the listener's question about what we call people. But as you listen to or watch that clip, do and maybe specific other thoughts or feelings resonate with what you see? And again, how could those potentially considering foster care or foster to adopt, learn or relate from your experience?
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Alisha
Yeah, Tori just sent me a question asking, is this thing typical or not like going to the existing foster home and picking up the children, or is that usually in a neutral location? I would say in our experience it's always been a neutral location when it's a foster to adopt, it might be a little bit different because it's not emergency removal.
00;13;57;16 - 00;14;37;08
Alisha
It's more like you're trying to set that up, you're trying to meet them where they are. If it's a good fit, then move them instead of going to one, place it not working out, and then going back. So I think it would depend on what the goal is in the end. But other things that we have noticed in this, you know, when when they are going to that environment, although we haven't experienced that with going to another foster home to engage with the kids, we have seen that in going to their biological families homes, sometimes they, you know, the way that they are talking to the kids, you're a little bit uncomfortable with it, but
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Alisha
you can't really stop it. You you're kind of there to observe and see if you're in a situation to safely divert away from talking negatively to the children or you hear the children say negative things about themselves, language that they've picked up. And so it's a lot can be really overwhelming at the beginning because they're coming from a completely different situation than you.
00;15;01;08 - 00;15;15;04
Alisha
So I think you get a sense of that when you're watching Pete and Ellie, like they're a little bit anxious. You kind of get that anxious energy because I think it can be overwhelming to see and be in that environment for the first time.
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Shaun
Really Good. And then maybe one more question that I have in this maybe will come up several times. But as we do this adoption in the media series, one of the maybe critical questions we ask is how, how true to life is this representation? So how would you answer that as far as maybe some of the feelings or emotions held on both sides?
00;15;39;14 - 00;15;45;15
Shaun
Do you think this is an accurate representation or is it overdramatic, overdramatize it as Hollywood?
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Shane
So my my feeling is that it and I think you can kind of see this in the movie that there are there are parts in the movie that feel a little bit clunky and and the converse that the dialog is a little bit weird. I feel like the interactions with the adults, they're like trying to get information out there.
00;16;05;10 - 00;16;26;12
Shane
And so it's I don't know, like the like the support group scenes. We've never really had an experience like that and kind of like the way they, they sprung it on them and the support group that like, oh, the kids are actually going to be going home, like that would never happen, like in a public setting like that.
00;16;27;16 - 00;16;54;26
Shane
But I think that they like nailed all the interactions with the kids. Like there's so many things in there that's like, Wow, we've had that exact experience and things might be a little bit embellished, but not that not that embellished. Actually, it it can be it can be that like down to the little interactions of like what we do, we need to give them a kiss goodnight and, and then saying, say okay, well we gave them one.
00;16;54;26 - 00;17;11;20
Shane
Do we need to go give Lizzie a hug? And she's like, No, I don't like all that stuff. I feel like it's very felt very familiar, very authentic. And yeah, thank you.
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Shaun
That's great.
00;17;12;23 - 00;17;27;05
Lanette
So foster care, it can be super intimidating. And this is a scene about the first initial meeting when everyone's talking about what foster care looks like and the social workers say some things that might kind of scare off some people.
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Shaun
Yeah, any I mean, as we are about to listen to this, anything shown early so you feel like we should be thinking about or maybe on our minds as we listen to this clip.
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Alisha
I would just look at the different parties that are in this scene and the way that they are reacting, whether spoken or not.
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Shaun
Okay, great.
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Speaker 6
It is not going to be easy, folks. These kids will test your will, put a strain on your relationship and push buttons you didn't even know you had. I can tell by looking at you that not all y'all are going to make it. I actually think this group has got the grit to face some unpleasant. You guys heading out?
00;18;14;01 - 00;18;20;22
Speaker 6
Okay, Well, thank you. Bye bye. Boy, that one's on me. It absolutely is. And you know, we've gone over this with her.
00;18;21;09 - 00;18;33;12
Lanette
So we had someone ask, Did you experience a honeymoon period after foster kids came into your home and then coming out of that honeymoon period? That's super hard in the movie. It wasn't like that for you. Any advice for getting through that?
00;18;34;16 - 00;19;15;16
Shane
I would say we absolutely did the first time around. I remember that first few days it was a pretty short period, but the first few days everything just seemed fun and happy and they were very well-behaved. And then I just I don't know if it was you know what you know what it was, but then it just kind of devolved into a nightmare, kind of like in the movie, you know, that the sleeping habits and the behavior and the screaming and misbehavior, yeah, it was there.
00;19;15;22 - 00;19;52;23
Shane
It definitely wore off. And then it gets better and then this with it. I think our situation is pretty unique that they went home for a year. And now that they're back with us again and and it definitely has not been as extreme, but I think we definitely went through the same motions that the first few weeks. You know, it was fun that they were they were excited to be back with Shane and Alisha and I think what it said in that, oh, we're not going home right away.
00;19;53;18 - 00;20;10;03
Shane
We definitely saw the regression in their in their behavior and everything, but they also got through that stage a lot faster too, than last time. So yeah, that's there's definitely a honeymoon period.
00;20;11;08 - 00;20;38;13
Alisha
And really, I think the the best way that we seem to get through those, those hard times is to be consistent as a parent, have those routines and do what you say you're going to do, whether it's you promise the reward, follow through on that, or if you say that there are consequences to certain actions, follow through on that.
00;20;38;13 - 00;20;56;22
Alisha
Because I think especially when the kids don't know you, they have no reason to trust a stranger. They're in a house. I mean, I think of the times that I would go over to a friend's house just for the night and even that after a little while, you kind of just want to get back home because you know where your toys are.
00;20;56;22 - 00;21;20;22
Alisha
You know what the routine is. Even going over to grandma and Grandpa house would feel a little bit like that. So imagine being traumatically separated and then put into a stranger's home. They don't really have any reason to believe you or trust you until you show that they can believe you and trust you. So it takes time for them to see that you'll be consistent.
00;21;20;22 - 00;21;46;18
Alisha
You'll do what you say you will do and you'll connect with them. And then after a while, they start to, I think, have a more secure attachment because they believe you and they see that you love them through your actions. There's not enough comfort in the world that can really build that hold for them, but that consistency will provide that structure so then they can trust you and feel safe.
00;21;46;18 - 00;22;20;29
Shane
And the other advice that I feel like I'll probably end up giving a dozen times throughout this is that you have to lower your expectations that these these kids are not going to be well-adjusted like, you know, your own kids that you've raised from birth in a safe and healthy environment or your neighbors kids or your nieces and nephews, like they're coming with trauma.
00;22;20;29 - 00;22;55;05
Shane
And that is going to come out in behavior and as I in their actions and their fears that they're their triggers. And it's it just comes with it just comes with it. And you just have to be ready to say you have to be ready to lower your expectations on how fast they're going to adjust and how well they're going to meet those expectations that you may have for other kids.
00;22;56;08 - 00;23;18;06
Alisha
And Shane, she says that he gives that advice a lot. He gives that advice to me a lot. I'll get frustrated about something because I will have thought we've seen progress in this and now, you know, this thing has happened and now we're regressing. And so Shane will he'll just look at me and say, you need to lower your expectations all the way to the floor.
00;23;18;07 - 00;23;40;04
Alisha
Like you'll just use that hand motion and just, just you have to take the, the, the expressions of, of trauma as they come and just lower it all the way sometimes. Obviously you can't do it all the time. They do structure, but there are days when you just have to let go of a lot of that and you just you learn how to do that with practice.
00;23;40;04 - 00;23;50;07
Alisha
There's not that silver bullet that will tell you when to lean on structure and when to go into compassion and you figure out a way to blend all of that together.
00;23;52;05 - 00;24;14;00
Shaun
In that challenge. It sounds like you are a great companionship and helping with that, but what other support do you feel like you have maybe in support groups or in other education? Have you felt like you've had to deal with some of that challenge?
00;24;14;00 - 00;24;48;16
Shane
So that's that's the other thing to remember is that you're not alone. That the kids will have a caseworker that you can talk to. They will be advocating for them and giving them resources that they need, like a therapist or, you know, supplies or whatever resource they need. And then you as a foster parent will also have a caseworker who's advocating for you.
00;24;49;00 - 00;25;20;23
Shane
They're going to help you with getting respite workers so that you can have, you know, if you need a weekend away from it all or even just a night away from it. And they will also be advocating for the kids and giving them the resources that they need. And unfortunately, it does take on advocating for yourself to utilize those things.
00;25;21;08 - 00;25;41;08
Shane
They're they're busy. And so you have to make noise to access that. But those resources are there. You just use and you make sure that you're asking for them from your caseworkers and that and then you'll start to realize you have a whole team of people to help.
00;25;41;08 - 00;26;02;05
Shaun
That's wonderful. Thank you. So in this clip, we have this huge group of people who are taking introductory classes to being a foster parent and just laying right out flat. This is going to be really hard. It's going to test you. It's going to test your marriage and patients. And and from what you've shared, that sounds that sounds really accurate.
00;26;02;21 - 00;26;13;24
Shaun
I'm wondering if anybody else, I guess wise here in the Zoom Call has any follow up questions as far as challenges go for Shane and Alisha? Before we move on.
00;26;13;24 - 00;26;15;08
Lanette
I guess, is there anything.
00;26;16;09 - 00;26;17;00
Speaker 6
I don't know.
00;26;17;00 - 00;26;28;19
Lanette
What's right Right is like hurtful that people have maybe said or done that like it's not necessary, like, I just feel like I really want to make sure I never say anything that's, like, hurtful and.
00;26;29;12 - 00;26;29;24
Speaker 6
In any.
00;26;29;24 - 00;27;11;28
Alisha
Way. Yeah, that one is hard because foster care is not a well understood trauma. There's like a Oh, I've been hearing terms like ambiguous or disenfranchized grief where it's not widely understood by society. And so it's not always easy to lend support to the kids unless they have specific training or lend support to the parents. So the really good question, I think that when there's something that we hear a lot and we know that it's not intended harmfully, but we can see it being taken that way is when people say things like, you know, the kids are so lucky to have you.
00;27;13;04 - 00;27;33;25
Alisha
I understand where that sentiment is coming from because in a lot of ways they there is a lot of gratitude that they can be in a safe place now. But I think with older kids, they probably, if they're within earshot of hearing that, they might not feel like that. They're like, what do you like? What about my situation is lucky.
00;27;33;25 - 00;28;06;16
Alisha
Exactly. So I think that when offering support to and to foster parents that like encouraging and validating what what they're doing and their efforts and just like you're strong, you can do this. I'm sure this is hard. And then being consistent and showing up and just stepping in and offering solutions or help or food or clothes or toys like those actions will go a long way to establish that relationship.
00;28;06;16 - 00;28;20;05
Alisha
So then you don't have to feel like you're walking on eggshells of like, if I say the wrong thing, because if it's words only, then, you know, it could be dicey. But if you're showing with your actions that you are there for them, then that goes a really long way.
00;28;22;06 - 00;28;26;14
Shaun
Wonderful question, Alison, and thank you, Alisha. Shane, did you have a thought to add to that?
00;28;27;14 - 00;29;04;11
Shane
I know that the the only other thing that I was going to say was specifically for supporting Foster parents. I it is a really unique trauma also for foster parents that know they go from maybe for for us, for instance, like we went from having no kids to having three kids in our home. And sometimes what's been more hurtful is when people don't ask or there there's like no curiosity.
00;29;04;20 - 00;29;40;29
Shane
And it would be like, am I invisible? Is that like, this is a huge thing happening in my life and you're not even serious? That’s one experience that we've had specifically about like supporting foster parents and then the kids. I think Alison made a really good point about, you know, that they're not they don't feel lucky that that might just not be the right it might not be they might not be received the way that they that you're hoping it to be received.
00;29;41;13 - 00;30;04;28
Shaun
Thank you again for sharing. That's I don't know. I personally would err I think on the side of not asking too many questions like not prying. But I think that's really refreshing to hear that there's probably some needed connection that needs to happen and we could be supportive of that. Thank you.
00;30;04;28 - 00;30;08;11
Lanette
Yeah. Asking the right questions. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
00;30;09;04 - 00;30;17;13
Shaun
We're going to transition now to talking about triggers and trauma. So again, here is another clip specifically talking about trauma.
00;30;18;15 - 00;30;20;05
Speaker 6
Where's my potato chips?
00;30;20;05 - 00;30;22;03
Speaker 5
Oh, we're not having chips tonight much.
00;30;22;03 - 00;30;43;23
Speaker 6
Sorry, I want my chips later. Lizzy, Pete and I worked really hard on this dinner, and there's lots of yummy food for you to eat. Hey, let me know about this. Are you yelling at me? I'm just trying to help you. I'm not yelling. I'm sorry. I am just that I was. But it's look needed. Don't do what you just said.
00;30;43;23 - 00;30;45;21
Speaker 6
Go to your bedroom.
00;30;45;27 - 00;30;51;10
Speaker 5
Right? You said you're not going to have potato chips, but you will drink that milk.
00;30;51;17 - 00;30;58;28
Speaker 6
In any case, we have this. It's fine. Okay, fine. Okay. Let's try some of this meatloaf. Okay.
00;30;59;13 - 00;31;07;13
Speaker 5
Hey, not having chips? Yeah. I don't think she's getting on board with the plan. Honey, I don't get. You sure you don't want to just give us some chips?
00;31;07;16 - 00;31;19;05
Speaker 6
No, we're not giving her chips. She's going to eat this. Oh, sorry. I'm so sorry. No, no, it's okay.
00;31;19;05 - 00;31;21;11
Speaker 5
Don't cry. Watch your–
00;31;23;23 - 00;31;25;10
Speaker 6
Hey. You give those to me. Give me.
00;31;27;06 - 00;31;29;12
Speaker 5
I'll get it. I'll just say that what you.
00;31;30;19 - 00;31;35;26
Speaker 6
Need is a really, really good potato.
00;31;35;26 - 00;31;50;28
Speaker 7
Oh, my God. Oh, God. What are you doing? Put it out.
00;31;52;28 - 00;31;54;07
Speaker 5
Oh, what's that noise?
00;31;56;15 - 00;32;01;14
Speaker 5
Why is she growling? That wasn't in the class. I got nothing for that. She's got a knife.
00;32;02;00 - 00;32;02;21
Speaker 6
It's just a butter knife.
00;32;02;27 - 00;32;03;22
Speaker 5
It's still a knife.
00;32;03;28 - 00;32;04;25
Speaker 6
Just put the knife down.
00;32;04;25 - 00;32;06;28
Speaker 5
Hey, look. Just put down the weapon, okay?
00;32;06;29 - 00;32;09;01
Speaker 6
You guys want me to do with this, or do you still got it?
00;32;09;03 - 00;32;11;00
Speaker 5
Yeah. Do you want to let her jump in here now, please?
00;32;11;15 - 00;32;20;01
Speaker 6
Okay, fine, fine. Yeah.
00;32;20;04 - 00;32;25;11
Speaker 5
Yes. You got to learn some Spanish.
00;32;25;22 - 00;32;31;07
Speaker 6
Why would you give a kid milk and a glass cup? I'm sorry, I didn't. Why did you do that?
00;32;31;07 - 00;32;52;15
Lanette
All right, so we got a few questions from listeners that related to that clip. One of them was, How do you know if a foster situation is something you can handle, especially with addiction, abuse and other things I haven't experienced personally? So in that scene, it's kind of wild. So yeah, how do you know if you can handle something before you're there, in moments like that?
00;32;53;03 - 00;33;12;23
Alisha
Yeah. And it was really entertaining to just listen to it, actually, because I think that any parent can relate to what that sounds like. You know, maybe last night at dinner was like that. Honestly, I think that's very relatable on any level. And then you add in that the parents or the kids are still kind of strangers to each other.
00;33;13;03 - 00;33;37;19
Alisha
And then you probably heard the fight over the potato chips, which if you remember from the earlier clip, the little girl named her doll Potato Chip and just mentioned offhand, I really like potato chips. And then later it turns into this huge thing where she's not getting her potato chips. She likes them, she's not getting them and has this huge tantrum.
00;33;38;01 - 00;33;56;13
Alisha
So I think it's a really, really well done example of at the beginning you're just getting to know each other and you don't know what's going to be a trigger and whether it's not going to be a trigger. Maybe another kid, it's going to be, you know, the the the doll like you you can't bring the doll somewhere.
00;33;56;13 - 00;34;18;08
Alisha
And that would be their trigger. This little girl, it was the potato chips. So I think there are a lot of things that that can happen that you can't anticipate. And so I think it's good to remember that you never left on your own and you always have a social worker that you can call, you can always advocate for.
00;34;18;21 - 00;34;42;26
Alisha
If something doesn't feel normal to speak up and ask for help. And so sometimes that could be with a social worker or other times that might be with the community that you're building of friends, family and other foster parents that can support you through it. I think there's a lot of a lot to be said about trusting that you can problem solve and and do the best that you can.
00;34;43;04 - 00;35;06;04
Alisha
There's not always that one thing that's going to make it better. But if you can, like trust your future self to take it as it comes, just like you've done with other things in your life or with your current kids, like if you have kids already, then you can you can know when something is feeling right or when something's feeling uncomfortable and you need to speak up about it.
00;35;07;05 - 00;35;13;03
Shaun
Have you personally had experiences like what we just listened to?
00;35;13;03 - 00;35;44;00
Shane
Yeah, we I feel like we've there's been times when we definitely hit our limit and like, we're screaming, they're screaming and it's just like crazy like that. The thing with the potato chips, one of the it's subtle. Later on the movie, I think it's really easy to miss because I think at another dinner scene they're eating spaghetti or something and they have potato chips on top of the spaghetti for.
00;35;44;00 - 00;36;32;00
Shane
So it's like they compromise. And like the I, I think it was in another question about like feeling like you're co-parent with the bio family and the government and stuff and like your role as a foster parent. And it's really hard to get this to really sink in. But like you're there to provide them a safe place and to love them and that might be very different than what you see your role as your parent, as a parent to other kids or to to the kids that are already in your home.
00;36;33;02 - 00;37;02;13
Shane
We had a we had a trainee just the other night and they were talking about there was a lady who was talking about her teenage, um, foster placement and that he just keeps running away. And, you know, I'm thinking with my kids, like, I wouldn't just let my teenager just keep leaving you. You can't lock your door or something, you know?
00;37;02;13 - 00;37;32;05
Shane
You can't just go out. It's not safe. But like, there's rules that you're not allowed to physically restrain these kids and which is just a good thing. We probably should do that with our own kids, too. But like, you're you're not they're not going to. Let's see. I should I said it's like you have you have to let go and and realize that they might make really bad decisions.
00;37;32;05 - 00;38;11;20
Shane
Bad decisions that you would not even give your other kids the chance to make. But your job is just to make sure that they have a safe place to come home and that they feel loved and welcome. And so you have to you have to keep your own kids safe. You know, there's with especially with things like addiction and abuse and stuff, you want to be careful like the training that we got the other night was like, always make sure that you are in between them in the door so that if they get violent, you have a way out, which is just like a really dark thing to have to think about when you're parenting
00;38;11;20 - 00;38;48;13
Shane
a child. And then for younger kids, especially with with this stuff, they're still very innocent and they'll bring up things about their trauma. And I think you just have to meet them on their level. They're going to be talking very light about some really dark things and you just want to keep them talking so that you can, you know, that you can then report what's happening to them, to their caseworker, because that's all you're mandated.
00;38;48;13 - 00;39;26;12
Shane
Reporter And this is all stuff that's going to go into their, you know, their reunification plan and, and stuff like that. And, but, you know, it, it takes like kind of putting a barrier in your heart or like a this you'll want to just like, react maybe really strongly when you hear your two year old say the F-word or something or, you know, talk about something really traumatic, but you just have to kind of say, okay, like this is where we are.
00;39;26;12 - 00;40;07;21
Shane
And, um, and again, like lowering your expectations for how a child is supposed to act or what they're supposed to say and. Hopefully once you do that, at least you can take the pressure off of yourself of giving certain outcome. And, you know, there's still I realize that there's still that stress of safety or feeling overwhelmed and stuff, and that that's part of it that you can't avoid that.
00;40;07;28 - 00;40;21;01
Shane
But maybe you can take the pressure off of seeing some miraculous change when if you realize maybe that's not what your role is.
00;40;21;01 - 00;40;39;09
Shaun
Right. Thank you for sharing that. Another question that we have from a listener, and feel free to answer this. Hey, well, but they asked how do you set boundaries and keep everyone safe? Or how do you have a relationship with people who've had a very different lived experience than you? I might you answer that.
00;40;39;09 - 00;41;06;21
Alisha
I really like this question. It's clearly coming from someone who's thinking deeply about what that would look like. And I think that the the biggest thing that you have in common with these people that might feel very different from you is the kids, though, with their biological family. They might have grown up very differently and are still living in very different circumstances than you are, not all the time.
00;41;06;21 - 00;41;38;04
Alisha
But sometimes that can be the case. And when your focus is on the kids and you're showing that you respect the kids and you respect them as the grandparents or the parents, that goes a long way when the kids were reunified. So the kids that we were fostering, when they were reunified with their mom, we were the ones bringing them to the visits, dropping them off, and then and then leaving.
00;41;38;10 - 00;42;04;10
Alisha
And it took a long, long time to build trust. And we didn't really have a lot of time to talk in those transfers. And so just I did my best to be on time for those visits and bring the kids in. Nice clothes, hair done, just showing that with all the little bits that we could do to show that we love the kids, we're taking care of them, we respect you, we're on time.
00;42;04;23 - 00;42;30;03
Alisha
We'll be flexible when the kids are having a hard time leaving and letting those actions speak louder than anything that we could say. And then over time, she let us into her life so that we could continue to be a part of them, a part of their life. So it's those like focusing on the kids and letting those actions speak for themselves will make a could make a difference.
00;42;30;03 - 00;42;58;01
Alisha
It's, of course, their choice if they're going to accept that or not, they might not want to have a relationship with you. But again, what things that I think is really important, letting go of any particular outcome, you might not ever be friends with them. They might not ever show gratitude. But that's that's not the point. The point is to be there for the kids.
00;42;58;01 - 00;43;17;05
Shaun
Thank you. And then another question, and this may lead into our next kind of topic, but when you make these bonds and the kids might have to leave your family at home, how do you grieve? And then I know that you've you've gone through this because you had a placement left. And then like you mentioned, they came back about a year later.
00;43;17;23 - 00;43;30;05
Shaun
And then kind of a follow up question, How do you build these attachments knowing that you're probably going to get hurt?
00;43;30;05 - 00;44;08;05
Shane
I feel like Alisa and I neither one want to answer the question because I don't know. Christopher Good at it. And it is it is really hard, I guess, reiterating where we just said that, you know, that like really divorcing the outcome from what you're doing is really important. And as it's like that, you're not you're not becoming a foster parent.
00;44;08;05 - 00;44;46;08
Shane
The goal can be to foster, to adopt, but recognizing and understanding that that is not a guarantee and that the goal of foster care is reunification and taking to ends. You're you're not doing it for you. This is it. It does have to be a 100% selfless act not to pat my back because there's you still have a heart and you're still going to have to deal with it.
00;44;46;08 - 00;45;17;08
Shane
And I would say the thing that I tried to do when the kids went home because it was a lot of healing and it was it was especially hard for Alisha because she was basically she was full-time mom. And then the kids went home and now what am I doing with that? They're there for me. I still I still got to go to my job for 8 hours a day.
00;45;17;08 - 00;46;06;22
Shane
I didn't have that same disruption when they went home. And so I that what we came up with then is we need to figure out we need to structure our lives in such a way that foster kids are coming in and out of our home, in and out of our lives. And we're not leaving morphing our lives around foster care so that if there's some sort of flow from before, during and after foster care and we, you know, we thought that what that would be was a we said we need to have a part time job or a full time job during it so that before, during and after she could still have that in
00;46;06;23 - 00;46;21;06
Shane
her life. We we obviously haven't kept with that plan because, you know, she quit her job when when the kids came back. But I still think that's good advice. We just we haven't figured out exactly how to do that.
00;46;22;02 - 00;46;54;23
Alisha
But I actually we're having a realization on the spot that I think that might be evidence that we're getting more comfortable with ambiguity, that at one moment, knowing that I have a job and something to structure my time with or without kids was really helpful. And then when three kids came back into our lives and it became evident that for us to have quality of life, I would much rather be spending time at home than spending my free time trying to squeeze a job in.
00;46;55;04 - 00;47;17;08
Alisha
And that that became the right answer and try and trusting that that if and when they go home again, that something else will be the right answer and we'll figure it out when we get there. So letting go of really letting go of a lot of things so that we can enjoy our lives, enjoy time with the kids.
00;47;17;08 - 00;47;25;23
Alisha
So there's been a lot of embracing ambiguity that has been really helpful for us.
00;47;25;23 - 00;47;49;09
Lanette
Awesome. Thank you guys so much. It's a really hard thing. So in the movie, I feel like the most emotional part is when the family finds out that the kids are going to be going back with their mom and they're all getting ready for that. And then the morning that she's supposed to come and pick them up, the social workers pull up and say, you know, you're not going to be able to go home with your mom.
00;47;49;26 - 00;48;18;13
Lanette
And it's just this heartbreaking scene for Lizzy, the oldest, because she worked really hard trying to help her mom be able to get them back home. And so we're going to watch or listen to one last. And that's what happens right after she finds out she runs away and just really upset. And so we'll get to where P and Ellie find Lizzy and are talking about what's going on processing this development.
00;48;20;06 - 00;48;24;12
Speaker 5
You're with us now? Yeah. And you know why? We've got a cosmic connection, right?
00;48;24;12 - 00;48;28;12
Speaker 6
We've got a cosmic connection. I know you feel really sorry for me right now, but you really don't.
00;48;28;12 - 00;48;32;10
Speaker 5
It's got nothing to do with what just happened. Read the letter Ellie gave you.
00;48;38;25 - 00;49;00;16
Speaker 6
To this week that Lizzy once asked me why we did this, why we took them and couldn't give her answer at the time we did it because something was missing in our lives. We didn't know what it was. It was one leader in this.
00;49;01;15 - 00;49;15;21
Speaker 5
You see. You was missing, Lizzy. But now you're here. And you are stuck with us. That's right. We're going to be at every soccer game. We're going to be all of you asked about your grades. Yeah, we're going to buy your first prom dress, and.
00;49;15;21 - 00;49;24;29
Speaker 6
It's going to be really, really pretty, but not too revealing. Super sweet, you know, too sexy. Just like, really that gorgeous, sweet spot.
00;49;24;29 - 00;49;32;12
Speaker 5
Yeah. When you graduate high school, we're going to be in the front row embarrassing you, and then we're going to be in the front row again when you graduate, too. Or even if you don't.
00;49;32;12 - 00;49;42;07
Speaker 6
But you will be graduating college because it's so important and you're so smart. And I don't mean to push, but it's just opens up so many more opportunities. But either way, we're going to be there for you someday.
00;49;42;21 - 00;49;47;16
Speaker 5
I'm going to give you away your way, even if I think the guy's opinion, he's not good enough for my little girl.
00;49;47;29 - 00;50;14;23
Speaker 6
Someday in the future. Someday, in a way, way, way off. Deep, deep, deep, distant future. Lizzy, can you go home now? Yeah, I guess we can. I know you don't like this, but you're going to have to get used to it once in a while. Okay.
00;50;14;23 - 00;50;18;17
Speaker 5
Can I get one of those? Because I haven't gotten a single hug from you since I've known you.
00;50;19;01 - 00;50;21;27
Speaker 6
These. Okay.
00;50;23;22 - 00;50;42;02
Lanette
All right, so we're about out of time. Alison, Shane, we would love to have you guys wrap up. Last thoughts and any last things you want to make sure we talk about, especially in regards to unknowns and all of these different challenges and the foster care community.
00;50;42;02 - 00;51;33;29
Shane
Um, I just with, with that clip in mind that taking a child away from their bio parents, whether it's through adoption or foster care, is incredibly traumatic. Everybody goes through trauma. And Alisha and I are obviously super big supporters of adoption, but it's a trauma. Um, and um, you know, at the end of the movie, you see, you know, it's this big happy ending in the courtroom and everybody's smiling and there's happy music, but there's somebody there who, there's somebody who's not in that picture.
00;51;34;24 - 00;52;23;18
Shane
And that's and it's really tragic that, you know, these kids had to be separated from her, from their bio mom. And I guess if somebody was really brave, they could do like a mere movie of showing Carlito's Experience throughout this whole thing, because it really is tragic and traumatic. And, um, so you just have to I don't know, I, I've been trying to keep that in my mind, especially with I get really possessive of these kids of like, I want, I want them and I want them forever.
00;52;24;24 - 00;52;51;10
Shane
And I don't want them to go back to like to remember that and that's, uh, you know, we just like if somebody gets a you has to give an amputation, you don't make that decision lightly. But it might be the best decision for them and they can live a happy full life afterwards. But it's, it's a huge, weighty thing to to think about.
00;52;51;10 - 00;53;05;08
Shane
And so I guess that's kind of the sobering thought that I want to leave, you know, with the with the emotional happy moment of everybody hugging and and and feeling that connection.
00;53;06;19 - 00;53;31;00
Alisha
So in foster care, it is encouraged to for the kids to have a relationship with their bio family as long as it safe they will be visit schedule will be established where it is supervised between the caseworker and the bio parent and the child. So you would bring the the children to the visit. Caseworker would supervise, make notes of how things are going.
00;53;31;00 - 00;54;00;17
Alisha
And then the parent also has to meet other requirements to get to have that right, to have their kids back in their home safely. And that could be anything from from therapy to rehab to parenting classes. It could be any number of things. So, yes, since the reunification is typically the goal so that bio families can get their lives back together, back in order, then that is definitely encouraged.
00;54;00;17 - 00;54;19;20
Shane
And in case you were asking about after an adoption, I think it would be the same as any open adoption that it's up to the adoptive parents and their level, what they're comfortable with, with relationship with the bio family.
00;54;19;20 - 00;54;21;06
Alisha
Yeah, that's a that's a great point.
00;54;21;13 - 00;54;36;25
Shaun
Shannon Alicia, as we as we finish again, the whole impetus of this chat was about this movie. So recommend don't recommend what? Yeah. What are your kind of final thoughts on on that.
00;54;38;04 - 00;55;05;22
Alisha
Yeah definitely recommend it We it's one of our favorites that we come back to because it's so accurate. Obviously it's dramatized, but just the emotion of it is very accurate. The roller coaster is accurate and it's impressive that they put together this movie on such a serious topic, but they do it in a really humorous way without without anything offensive in it.
00;55;06;00 - 00;55;26;19
Alisha
I haven't found anything that's, you know, they talk do not understand foster parents or the kids in foster care. So it's lots of dark humor, lots of conversations that we have had jokingly and we just we recommend to anybody who's like, you know, what's foster care like this? They just watch into the family because start there. You'll probably like it.
00;55;26;19 - 00;55;31;12
Alisha
We can talk more about it, but it's a really starting point to understand what it's like.
00;55;31;22 - 00;56;00;07
Shane
Yep, there's same there's obvious there's obviously is storytelling elements. You know, they wanted a happy ending and and they've they're they did a lot of things that made sense for storytelling that maybe weren't too realistic. I don't know how easy it would be to keep your kids arrested. I don't know. But, you know, so there was a lot of dramatization.
00;56;00;07 - 00;56;06;02
Shane
But the feeling and the tone of the movie, they nailed it. So it's a good movie.
00;56;06;09 - 00;56;29;01
Lanette
Well, thank you, guys. So very much. We really appreciate you talking and sharing your experiences with us. And again, I, I personally I think this movie is well-done, too. And I don't really have experience in the foster care world, but I did feel so heartbroken about the portrayal of the biological mother and just the way that things came about.
00;56;29;10 - 00;56;50;10
Lanette
I remember watching it the first time and thinking, Man, I wish there was some way that they could keep like and sure, maybe in the in the movie at least ensure that the kids are still going to have her in their lives and find some kind of way to make this a more positive experience ultimately for everybody adding those pieces.
00;56;51;19 - 00;56;56;25
Lanette
So yeah and I love yeah that you guys advocate for that so much yeah.
00;56;56;25 - 00;57;22;15
Alisha
And right as advocates for open adoption too. That was a downplayed part of like the role that a mom, you know the bio mom would have in this in this situation. And like she said, we want to see, you know, some other movie or other portrayals from her perspective because often it's not so clear cut of what should happen.
00;57;23;00 - 00;57;42;26
Alisha
And and there can be a lot of compassion and but just even when they see her, they're like she you know, she looks so normal. I don't know what is expecting. Even that alone, I think, did a good job of subverting expectations because there is a very outdated view of the kids that come into foster care and the situation that their parents are in.
00;57;43;06 - 00;57;54;16
Alisha
And there is there's a stereotype and it's not it's not accurate. They can be for lots of different reasons. So and so we want we want more of these stories to round out the conversation.
00;57;55;04 - 00;57;56;01
Lanette
That's awesome. Thank you.
00;57;56;01 - 00;58;26;26
Shane
I just along with that, you think about how traumatic this is for the kids that have to get pulled from their home and how bad things have to be to justify that. And then how hard of a time they're going to have dealing with that trauma on the flip side, you think about it, if we're just looking at the fireman, you know, we want her to be happy and successful as well.
00;58;27;10 - 00;59;07;01
Shane
And taking her kids away is incredibly traumatic and it in the short term will probably make things worse for her. You know, there's going to be deep, deep depression and the baby's a little bit of accountability that she was feeling because, oh, I'd keep things together because of my kids and now they're out of the picture and, you know, there's just like you have to think like, okay, how bad does it have to be for me to to do this, to enact this trauma on her so that she can so that she can get better to it?
00;59;07;03 - 00;59;19;28
Shane
So, yeah, it's really hard. It's hard, though.
00;59;19;28 - 00;59;24;06
Lanette
Hard. I really appreciate the full picture of you that you guys are painting now.
00;59;24;20 - 00;59;46;20
Shaun
Yeah. Well, Shannon, Lisa, thank you so much. Alison, Jessica, Tori, thank you for joining us and asking some questions. Thank you so much. We really, really appreciate you were we're glad that we could watch this movie and that it's a pretty accurate portrayal of what foster care might might be like. So thank you all so, so much.
00;59;46;25 - 00;59;47;15
Alisha
Thank you.
00;59;47;16 - 00;59;59;03
Shane
Thanks, everyone.
00;59;59;03 - 01;00;02;18
Lanette
Thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Open Adoption Project.
01;00;02;28 - 01;00;13;02
Shaun
Yeah, well, that wraps up in this episode. We're so grateful to Shane and Alisha and all who joined live on the Zoom chat for the conversation we were able to have today on the movie Instant Family.
01;00;13;20 - 01;00;39;06
Lanette
Our next couple of episodes we are super excited about. So we found a couple of adult adoptees who grew up with open adoption. We've had Dakota on the podcast before. He's talked about his experience growing up with an open adoption, but it can be hard to find many adult adoptees who are older adults who have experienced really open adoptions where they had ongoing contact and relationships with their birth family.
01;00;39;16 - 01;00;59;08
Lanette
And so we have our next two episodes, our interviews with adults who grew up with that kind of openness when it was really a lot less common and sometimes just unheard of. And so hearing these perspectives, we're so excited to share them. It was a really neat experience to talk to both of these women who will be on the show the next couple of episodes.
01;00;59;13 - 01;01;46;27
Shaun
So we’ll see you in you’re download feed when we’re back in two weeks with a new episode. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Open Adoption Project.