Ep 69

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Lanette

Welcome to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode 69 and we're the Nelsons. I’m Lanette.


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Shaun

And I'm Shaun. In this episode, we interview Candice Cahill, and she is a first mother who is from Alaska. And she, in this episode, has a great conversation with Lanette that exposes a lot of the really raw emotions of being a first parent. I really enjoyed listening to her perspective and point of view. And I think toward the end of the episode, she points this out.


00;00;34;21 - 00;00;52;15

Shaun

And I think it's something that we've really tried to do in this sphere, but we love highlighting different aspects of the adoption constellation. And I'm glad that we get to add Candace's voice to this episode and to our perspectives.


00;00;52;28 - 00;01;21;03

Lanette

Yeah, this is a really raw and emotional discussion and conversation, and Candice is so vulnerable and open, sharing some really challenging things, but I really appreciate her sharing with us, letting us learn with her and from her. You will feel so enriched and that you'll be able to come away with a deeper understanding. And I think some really great thoughts on how we can make things better.


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Shaun

Yeah. So here's our conversation with Candice Cahill.


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Lanette

We are here on the podcast with Candice. Candice, thank you so much for joining us.


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Candace

Thank you for having me.


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Lanette

To start off, can you tell us a bit about who you are?


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Candace

Yes. So my name is Candice Cahill. I currently live in Denali, Alaska. So very remote Alaska. I'm originally from Minnesota and I work as a national park ranger in the summer months. In the winter, I'm an artist and I do everything from writing music. Silversmithing I it's it's really my passion is art. And the national park just allows me to do my art in the winter.


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Candace

So, yeah.


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Lanette

Oh, that's neat. It's beautiful up in Alaska. We've been planning a trip, and I hope we can make it to Denali. It looks amazing.


00;02;27;16 - 00;02;37;10

Candace

It is amazing. Oh, and I should also say I am married. Been married for over 25 years now. And I have no other children. Yeah.


00;02;38;06 - 00;02;43;05

Lanette

All right. So can we go ahead and jump in and just hear your adoption story? Whatever you'd like to share?


00;02;43;17 - 00;03;18;03

Candace

Absolutely. So I got pregnant when I was 20 and ended up giving birth at 21. I was with my boyfriend at the time, so I kind of went into it just assuming I would be a mom, whether he was there or not. But he was there. So I was like, Oh, great. You know, I've had plenty of people in my family, both close family and extended family who had gotten pregnant when they were younger than me and, you know, 16, 17, 18.


00;03;18;03 - 00;03;45;03

Candace

And they kept their children and the boyfriends all screwed up. Whether he's with me or not, I'll be fine. What ended up happening is about almost five months along, my boyfriend was like, you know, we should go to counseling and try to figure out all this, you know? And but the way that he presented it was was like, we're going to go to get parenting counseling to learn how to do this together.


00;03;45;04 - 00;04;08;04

Candace

You know, not that we were going to get married or anything, but we were just going to figure out that that was what I understood. But when we got there, it was actually an adoption agency, and I felt tricked. And but at the same time, the the person that we ended up seeing was wonderful. And immediately I felt comfortable with her.


00;04;08;04 - 00;04;31;00

Candace

She was kind. She was compassionate and really ended up filling a mother role for me, which I didn't really have. Right. So so I ended up continuing to see her, even though we ended up my boyfriend, I ended up breaking up. I continued to see her because what she presented was we're going to do some counseling that will let you like decision making counseling.


00;04;31;00 - 00;05;03;01

Candace

So we're going to go through some things about what parenting would look like and just get a sense. Right, which was great, right. So, you know, going through budgeting, figuring out, you know, how would you get to work, how you know, where would I live? I mean, all of those things. That was very helpful. But at the same time, part of the the process was learning the way that they presented it was, we're going to go through your family history and take a look at what your family has been like.


00;05;03;11 - 00;05;22;01

Candace

And, you know, so so it was things like looking at history of alcoholism, drug abuse, neglect, violence, all of those things in your family so that you can see what the patterns are. Right. So, you know, what kind of what typically to expect, because what they're saying is that, you know, these are the patterns in your life. You can see them.


00;05;22;01 - 00;05;43;13

Candace

We go back, we look back generations, generations and you can see these patterns of that happened generation after generation in my family. And and rather than presenting it like, okay, now we learn this and we can learn the skills to not repeat, that was not how it was presented. It was like I was destined to repeat these same things.


00;05;43;29 - 00;06;07;24

Candace

And and it what it ended up doing is just made me feel worse about myself. I already had pretty low self esteem as it was, and and so it was valuable, but it was also not a good thing in that sense. But what ended up happening was I mean, there were a lot of things, but essentially it came down to I didn't think I was going to be able to do it.


00;06;07;24 - 00;06;33;29

Candace

I didn't think that I was I would have what I needed. I was poor. I didn't have an education. I didn't have any support, you know, none of those things. And and because they didn't present it like I could learn. But then on the heels of that said, but we have so many families that would be perfect. We have we have couples that are ideal in every way and they're ready, you know, so and and then you can pick them.


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Candace

All right. So I was forcing love.


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Lanette

I mean.


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Candace

Yes. Yeah. Well, yes, but the fact that they would let me pick them made a huge difference because now I could look for somebody completely opposite from what I had. Right. And and it gave me the way that I describe it often is it gave me a sense of control and what I felt was an uncontrollable situation. So I latched on to that and and that and the family that I ended up picking, both my ex-boyfriend and I chose together.


00;07;07;08 - 00;07;31;12

Candace

That was actually the very last time I ever saw him. I haven't seen him since was the day we selected the parents and got to meet them one time after Michael. That's our son Michael was placed with them and then would get updates once a year so that was another thing like that. They would give me letters and pictures once a year to let me know that he was okay.


00;07;31;12 - 00;07;48;01

Candace

I couldn't I couldn't contact the person that had to go through the agency, but it was like, okay, I've given them all the list of things that I want and then they will keep me updated and I will know that he's okay, right? So that was really important that those updates were going to be coming and that was every year.


00;07;48;01 - 00;08;07;19

Candace

That was the thing that I looked forward to, is being able to get those updates on his birthday. But then they stopped and when he was eight and I actually they they came late on when he was six and I went called the agency was like, you need to check in. And they did so about a couple of months late.


00;08;07;19 - 00;08;23;27

Candace

And then the next one also came late. And when he was eight, I went to the agency like, they're in person. I'm like, You guys need to figure this out. And they're like, Oh, no, no, no. You signed away your rights long ago and this is not it's not a legal, legally binding thing. So we can't do anything.


00;08;23;27 - 00;08;47;27

Candace

And I was devastated because I had no recourse whatsoever. So fast forward to two days before his 18th birthday. We got a letter in the mail through the agency from the adoptive family, and that was when we discovered that his adoptive mom had passed away when he was ten. And that was a big reason why communication and that she had been very ill for many years.


00;08;48;07 - 00;09;13;28

Candace

And but the connection was remade. So we reunited and over the phone we talked over the phone, did intermittent texting and in emails for a couple of years, and then he asked to meet me in person. So we went down to Minnesota and met him, had one beautiful day together, and then again went back to kind of intermittent contact.


00;09;13;28 - 00;09;38;25

Candace

I gave him all the control for contact because I was advised that that was what you need to do. And but then he passed away in his sleep before we had ever had a chance to meet again. So I feel like in terms of my story when it comes to adoption and relinquishment is I had really blocked it all out after the adoption because I couldn't deal with the grief.


00;09;39;14 - 00;09;52;01

Candace

Losing him a second time brought all of that back on top of the new grief. So it's been almost ten years now since he passed away. And I just now finally feel like I'm coming out of it so hard.


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Lanette

Wow. Heartbreaking.


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Candace

Absolutely.


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Lanette

So when you went to the adoption agency for the counseling, you were not thinking adoption at all. You were planning on parenting and this really talked you out of that.


00;10;05;17 - 00;10;17;24

Candace

And then that and pressure from the ex-boyfriend and pressure from his family, all of those there were there were a lot of coercive elements and manipulative things going on, not just there elsewhere as well. Yeah.


00;10;17;24 - 00;10;24;19

Lanette

Okay. Did you feel like you had anyone who was supporting you and helping you feel like you could do this? You could parent. Yes, but you just.


00;10;25;09 - 00;10;39;01

Candace

No, there wasn't anybody. No. And I didn't I didn't seek anybody out either. I didn't know. I didn't know what I didn't know, you know, about how that thing is. And yeah, yeah.


00;10;39;19 - 00;10;44;12

Lanette

You have a pretty good relationship now with Michael's adoptive father and stuff. Yes.


00;10;44;28 - 00;11;08;02

Candace

Yes. Okay. I do. We have a beautiful relationship. And, you know, he he was when I was choosing his letter was what made me choose them. The agency was gatekeeper. So they were they gave me who they thought I should have. So they gave me four files, essentially. And. And. But I read through them all. But his letter was the only one that was handwritten.


00;11;09;20 - 00;11;30;07

Candace

And that made a difference to me as a writer, as someone who who likes it's more personal, it's more intimate and so he was a big reason why I chose them, because he was very in touch with his emotions, his ability to communicate, to talk about them, that it wasn't, you know, when we met in person, we both cried or we all cried.


00;11;30;19 - 00;11;54;09

Candace

And he wasn't ashamed of it, you know. And his is the older son, John, who's also adopted, came to that meeting. Michael did not come because we figured it would be too hard. But John came. John was four, and one of the most significant memories from that day is, you know, we were all talking and crying and, you know, one of the most awkward kinds of situations you can ever imagine.


00;11;54;09 - 00;12;19;23

Candace

But John was coloring on the floor and suddenly he perked up and he said, you know, my dad cries all the time. And their tears of joy is what he says. And I'm just like, wow, okay. That's it was just very impactful for me. So when when Michael died and we got the call from David, you know, he was immediately like, Yeah, you need to be here, you know, because I was like, I have to come.


00;12;19;23 - 00;12;50;27

Candace

And he's like, Yes, you need to be here. And when I got there, him and everybody else in the family completely open arms for us and being there and every person that we met that they introduced us to. I was introduced to his mom as Michael's mom, and I had never experienced that. And it was a profound shift for me, claiming that part of my identity too late.


00;12;51;15 - 00;12;54;26

Lanette

So hard, beautiful, so many emotions as I hear you talk.


00;12;54;26 - 00;13;26;28

Candace

It's yeah, And like with David and the family, you know, writing my book, you know, when I told them that I was going to, I wanted to write my story completely supportive in every single way. Gabe I gave them the opportunity. Would you want me to change names or hide identity? Know, like, absolutely not. You know, So just completely in my corner, the family, they had a group of like 15 that came up to Alaska a few years ago and spent spent some time up here and and we've spent weekends at each other's homes.


00;13;26;28 - 00;13;49;21

Candace

And, you know, for us, it's or at least for me, David and the whole family contained everything that remains of Michael. They have everything that's left. They're my connection. And I and I'm pretty sure when I show up at their door and said at their table, they see Michael. He looked just like me, you know. So it's it's our connection.


00;13;49;29 - 00;13;54;06

Candace

And Michael brought us together and it will keep us together. Yeah.


00;13;54;14 - 00;14;01;17

Lanette

Beautiful. Well, I don't think we've talked about your book yet. You mentioned it just a moment ago, so I thought maybe we could have you talk about it more.


00;14;02;03 - 00;14;28;16

Candace

Sure. Yeah. So the book is titled Goodbye Again. And. And it's really just my my story of Michael in my life. So it actually begins the first day, essentially, that we go to that to the counselor and to takes me through all the way through his life and just dealing with how did I come to that decision, How did I get there?


00;14;29;28 - 00;14;51;08

Candace

Because it wasn't just, you know, in terms of the agency, when I talk about some of the coercion and manipulation there, yes, that was there. But it was also my choice. I did make this choice. How did I make that choice? Right? How does someone choose to relinquish their rights over their child? It's a really difficult thing to try to explain to people.


00;14;51;08 - 00;15;24;04

Candace

So the best way for me to do it was to write it as if the reader is in my shoes. So it so that it goes through dealing with the reading, the the updates and looking at the pictures and then suddenly being gone. And how do you how do I balance survive that, you know, but each of these stages of having Michael in my life, having taken away, bringing him back, having them taken away, you know, that ebb and flow and how I survived it, because it it hasn't been easy.


00;15;24;04 - 00;15;48;21

Candace

It's really the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole life. And then it's the book itself is about child loss, all types of child loss. It's about motherhood, how we define motherhood, how motherhood showed up in my life. And there are many people that I've talked to that have read the books. They say, we connect to so many parts of that.


00;15;49;01 - 00;16;12;12

Candace

You know, my relationship with my mother, my relationship with Michael's mother, you know, all of those things. Right. But in the end, probably the the biggest thing the book is really about is how two things can be true at one time, that placing Michael for adoption was the hardest thing I ever did, the hardest decision I ever made.


00;16;13;25 - 00;16;41;12

Candace

I have regrets about it, but it was also a wise choice at the time because I don't know that I would have survived it. I don't know that he would've survived it. You know, Michael's death, he it's like tragic. It's absolutely tragic. But what I've gained through my relationship with his family is absolutely beautiful. It's sublime. And I'm really, really fortunate to have that.


00;16;42;02 - 00;17;02;14

Lanette

Adoption so complicated. There's so much just the juxtaposition and where it's in saying how much exists in one space, bright, beautiful and traumatic and hard and just all jumbled together. I would love to hear what your thoughts are regarding that Adoption is beautiful narrative.


00;17;04;00 - 00;17;31;19

Candace

Yeah, I that's, that's been like the hardest thing for me because you know when I when I was going through counseling, you know, that was what they were saying. Adoption is this beautiful, wonderful choice. And, you know, everything is is going to be perfect. The family will be perfect. And, you know, so so and I absolutely bought into it.


00;17;31;22 - 00;17;58;17

Candace

I absolutely bought into it because, you know, coming from the poverty and the abusive background that I came from was I had a lot of bad things in my my childhood baby. Yeah. That looked perfect and looked like the perfect solution. Right. And but what when all was said and done, that the grief I felt, the sorrow I felt, I didn't feel acknowledged in that at all.


00;17;58;17 - 00;18;19;25

Candace

I didn't feel like I could talk about it to anybody. You know, if if if somebody found out that that I had relinquished or placed, you know, I mean, language and terminology is really important. Right? And one of the ways they turn it into this beautiful and wonderful thing is I placed my baby for adoption. Right? I didn't give them away that relinquish them.


00;18;20;04 - 00;18;47;03

Candace

I placed them right. And that's a very specific tool that's used to coerce people, in my opinion. But you know that if I said something, the fact that somebody would say, Oh, that's so brave and you're so strong and and so selfless and all these things, that I didn't feel any of those things. Right? So there was this cognitive dissonance that was going on, and I didn't know how to deal with that, and I wasn't given the tools to.


00;18;47;17 - 00;19;04;09

Candace

So it was yeah, that that was such a difficult thing. But basically it prevented me from talking about it because I didn't feel that it was beautiful, right?


00;19;04;19 - 00;19;09;21

Lanette

Yeah, that makes sense. Did you get any kind of counseling after placement after Michael was born?


00;19;10;03 - 00;19;23;01

Candace

So. So the agency offered some counseling for the first year. I didn't really take them up on it. And then it all just vanished.


00;19;23;04 - 00;19;24;28

Lanette

They were even offered after that. Wow.


00;19;25;03 - 00;19;48;12

Candace

Now, now. And I imagine have gone to them and ask. They might have, but I didn't know to ask. I didn't ask, you know, And again, I was really focusing on disassociating from it. I didn't I didn't want to deal with it. The only time I let myself really think about it and be enmeshed in it was when the updates came.


00;19;48;12 - 00;19;58;02

Lanette

And so how do you feel like others could be more supportive of these first parents and maybe even help before these kinds of situations arise?


00;19;58;17 - 00;20;35;24

Candace

Yeah, I think, you know, I think what's really, really important is we need to be healthy, pretty much need to try to prevent them from becoming first parents. You know, we need to give them those resources, information and support. You know, there's current research being done and there's a book being written by Gretchen Sisson that's going to be talking about how the majority of first mothers come to it, not really out of choice, but because they feel backed into a corner, because they don't have support, they don't have finances, they have other children that they already can't take care of.


00;20;35;28 - 00;21;16;19

Candace

All of these things. But they're choosing a permanent solution to really a temporary problem. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that we we could be spending a lot more time, effort and and financial resources to helping young pregnant people earlier on in their situation and giving them the resources and education. The other thing too, that was really lacking was because it wasn't really known back in my day, but what was lacking was the recognition that adoption that separates the child from the mother is a life long trauma.


00;21;16;19 - 00;21;43;19

Candace

And it's and even though infants are pre-verbal, they are traumatized and it lasts their whole life right? If I had known that, there's no way. There's absolutely no way. And that's where a lot of my regret and shame and guilt come from is what did I do? Because I was told, again, it's beautiful and and they're a blank slate.


00;21;44;02 - 00;22;05;29

Candace

You know, my son would be a blank slate, you know, get it, get them to the new family as soon as you can so that they can imprint on them and all of that. And I'd bleep it all, you know, and I think everybody did. I mean, I don't I actually don't think that like my counselor or really the agency necessarily itself, they weren't doing these things to be cruel.


00;22;05;29 - 00;22;12;13

Candace

They weren't. They were they thought it was also the wise choice, the smart thing to do. Right. Because they.


00;22;12;13 - 00;22;13;11

Lanette

Didn't know. Yeah.


00;22;13;19 - 00;22;37;04

Candace

Yeah, because they did. And they didn't have the education that they needed to understand that the lifelong impact that this will have. So yeah, so if we can, if we can do more both about educating people about the lifelong impact of relinquishment on the children and on the first families and that and just basically a lot of more support, financial support or.


00;22;37;20 - 00;22;46;23

Lanette

I think those are both key. Thank you. How do you think your experiences with Michael and with relinquishing him, how do you think that led you to where you are today?


00;22;48;07 - 00;23;25;15

Candace

Yeah, I think that that single decision at 21 years old has shaped everything that has come after. Probably the biggest impact is I would have children. I would both have Michael or have had Michael, but I probably would have had other children, too. The choice to not have any more children was a direct result of not wanting or not being unable to try to explain to Michael why one child, another child was good enough to keep, and he wasn't.


00;23;25;26 - 00;23;34;11

Candace

I could never do that. So yeah, I think that's the biggest thing. But everything else that has come after has been impacted by the fact that I am a first mother.


00;23;34;20 - 00;23;42;22

Lanette

Looking back, I know it's impossible to really know this, but how do you think having an open adoption from the start might have changed your experience?


00;23;42;22 - 00;24;09;02

Candace

When I look back and I have journals, I have a lot of things that I've used to to really help me transport myself back, to know what I was thinking and feeling at the time. And I look back, you know, getting the updates was paramount to how I felt now, even though I was still dissociating and really not dealing with things very well.


00;24;09;14 - 00;24;33;05

Candace

Had those updates continued, I think I would be in a much better place. I would have been a much better place all the way through his childhood, just knowing that he was okay, you know, having some communication between us would have been paramount, because I still think that Michael, you know, his family were wonderful. He had a wonderful family.


00;24;33;05 - 00;24;53;26

Candace

He grew up in this amazing community with with an amazing extended family. I mean, he pretty much did have everything that I wanted him to have. So had I known, it would have been a lot better. And I think that's I think I can say that confidently as well, because we have this great relationship now.


00;24;54;13 - 00;25;12;24

Lanette

Yeah, Yeah. I feel like your perspective is so unique and so valuable because you do have that relationship now where you did before. But and it's of course so hard to know what it would have been like if you couldn't have had that while he was young as well. And just his life.


00;25;12;24 - 00;25;43;21

Candace

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think, you know, one of the reasons, one of many reasons, but one of the big reasons that that I ended up choosing that family with David in them is they specifically laid it out that they would be talking about adoption. He would never not know he wasn't adopted. He would he would they would share things about me with him, you know, that it would even though we wouldn't be connected physically, there would be an openness about his who he is and his identity.


00;25;44;00 - 00;26;05;04

Candace

And I think that that's key. And part of that that opened up when I guess what I what I'm trying to say is when I talk about openness, I'm not talking about specifically physical openness. I'm talking about openness of mind and being willing to communicate and talk about it. Because I think that there's a lot of my experience is in meeting people.


00;26;05;04 - 00;26;28;19

Candace

There are a lot of adoptive parents who are not comfortable even talking about adoption to their with their kids. And I think that's so important. I have yet to meet an adopted person, an adult adoptive person who hasn't at some point dealt with feelings of abandonment and dreaming or thinking about the ghost kingdom. You know what I mean?


00;26;28;19 - 00;26;51;06

Candace

When I say go stand up. Yeah. So every single one, even if they have had the most perfect, beautiful, wonderful family, right? They still have those. And if they can't share that with their adoptive parents, they're they're going to miss out on so much. The child's going to miss out, but so are the parents. So the parents need to be comfortable.


00;26;51;06 - 00;27;10;00

Candace

And basically what that means, they need to do the work. They need to have gone into it having done their work, because I've heard too many stories where, like, let's say a child asks about their birth family. I just even have just a random question. So and but the adoptive parent, if they haven't done their work, they may feel threatened by that.


00;27;10;00 - 00;27;26;14

Candace

They don't really have any reason to, but they feel threatened by it just by the child thinking about them. So their automatic response is, oh, but, but we love you so much and and we chose you and you know, all of those things. But what that does is it makes the conversation about the adoptive parent, not about the child.


00;27;26;24 - 00;27;47;05

Candace

And so they see these things and then they don't aren't able to acknowledge what the child is feeling and experiencing. And and even though I think those responses are they're well-meaning, they're not meant to be mean or you saying that it results in the child learning that the topic is off limits. You don't want to make your parent uncomfortable.


00;27;47;05 - 00;28;04;08

Candace

You don't want them to feel sad, you don't want all of that. And that's particularly true for adopted people because they've already been abandoned once and they're not going to take a chance that they be them again, because that's what it feels like to a kid and to adults to actually, I know adults that feel the same. Right.


00;28;04;08 - 00;28;05;23

Candace

So yeah, no. Yeah.


00;28;06;15 - 00;28;28;12

Lanette

Yeah. I agree 100%. Yeah, it's very well said. So just one more question kind of on this thread of open adoption relationships and that openness since forming this relationship with David, how has this kind of open adoption relationship affected your processing, your healing or your trauma?


00;28;28;12 - 00;28;53;21

Candace

Yeah, I, I really don't think that I would be anywhere near as far along in my recovery without him. You know, when after Michael died, my husband Tom complete actually. I'll talk about Tom probably a little later, but but he's super like the most supportive person I could have ever asked for. Right? But in the months after Michael passed, I just felt so loss.


00;28;53;21 - 00;29;17;19

Candace

I just didn't. I didn't know how to to find help and and, you know, like, I was going online and I was trying to like, I found compassionate friends, which is for parents who have lost children. And they had some good resources. And I could read some things, but it wasn't quite right. Right. Because I'd get into these groups like online or things, and people were like, well, tell us about it.


00;29;18;16 - 00;29;36;03

Candace

And I didn't know anything. So. So suddenly now I'm grief stricken. So then I went to like first moms groups, and that helped a little bit. But it still wasn't quite right. Well, I ended up coming to a place where it's like, you know what? There's one person who knows exactly how it feels that David he has had a double loss as well.


00;29;36;03 - 00;29;59;23

Candace

He lost his wife and now he lost his child. I just happened to the same person twice. And we I sent an email to him. It was probably two months after Michael died and just really was as vulnerable as I could be and just be like, I am lost, I am flailing, I don't know what to do. And he wrote right back and he says, I am exactly in the same place.


00;29;59;23 - 00;30;29;03

Candace

And that was really when things blossomed and we just back and forth, emails back and forth, back and forth, and just really giving each other the opportunity to vent, to express, to be sad, to not have to explain to anybody. And we really just bloomed and blossomed after that. But yeah, I really believe that had David not been open to that communication, I wouldn't be where I am right now for sure.


00;30;29;03 - 00;30;31;12

Lanette

That vulnerability that's really. Yeah.


00;30;32;01 - 00;30;56;16

Candace

Yeah. And his again the openness that he had to like that. I want to share this this little story when we when I went and met Michael for the first time, that one day that we had together was Michael and I and his dad, David and my husband Tom. And we spent the whole day together. And then we ended up going out to a restaurant and we're sitting at this little restaurant and and people are walking by and saying hi.


00;30;56;17 - 00;31;20;20

Candace

Right? And a person stop and be like, Hi, David, how are you? You know? And Michael's there and they're talking. And David immediately to me, who? Oh, this is Michael's mom. Like, right away, that very first meeting. And I just about fell out of my chair because I'd never been so open and he just automatically was and that has been the case from day one.


00;31;20;26 - 00;31;23;00

Candace

And it has really made all the difference.


00;31;23;17 - 00;31;24;12

Lanette

That's beautiful.


00;31;24;22 - 00;31;25;18

Candace

Yeah. Yeah.


00;31;27;05 - 00;31;41;29

Lanette

So there's a lot of unethical and questionable practices in adoption. I feel like we've talked about a fair amount. Yeah. What do you wish that potential adoptive parents would think about or know before considering adoption in light of those practices?


00;31;43;08 - 00;32;11;05

Candace

You know, I think that the most important thing and it and I'm hoping it's becoming more common but they need to realize that although adoption can be beautiful, it begins with trauma. It begins by severing a child from their their family. Right. The they need to understand they need to get education about the long term impacts of that.


00;32;11;22 - 00;32;30;27

Candace

You know, studies have shown that adopted people are more likely to have suicidal thoughts, more likely to attempt suicide, higher incidence of mental health issues. They're more highly represented in mental health facilities, all of these things. Right. And and I hope there are more studies coming out soon because I feel like that's just an area that's really been missed.


00;32;32;04 - 00;32;58;15

Candace

So they need to know that going into it and I think going into it, then you can prepare you can you can you can if you know that your child or children is going to be dealing with issues of abandonment, you can be prepared to look for the signs and be ready. And that's so incredibly valuable. But you can't get there if you don't have the education, if you're not if you're not open to it or you're not given it.


00;32;59;07 - 00;33;01;05

Candace

And I think that's super important.


00;33;02;14 - 00;33;09;25

Lanette

Well said. What advice would you give to other first parents who are searching for their children or hoping to be searched for?


00;33;10;14 - 00;33;35;08

Candace

Yeah, you know, it's so, so hard. I think that the searching I you know, I am fortunate I didn't have to search. He found me right away. He wanted to find me right away. So I. I don't really have great insights into while they're searching. What I can see, though, is the number one most important thing if they do reconnect, is to let that adopted person lead the way.


00;33;35;08 - 00;33;58;20

Candace

Let them make the decisions about how the relationship is going to develop, how I mean, all of it. They need to have that control over it because they need we need to remember that they didn't have choice. And even if we were coerced, even if we were in a position as the as the first parent, where we didn't feel like we had a choice, we're still the adult.


00;33;58;20 - 00;34;15;13

Candace

We still yeah, that there is still responsibility that falls on our shoulders. So we need to let the adoptee take complete control over all of it and be as open as we can. And it's the that's the hardest thing to do in my opinion. Yeah.


00;34;16;18 - 00;34;27;19

Lanette

Well said. What advice would you give to other first parents or others in the community who are processing trauma and loss therapy?


00;34;29;08 - 00;35;04;07

Candace

Find it, Find a good therapist Adoption competent therapist for a first parents relinquishment competent because there's a difference between adoption and relinquishment. Okay, so first, parents need to have adoption competent or relinquishment competent or trauma informed because technically it's very much a trauma. If they can't find someone or don't have the money to pay for therapy, which is because it's really expensive and it's hard to find someone they need to join a first parents support group.


00;35;04;24 - 00;35;31;08

Candace

So basically find your tribe. I know that the very first time that I got into a room with other first parents, it was the relief that I didn't have to explain anything. They knew exactly where I was coming from. There was no judgment that I can't I can't overemphasize important. It was to just be in a room with people that knew exactly what I had been through.


00;35;32;04 - 00;35;45;16

Candace

Yeah. And most of those you can find, they're free. You can find them online now. You can find it in-person and online. And yeah, there's there's great, great groups there right now for support.


00;35;46;25 - 00;35;53;00

Lanette

Thank you. Yeah. Great advice. And then you've also talked about your husband that I would love to hear more how he has supported you.


00;35;53;09 - 00;36;10;27

Candace

So so I first of all, I am super lucky to have such a great spouse. So Tom and I have known each other since we were kids. We knew each other. You know, in high school we were just friends back then. We didn't get together as a couple until we were 27. But he knew me when I was pregnant.


00;36;10;27 - 00;36;37;13

Candace

And actually he's the only person who felt my tummy when I was about to start a family because I was pretty much alone. But he he saw me when I was eight months pregnant and he came over and visited. We hadn't seen each other in over a year. He was shocked that I was pregnant and but he came over and he sat with me and I basically showed him in on what was happening and what I was going to do.


00;36;37;13 - 00;37;06;10

Candace

And and he held my hand and just let me cry and didn't judge me, didn't demand anything, didn't try to make it better, didn't try to fix it. And then when we got together, it was six years after Michael was born. You know, he already knew the history, which was helpful. But I remember the first Michael's first birthday when we were together about two weeks ahead of time, said, Michael's work is coming up and it's going to be hard.


00;37;07;01 - 00;37;45;04

Candace

It's always hard. And I just need you to know that it's not going to be very present, essentially. And he turned to me, it's like, Oh, what should we do to celebrate? And I'm like, I don't celebrate this. This is not a celebratory thinking. It's like, yes, since you gave birth, you have a son, it's his birthday. And so he took me out to dinner and from that initial moment, first of all, he tried to form it in a way that I could find some beauty in it for myself, that to try to find my sense of being, you know, I may not be a parent, but I'm still a mother.


00;37;45;13 - 00;38;05;06

Candace

Right. And he tried to try to point that out to me. But since then, every single birthday day, anniversary, Christmas, Mother's Day, all those time, about two weeks ahead of time, it's like, how you doing? How is this year? What would you like to do this year? Do you need time alone? Do you need a hot bubble bath?


00;38;05;06 - 00;38;30;23

Candace

Do you want to go out to dinner? You know, and just giving me the opportunity to think about it ahead of time. It helped me prepare and gave me permission to prepare. And so I think that's one of the number one things anybody who is supporting someone can do is be present. You don't have to try to fix it and then just help the person find their own answers.


00;38;30;23 - 00;38;49;04

Candace

Yeah, I think that Tom has been amazing. And when when Michael died, he was right by my side and has just supported me so, so much for the anybody who reads the book, you will get a very good sense of Tom. And I've I've had a couple of people, more than a couple, but a bunch of people that it means like Tom can't be that good.


00;38;49;04 - 00;39;06;05

Candace

He can't be that nice. And I'm like, when it comes to Michael, he is he has just been a stellar person. Sometimes he can be not a nice guy and we certainly still fight. But when it comes to Michael, he is. Yeah, he's been the best support person I could have ever asked for.


00;39;07;02 - 00;39;16;20

Lanette

It was amazing. Yeah, great advice too. I love that. So be present. Yeah. I'll just be there to help as you work through.


00;39;17;12 - 00;39;21;15

Candace

Yeah. Bounce off ideas is a great way. Yeah.


00;39;22;16 - 00;39;31;23

Lanette

Thank you for sharing that. And do you have any other thoughts on ways that others can support first parents or others through traumas and struggles?


00;39;32;25 - 00;40;00;09

Candace

Oh, you know, I think that there's what I have done is, I think, somewhat unconventional in that because while partly because I live in remote Alaska, I don't have access to, you know, in-person therapy. I don't know a lot of those things. And Zoom therapies is fairly new right? So I really used a lot of more unconventional ways and learning to do things on my own.


00;40;00;20 - 00;40;03;14

Candace

Yeah, I, I wish I had better things to offer.


00;40;04;14 - 00;40;14;01

Lanette

I think that was great advice. All right. What do you feel like some of the biggest challenges the adoption community faces are okay.


00;40;14;09 - 00;40;33;27

Candace

Challenges. So I think that it's actually hard to narrow it down for me. But but there are that yeah, there's a lot of things that that are that come up for me. I think some of the biggest ones I was trying to narrow down because you gave me the question at a time, I think ethics, money and secrecy.


00;40;34;26 - 00;41;03;10

Candace

So in talking about those things, when it comes to ethics, and this is specifically when we're talking about first parents. So I think there needs to be a requirement for comprehensive education regarding the impact of relinquishment on the relinquishing parents and child, I think there needs to be a nationwide laws to prevent flying pregnant parents to adoption friendly states.


00;41;04;16 - 00;41;31;17

Candace

I think that needs to be implementation of a standard waiting period before parental rights can be terminated. I'm actually I'm horrified that in some states people who have just given birth signed away their rights like 48 hours, just know that should not be allowed. And then there's a whole bunch more. But those are kind of the real specific things there when it's in terms of of as it pertain to adopted people.


00;41;31;29 - 00;42;00;26

Candace

I think there needs to be legal recognition, their human rights and civil rights for all adult adopted people. I personally advocate for opening all government documents as they pertain to adoptees historical, genetic, legal identity, all of that, including an unaltered birth certificate. So one of the things that happens in adoption in the US, in order for the adoption to happen, they lose their identity.


00;42;01;05 - 00;42;26;14

Candace

The person they that original birth certificate is sealed up and tucked away, never to be seen again and a new altered. And what some people just say false birth certificate is issued that's you know, that's taking away somebody's identity. And I don't think that should be happening. I think in general, of course, money is a huge problem. Adoption is a multibillion dollar industry in the US.


00;42;27;12 - 00;43;04;20

Candace

I think we could make it a requirement that any information about fees paid or to be paid should be available to all parties ahead of time, including the birth family. You know, I think that needs to, again, transparency need to be transferred. Yeah, absolutely. I think another big one is educating adoption professionals. We need to implement balanced trauma, informed education resources for people that are working in adoption, and it needs to happen at the college level like in social work programs, in psychology programs.


00;43;04;25 - 00;43;23;20

Candace

But it also needs that it can be also implemented through continuing education for people that are already out in the field. And then probably the number one most important thing we need to listen to adoptive people. Their lived experiences should be guiding everything that we're doing to create change in adoption. Yeah.


00;43;24;17 - 00;43;27;25

Lanette

That was incredibly well said. Oh, my goodness. Thank you.


00;43;28;11 - 00;43;28;21

Candace

Well, that.


00;43;28;21 - 00;43;32;28

Lanette

Was a great list. I can tell that you're very informed and that you've been researching.


00;43;33;02 - 00;43;55;25

Candace

And I and just so you know, I am planning to use my story, my memoir as a case study and how things did work well and how they didn't work well and how how we can how we can learn lessons and find ways to educate people about openness and adoption, about ethics, all of those things. That's really.


00;43;55;25 - 00;44;01;27

Lanette

Important. Wow, That's incredible. Oh, it's fantastic. I don't even like to follow questions.


00;44;01;27 - 00;44;02;24

Candace

That was so loaded.


00;44;03;23 - 00;44;08;16

Lanette

All right. Do you feel like you want to talk at all about how perceptions have shifted over time?


00;44;10;07 - 00;44;33;01

Candace

So I know it's like for me, I'll just adjust, I think just briefly is yeah, for many adopted people. And I think first parents and perhaps this is true for adoptive parents, but I haven't talked to them about that specifically. You can certainly share if you have anything but the the terminology of coming out of the fog. Right.


00;44;33;20 - 00;45;01;16

Candace

I was definitely in the fog for a very, very, very long time. And so in terms of my perception and a lot of that changed specifically by listening to adult adoptive people, but it was even more than that. So my first experience being in a support group with mixed with people from all the constellation, right? So, so birth parents, adoptive parents, adopted people.


00;45;02;21 - 00;45;33;01

Candace

I sat in that room and they gave the adoptive people first voice because again, they were the ones that never had a voice in all of this. And I sat there and every single person that shared I related to it. And then when I came out of that meeting, I was like, Oh my God, I'm adopted. I did not I, I was adopted.


00;45;33;28 - 00;46;05;14

Candace

So I my mother divorced my my birth father when I was about two months old, she remarried right away and her second husband forced my birth father to relinquish his rights. And a new certificate was issued. And I didn't find out until I was about 13 years old. Now, when I found out I was happy because, my stepfather or my dad, who I knew of as my dad had sexually abused me.


00;46;06;10 - 00;46;34;06

Candace

So when I found out he wasn't actually my real father, I was ecstatic and I didn't really care who the other guy was. I was just glad that this guy wasn't right. But it took until literally in my forties for me to recognize that I had extreme feelings of abandonment. I mean, my father didn't protect me from this guy who sexually abused me.


00;46;34;06 - 00;46;54;17

Candace

My father left me. He signed away his right. So all of those feelings that I remember having as a kid came flooding back. And I'm like, Oh my God, I did that to my son. It was horrible but valuable because it really did help me come out of the fog. I hope that made sense.


00;46;54;17 - 00;47;01;01

Lanette

Wow. Yeah, that's heavy. That's a.


00;47;01;01 - 00;47;36;19

Candace

Lot. It's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, just. Yeah, reeling from trying to figure out all these connections and how important that is, again, how important it is to have honesty and openness. I mean, if I had known along, I think it would have been different, you know? So. Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, my, my feel like I have done a major shift in my perceptions from from even the time that Michael and I were first reunited until now.


00;47;36;19 - 00;47;36;29

Candace

Yeah.


00;47;38;27 - 00;47;44;08

Lanette

I really appreciate you sharing all of these thoughts and experiences. Do you have anything else you'd like to talk about?


00;47;44;25 - 00;48;16;05

Candace

I don't think so. I appreciate the opportunity to come and talk with you. I think that really your role as adoptive parent and what you're doing with this podcast is absolutely one of the most important things. You're reaching people who I can't reach without you. Right? You have a connection and you're sharing information that's going to be so valuable to to really creating better lives for everybody.


00;48;16;05 - 00;48;35;15

Lanette

Yeah. Thank you. That is absolutely our goal. And just like you've talked about the importance of listening and transparency and just openness to learning more, it's such a huge long process and I really appreciate you sharing and helping us. Another piece of that puzzle.


00;48;35;15 - 00;48;44;13

Candace

Thank you. Thank you so much.


00;48;44;13 - 00;49;00;19

Shaun

Wow, what a great conversation with Candace. Candace, we're so grateful for you in sharing your story with us and especially helping us see from a different perspective. I learned a lot as I listened to your conversation. 


00;49;02;04 - 00;49;24;00

Lanette

One of my big takeaways from this discussion was when Candace talked about how we should be helping first parents before they become first parents. I loved the way that she put that, and it's so important. I think it's something we do need to be talking about. How can we help avoid situations where trauma through adoption is going to happen?


00;49;24;00 - 00;49;44;08

Lanette

Right? Like, obviously we feel like we've been super blessed by adoption, but I don't know what our kids are going to feel as they grow up. But if we can create a society where we're supporting each other better and making the need for adoption less frequent, I think that's a great goal.


00;49;45;04 - 00;50;35;26

Shaun

I think something that really stood out to me as an adoptive parent was around the conversation about talking about adoption with adoptees, especially as they're younger. She highlighted that she knows of some where adoptive parents just don't make that part of the conversation or it's not a safe conversation for children to to talk to their parents about. And for me and I think for anyone who has adopted or is considering adoption, we need to be comfortable having really open conversations with our children about adoption and especially as a parent, that being okay when the feelings toward adoption aren't always positive because they won't always be and we need to be okay.


00;50;35;26 - 00;50;48;25

Shaun

Having those conversations and being able to kind of check our ego at the door and help our kids have conversations that they need to have so that they feel whole and heard and can question things.


00;50;49;05 - 00;51;06;19

Lanette

Yeah, I love that. Creating that safety. I think she said psychological safety, which is one of my favorite terms anyway. Yeah. Want to create that safe space, that psychological safety where our kids feel like they can really open up and share what they're feeling. We want that to be a safe thing for all adoptees.


00;51;06;29 - 00;51;13;07

Shaun

Yeah, I have so many good takeaways that I'm walking away with from this episode and I'm just really grateful because.


00;51;14;00 - 00;51;40;15

Lanette

I also did think it was so beautiful how she and Michael's adoptive father built this really beautiful relationship after tragedy and through so much grief. But it did really think that was so poignant that they both had this tether to one another where they were able to fill some of that void. Obviously not like really feel it, but to help and to grieve together.


00;51;40;15 - 00;51;42;19

Lanette

I thought that was so beautiful. Yeah.


00;51;42;19 - 00;51;49;21

Shaun

And I think it just highlights the importance of connection in the adoption world. In the adoption space.


00;51;50;00 - 00;51;52;15

Lanette

I agree that yeah, we need each other when community.


00;51;52;15 - 00;52;02;11

Shaun

Yeah, we need each other. We can process trauma and understand perspectives when we have each other.


00;52;03;10 - 00;52;05;13

Lanette

That's beautiful.


00;52;05;13 - 00;52;52;27

Shaun

Thanks so much again to Candace for sharing your story with us and thanks to each of you for listening to the Open Adoption Project. We'll be back in your feed in two weeks.